Mrjeff

Thanks, I'm failures with the Arrow of Light.  So is an AOL unit made up of kids who have earned it, or are in their 2nd Year of WEBELOS and are working on it?

On 3/6/2023 at 5:56 AM, scoutldr said:

Well, if you follow that pattern...Motorboating.

Everybody knows what BOAT really stands for:  Break Out Another Thousand😂. And any boat owner knows that a boat is just a hole in the water into which money is thrown 🤣.  God bless and Scout On my friends!!!

I'm mainly involved with the OA and Eagle BORs so please excuse my ignorance as I have been away from the Cub world for a long time.  Could someone please tell me what an AOL unit is?

I always like to rely on personal experiences and real world observations.  I've been in Scouting for a long time and I have three adult sons and two adult daughters who participated in Scouting along with two grandsons.   Out of this group I have 3 generations of Eagles that include two sons and one grandsons.   My oldest son started going to Scout camp when he was Cub Scout age, about 8 years old.  He joined the Boy Scouts at age 11 and by the time he was 15 he had all of the camping that he needed, earned Star and quit.   The other two were bound by the old Cub Scout rules of no camping except one night during their WEBELOS year and that had to be with a Scout troop.  I made sure that they focused on CS activities and this time I  stuck to those rules.  Those guys stuck with it, earned Eagle and had a good time doing it.  They each stayed until they were 18 and one of them moved into a leadership position and is a three bead Woodbadger.   The difference between my Star Scout and the two Eagle Scouts was the Scouting burnout that was experienced by my Star son and the lack of burnout by my two Eagles.  If our Cubs get to do the Boy Scout stuff too soon they very may get burned out.  I would like to see something like the old rules reinstated so our Scouts can grow, carry on and experience the real adventure of Scouting.  By the way, girls weren't allowed to be Boy Scouts but both daughters joined an Explorer Post and both became Post Presidents and worked many seasons at summer camp. One is even a Woodbadger.   My whole point is that the little guyes should do little guy stuff and when they to become a Boy Scout they get to do Boy Scout stuff.  This is wholly based on my personal experience and not on some good ideas or unproven theories. 

If the program isn't any fun, then nobody wants to participate.  Nobody wants to do something that is a drag, tedious, unpleasant or nasty. In other words, it isn't any fun.  The best way to keep something from being too much fun is to stop the activity before it comes to a natural end. Again this requires active and engaged adults.

It look like Eagledad, MattR and I share a grand philosophy as far as Scouting goes.

25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but, ignorance isn't always bliss. Most of the time continued failures are the result of not getting enough information to succeed. Eating cereal out of the box can be fun, but learning how to prepare nutritious meals on a budget is a skill is not typical of teenagers outside of troops. My 64 year old sister confessed not to long ago that she always enjoyed me fixing breakfast when we were in high school because they were delicious. Then she asked me how I learned to cook such good meals. Well, it wasn't mom.

There is always the struggle for us experienced scouters to teach "scout run" without crossing the line to paint a picture of a program that is "scout run into the ground." All I can say is that the troop is an adult program for developing young people into moral and ethical decision makers. Adults are simply part of the equation. That being said, outside of the troop assembly, scouts will rarely see the adults in a mature scout run program because the scouts grow and mature into adult decision makers.

One last thing. In the last couple months, 3 young men who were scouts when I was a scouts approached me to say hello. Each are close to 40 years old with three kids the same age as my grand kids, and I didn't recognize a single one of them. Thank God that I haven't change so much yet that they didn't recognize me because my wife and I enjoyed talking to them so much. They were part of a troop that grew from 15 scouts to 100 scouts in six years. I had the reputation of the most boy run scoutmaster in the district, and that wasn't considered a complement by most scouters at the time. But, a lot of scoutmasters reached out to us for help because our troop also had more scouts over the age of 14 than in other unit (troop, Venturing, or whatever) in Oklahoma. Our program looked radical to most other leaders, but those 3 scouts that approached me the last couple of months couldn't express enough of how much fun they had in our troop.  

So, there is a balance between letting scouts do want to do for fun, and providing enough structure and resources so the fun also develops life long skills for the next generation they raise.  

Barry

I agree that ignorance is not bliss and the role of the adult in Scouting is to reach the goals and aims of Scouting (wich the kids just don't care about) and do it in a way that's fun.  It's just that simple.  Although the concept is simple, the methods of doing this is not and requires thought followed by action on the part of the adults.  I tell folks all of the time that I didn't learn very much from the Marines concerning living in the field.  The Marines give you your stuff, say pack it up and let's go.  Everyone is able to survive, but us old Boy Scouts knew how to be comfortable and thrive.

