Owls_are_cool

24 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

To clarify: it seems what you and others want is for BSA to not pay one thin dime more than has already been spent

No, I want the people directly responsible for the abuse and cover-up to pay, not the scouts today. Is it my fault that many of these people are dead, so their bill is passed on to me and my troop's scouts?

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

BSA pays NOTHING

BSA is scouts and scouters. To say they are not paying nothing is wrong. The adult leaders and the scouts in my troop are already paying in higher registration fees and less support from council and national. 

20 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Again, these are VICTIMS. Not liars (maybe some are, but likely rare). Certainly not "vultures".

I dare any of the BSA-can-do-no-wrong defenders to read even 5 of these letters. You won't, of course.

Again, most scouters are not child molesters, nor do they try to cover it up on behalf of the BSA, yet these scouters will be affected the most by the bankruptcy. It is the scouts and scouters that will get the brunt of higher cost of the program and it will be much harder to run the local program, because of cutbacks at Council and National. Covid has already shown what the bankruptcy's impact will be. Surely there is a win-win for the scouts and for the victims of past abuse, but I do not see it headed that way.

25 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Specifically, they are 100% legally and financially accountable.

Therefore, since my son and I are members of said corporation, the BSA, then we are expected to fund the victim's fund or leave the BSA. All the time and money we invested towards scouts will no longer go to scouts. You can not say that you are only impacting the BSA, the organization.

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

well, sorry but too bad.

I'll be fighting for the scouts in my troop until the battle is lost. Sadly, I have to battle scouters that are okay with scouts getting the brunt of the "accountability", because they are part of the money stream. 

28 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

they all talk about wanting BSA to be held accountable.

You cannot hold an inanimate object accountable for anything. Instead, this bankruptcy and settlement process is expecting the scouts in my troop to pay for a victims fund (either directly through dues or indirectly through the loss of program). My point is that is wrong to fix a wrong with another wrong. All of this while the actual abusers and those that did not deal with them see very little in accountability. 

I can tell you this, my council is taking youth protection more seriously than ever. They are expecting all adult leadership to be fully trained. Short Term Camping standards must be complied with. Etc. There is no perfect solution, but scouter's in my council are taking this seriously.

My District's scout numbers in Montana are down by half in the past year....mostly due to cub scout numbers. The BSA should be promoting first time joins or rejoins for free this summer (or something like that).

15 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

So what?

My COR, CC, and DE had to remove two parents from the committee , because they were bullying scouts. Those two parents lawyered up and I, as scoutmaster, was made out as the criminal in this process. 

Myself and leaders in my troop have put their necks on the line for youth protection, yet as we struggled through this mess the BSA and CO could be held liable, because someone did not fix this fast enough? 

I am a member of the BSA. So when the BSA is being sued, I am being sued. You know who is not being sued? The people actually responsible for the abuse. 

36 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

here's a list of ideas that plaintiffs' lawyers have suggested, implied, or might agree with.

How many of the 85,000 victims and their families did not report the sexual child abuse to the police? If the BSA can be sued for not acting in the past, what about the families that did nothing?

Many Chartered Organizations are struggling to find volunteers to help with their organization, much less for a Boy Scout troop they are chartering. Our COR has a scout in our troop and the previous COR resigned about the time her son got his Eagle rank. Since, my troop is fed by packs that may not be associated with the CO, finding a replacement COR from scout parents will be harder to find.

And boy is having the right COR is important for the Troop and the CO, because they select the adult volunteers that work with scouts and run the Troop admin. The COR has to be involved and make immediate changes if the scoutmaster is determined to be harmful to scouts. 

Summer camp in Montana last summer, masks were only needed in food lines. Our temperature was taken twice a day. My troop had to do everything together and did not interact with scouts from other troops. No outbreaks at camp and nobody in my troop came down with covid.

We do not require masks in outdoor activities. Parents have been good keeping their scouts out of activities if they have been exposed to covid. My son played basketball without masks...a game with a lot of contact...no outbreaks. One player could not play for 10 days, because parents got it. The numbers in Montana show that the virus is running its course and activities are getting back to normal. 