First of all, I never suggested that Scouting should be "Just Fun".  Also, adults who want to feel good about themselves should reevaluate their role in Scouting.  Adults and youth alike participate because Scouting is fun.  If the adults aren't having fun then the aren't either.  If the kids aren't having fun then they simply quit and then the adults are  no longer needed.   It's not that hard to make planning a good menu and then shopping for food a fun activity.  It's not that hard to make cooking a great meal fun.  It's not that hard to learning about good citizenship fun.  It's not that hard to make the whole Scouting experience fun but it does take effort on the part of the adults.  If you have had the privilege of guiding a young person through their journey to Eagle, then onto adulthood and success, take a minute and ask that person what is their best memory in Scouting.  I have NEVER been told that it was the visit to City Court or learning how to create a personal budget.  Rather, they'll say something about a disastrous camping trip where everything went wrong but they had fun.  Relatively speaking, most kids have a very limited exposure to Scouting so when we have that limited time we must endeavor to provide them a fun experience that they enjoy and leave them wanting more. 

This is what I mean by adults overthinking, over evaluating, over supervising and overregulating a whole great big organization.  Much of what is stated as fact are nothing more then someone's good idea that is not based on research.  Rather, it's based on emotion and theory.  The age old question of what forms a person; environment, social standing, education, early childhood development, nuclear family, diet, etc.  By the time a child reaches Scout age much of their persona has been formed.  With everything that they are exposed to and the pressure they feel as they try to establish their own identity, what's wrong with Scouting being a positive outlet that focuses on just having fun?  

I've been around troops who had their meetings by playing basketball and it was fun.  Before they played ball they had an opening ceremony and patrol meetings where they planned their own meals without adult influence.  If they wanted bologna and Captain Crunch every meal, then that's what they had.  Has anyone ever taken kids to the grocery store and helped them shop for their food?  If not, why not?  They are expected to do things that they don't know how to do and once they know how to do it they enjoy doing it which spells FUN. 

I've been around troops who had their meetings by playing basketball and it was fun.  Before they played ball they had an opening ceremony and patrol meetings where they planned their own meals without adult influence.  If they wanted bologna and Captain Crunch every meal, then that's what they had.  Has anyone ever taken kids to the grocery store and helped them shop for their food?  If not, why not?  They are expected to do things that they don't know how to do and once they know how to do it they enjoy doing it which spells FUN. 

9 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

BE PREPARED

I liked @mrjohns2"Good Citizen" response. As a parent, that's really my number one goal - to raise a decent person who provides a net benefit to society (as opposed to being a drag on others). Everything else is a stretch goal.

However, I think the Scout motto answers the OP's question pretty well. Scouting will eventually nudge my son out of his comfort zone when he's old enough to join Scouts BSA. Spending a weekend away from his parents and relying solely on supplies he and his troopmates packed will teach him independence and self-reliance. If he chooses to work on camp staff, he'll spend 6 weeks away from my wife and I every summer. Most successful adults have to occasionally operate outside of their comfort zones and Scouting provides a controlled environment for youth to be independent and make mistakes without serious repercussions.

I love that, too.  And I concur with everything you say!

I disagree and I don't believe that the emphasis should be on anything but fun.  Rather then make everything a lesson the adults need to focus on the fun and guide that in the direction that let's the other stuff happen.  And just exactly what's wrong with an outside play group with uniforms?

Well, there have been a few replies that are closer to some of the outcome of Scouting.  Build character, good citizen, horrible paperwork are all great examples of the results of being in Scouts but I have never heard a kid use those to say why they want to be a Scout.  Wicked adventures, get outside, have a knife, build fires, camp out or go hiking are closer to the mark.  Those other things are interjected by adults to help form the positive results of being a Scout.  Sadly, its the result of well meaning adults that we been required to wash much of the fun out of Scouting.  For example, build a tower.  Ropes, logs, blisters, knots and lashings, sweat ond hard work and now we have a tower!  But don't climb on because a lashing may not hold and you may fall.  What great fun that could have been.  Or perhaps, let's cook potatoes in the fire by building a fire,  feeding the fire with the right kind of wood, throw the potatoes in the fire, wait a while and eat the potatoes, what a great meal that was!  But, let's not let the kids play with fire because they might get burned or we may scorch a spot on the ground, and heaven forbid that someone burnes their fingers on a hot potato because that could spell law suite for the adult overseeing  this dangerous event. Now even dodge ball is against the rules,, boy oh boy oh boy😞😞