Then again Montanans have practiced social distancing for over 100 years. We do not like people in our personal space. 

If the end result is innocent scouts and scouters forced to pay into a victim fund to keep the program running for their scouts, my first reaction is not to complain. We'll move to another organization or quit scouting. Fixing one wrong with another wrong might be legal, but there is a point where scouts will not see the value in the program and cut their losses. 

34 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Since BSA implemented YPT, over 11,000 additional abuse cases have occurred.

Has those responsible for these over 11,000 instances of abuse been convicted in criminal court? How about those that swept the abuse under the rug? Sounds like my son is expected to sell popcorn for a victim's fund instead of his scouting program. Not as bad a scouts being abused in the past, but still wrong.

6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Every LC has a provision in their articles of incorporation that state, unequivocally, that if National refuses to renew the charter, the assets go to National.

That cannot be good for my council.

16 minutes ago, jr56 said:

I must admit, I am seriously thinking about waiting  on any FOS contribution.  I am all for supporting Scouts, not some lawyers get rich quick scheme.

In my council, popcorn sales and FOS contributions at certain levels from a troop by April result in scout store discounts, camp discounts, and a number of leaders can go to summer camp with their scouts for free. It would be problematic if this fundraising and the "perks" that go with it had to be transferred to a victims fund. The result is charging all scouts and adults in my unit $30 a head to fund a victims fund. 

Personally, I am happy to invest in scouts, but if I am expected to bail out scouters responsible for abuse, I will no longer donate to FOS and instead donate directly to the troop. Scouts already do not like selling popcorn, so we'll fundraise in a different way, so the troop benefits 100%. 

Question: Montana Council has a large endowment fund that maintains the campgrounds that the council runs. It also lowers the cost of council operations and they can offer summer camps more cheaply for scouts. Montana Council does not charge a registration fee for scouts at recharter time. 

Will this endowment fund be liquidated to fund the victim compensation fund?

Again, the end result of this lawsuit will punish the scouts in my unit. They will be the ones stuck with higher fees because of liability insurance. Availability of summer camps will be more limited and more expensive, though one could argue that is a good thing. Etc. The people responsible for the abuse are not paying a dime. 

15 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Scouting is a practice of applying the Scout Oath and Law instead of rules and policies. The culture (or is it counter-culture) wants rules and polices.

When I my son joined his current troop, the committee was big on having scouts and adults sign behavior agreements. Anyone breaking the agreement can be expelled from the troop and it was used eventually by certain parents to remove scouts they did not like. Since the troop split, I have been just using the scout oath and law. It covers every situation and it allows scouts to make mistakes and learn from them. 

54 minutes ago, yknot said:

My kids have been in all kinds of environments

I think this is a good thing (as long it does not involve assult and bullying). Looking back at scoutmaster training, they spent a lot of time on the program, but very little time on the proper way to interact with scouts. Woodbadge did a better job of this in that it demonstrated the patrol method and taught a bunch of interpersonal skills. (my experience though)

I just reminded myself that scouting has a version of "winning at all costs" and it is called "Eagle Rank at all costs." The second I, as scoutmaster, started to work on things outside of rank advancement, I started to get flak from some parents. I'd challenge the scouts to come up with a schedule of 9 campouts this year and determine the locations and most of the time troop meetings generally spent planning these. But some parents do not see the value of this, because it reduces the advancement progress at troop meetings. This also forces scouts to work on merit badges outside of troop meetings, which bothers the "Eagle Rank at all costs" parents also. This causes friction, but not to the level of parents/coaches wanting their son to get to the Little League World Series. 

What can reduce abuse in the BSA? It has to come down to the COs directly vetting adult leaders. Both of the CORs I worked with knew me and knew my character. The troop had a recent experience with a bad scoutmaster, so they (along with the COR) did some work to vet me. I had some time at ASM to prove my temperament. It has to be a team effort with accountability all around. There might be a role for unit commissioners in this process, but that would mean that they have to spend more time with the troop outside of key 3 and committee meetings. If we get the right people into these positions, then the abuse problem decreases. Needs to be more than "Are you a warm body? Congrats you are out next scoutmaster."

As a coach I would occasionally take a player home after practice or a game, whether or not my son is with me. For boy scouts, I would have to wait in the parking lot with another leader until someone in the scouts family picks up the scout. Or the other leader would have to ride with me as I take the scout home. Scout parents are not allowed to waive the youth protection rules to get their kids home (single mother working during a troop meeting example.)

Scouting does have higher expectations for leaders in terms of youth protection. In general, scouting does not have the win at all costs element that sports can have. If I have a scout not motivated to advance in rank, I am not to bothered by that. I worry more about how scouts treat each other at camp. The only time I raise my voice is when there is a fight or someone is not observing the blood circle.

On 4/15/2021 at 10:29 PM, Treflienne said:

I liked a lot of what I heard at Woodbadge about scouting, and found it very encouraging.  However, the vision displayed there (and in the BSA literature) does not seem to be what the troop committee, SM, and ASMs want.

My troop guide in Woodbadge stressed that the ticket must be achievable and not rely on others to complete the ticket. I had the patrol method on one of my tickets, but that worked since I was (and still am) a scoutmaster and I was able to make the change. I'd talk with your committee chair and scoutmaster to see if the troop needs a task done for the benefit of the troop. Could be something as simple as improving parent communications or procuring  a piece of equipment that the troop needs. Then go back to your WB Troop Guide with a new ticket proposal. 

Tickets also need not be involved in scouting. Could be something you want to work on at work, that indirectly helps you become a better adult volunteer in Scouting. 

Changing the direction of a troop is not a good ticket, because odds are you will not be able to complete buy-in for change and if leadership goes for it, it usually takes several years for it to be implemented. When I worked on my troop's patrol method, I instantly got opposition from parents, so navigating that was a learning experience for me.

I have been a den leader, scoutmaster, baseball coach, and basketball coach. The local scouting organizations I have been a part of have done an excellent job keeping youth safe. Little League baseball has background checks for coaches, do not have the two deep leadership/no one-on-one rules that the BSA has. I coached for a Christian school and they too only have the background check and cases where I was the only adult at practice. 

I have to give kudos to my district day camp leadership, because they take youth protection seriously and model the desired behaviors to scouts and adult volunteers. I learned a lot from this and practice those behaviors with my own troop to the best of my ability. Sadly my troop had an instance of a scoutmaster punching a scout a year before my son joined. A group of adults associated with the troop did the right thing and got him to resign. As a result, youth protection has become part of the DNA of my troop. Though the troop had to remove several of the adults from the group, because they wanted to remove a scout, because they did not like what he posted on social media (adult bullying). 

I think the online YPT training should be streamlined to the important points. Then the unit should demonstrate in some way that they are following YPT (Unit Commissioner? JTE?). I would find a way to positively reward units for proactively putting Youth Protection first, instead of coming out with another series of requirements/paperwork/etc troops have to submit to. I also agree that scouts should learn what behaviors are not acceptable from their adult leaders and have a way to report this to the BSA. Keep this simple also.

TheNow does deserve justice. The people responsible should be put in prison and/or be forced to pay restitution. Though they may dead for all I know and cannot get due process. A lot of good people willed property and sums of money for the benefit of scouts today, not to bail out pedophiles and BSA leadership who covered for them. Scouts sell popcorn for their program, not to help the BSA settle a lawsuit. 

One positive on all of this plus covid, is that my troop is getting back to basics. For the cost of one summer camp, we can fund a year of camping trips in my state and significantly reduce what each scout must pay annually.

6 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Like others who have similarly unleashed on me (personally), you really have no idea what I did or did not "invest into the program" and continue to assume. I would ask you not do that, please.

All I did is point out is that the lawsuit will punish the scouts in my troop and punish the adults associated with the troop who invested time and money into the program. The wrong people are being punished.

5 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Sorry to deflect and opt out of a re-re-rehash. 

Okay, I'll put you on the side that wants my son to pay instead of those responsible. Higher fees, no summer camps to go to, etc will be the outcome of this bankruptcy, which will punish the scouts instead of those responsible. Come to think of it, I invested a bunch of time and money into the program, only to be used to bailout those responsible, instead of benefiting my troop.