You win that one🤣🤣🤣

Can anyone provide a TWO WORD statement answering the question why have Scouts?  Not one word, not three words, TWO WORDS as to why have Scouts.  As I have said in the past I have never heard a youngster say that they wanted to be a Scout to learn lessons, gain maturity or become a leader.  I did hear one say that he wanted to go to the US Air Force Academy and needed to put that he was an Eagle Scout on his application.  Scouts is there to let kids have fun, period.  It's so good to stand in the background and watch kids have fun.  Watch them play, ride bikes, try new things and see new places, or just hang out and talk with friends.  That's why we have Scouts and unfortunately there isn't much of that left.  Adults have litigated, interfered and regulated a whole bunch of fun right out of the BSA.  Rather then standing on a river bank watching kids climb a tree and jump into the water, the adult has to consider the outcome of the lawsuit if someone gets hurt.  Let the kids ride their bikes?  Only if they wear a helmet,  gloves, hard soled shoe's, knee pads and elbow pads.  It's not the kids fault, all of this is brought about by the actions of self serving adults. We rode bikes in swim trunks, period.  No shirt, shoe's or gloves and we all made it.  Sure there were a lot of cuts, bruises, shinned knees and bloody noses on the boys and the girls and we made it. With all of the money spent by BSA figuring out what can't be done, perhaps some money and thought should go into the what can we do to let the kids just have fu n😞

Ouch, that is indeed a problem.  I can think of countless and legitimate situations where an adult Scouter could inadvertently find themselves in this predicament. I have seen adults pull the "YPT COMPLAINT "like a loaded pistol.  I would hope that any investigation into this was complete and thorough and done by someone without a vested interest.  Best wishes in the future.

I couldn't agree more! But the more people just through up their hands and point out all of the negatives, the worse things get.  To fix these problems, a [...] lodge advisor who has a good relationship with the CE, and who gives support to the real LEC is a must.  That Advisor along with the CE need to stand fast when good intentioned adults want to interfere with the business of the LEC.  National Committee?  Who are they and what do they do other then to stir [...] people off.  Try talking to one of them and see how far it gets you.  The leadership within the lodge should focus on all of these negative issues in their own lodge and not even worry about everyone else, even the national committee.  I would encourage every experienced and registered adult to grab one of these problems within their lodge and help fix the problem.  Those mystical and powerful members of the national committee have no idea what the local lodges struggle with and have a hard time realizing that what works in Main may not Work in Texas and what works in California may not work in Tennessee.  Those guys around focus on making things easier for local lodges and plan the next NOAC, and leave the local lodges to THE LEC!

It seems that a lot of folks put the cart before the horse.  I think the real issue is why someone who has completed the Ordeal not want to be in good standing.  The OA has a lot to offer a young person especially when they get  a little older and would like to be involved in Scouting leadership that really does let the kids run the show.  It also keeps them involved in Scouting after earning Eagle.  This is only possible if the unit supports the lodge by encouraging active participation.   If a policeman does not get his required annual training no one is going to say "that's OK, well take care of it."  Instead that officer looses their power to arrest and can't participate actively in his job.  They don't stop being a cop, they just aren't allowed to play in the game.  It's not a good idea for that officer to grab his badge and gun and go on patrol until the issue is corrected.  At that time they become a full fledged officer again and can get back to work.  Maybe that will help clarify this, a bit.

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Although I would withdraw my parent example based on this...

Any registered member of BSA who is an Arrowman may wear his insignia.  He is a member of the Order, regardless of lodge affiliation.

Thats incorrect but do as you please.  Everything in scouting nowadays is only a suggestion and it really doesn't matter what suggestions are followed or interpreted.   As long as noone gets a bad feeling and gets an award for showing up everything is fine.  I would encourage you to research the origins of the customs and traditions of the OA and that organization has the same rules concerning membership status and dues.

53 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

So disturbed as to why the election team had asked me about strikes after the vote, I asked about this, and after a delay brought on by Klondike, I have an answer. It turns out this is NOT how our Chapter conducts elections, and this was an error on the part of the newly-pressed-into-service election team, that will now  be corrected. I thought it might be one more new thing.

So my apologies for confusion g the discussion with my incorrect information, and thanks to all who helped me fix it.

Its not my place, but I apologize for the confusion created by the election team.   Unfortunately its common for new members to take on tasks that they aren't really prepared for and can only duplicate their own experience,  weather right or wrong..

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No one said otherwise.  Read the post... 

 

That means events and business...

What other points are incorrect??

Ok, its a pretty simple train to follow:  attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, remain active by paying dues, attend events, wear Sash.  Or attend the ordeal, complete the ordeal, don't remain active by not paying dues, don't attend lodge events, no Sash. Obviously I did read the post and perhaps you should read the mountains of literature available explaining the purpose and mission of the OA.   In fact it's now impossible to register for an event like NOAC unless you are an active member of your lodge.  Should I continue?

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Since it is not really an election, but rather a selection, now, I do not ask.

What I do tell them is that Order of the Arrow is part of our UNIT program, not the Lodge program!

WE use it as selection for an honor within OUR Troop.

I have talked with many Scouts who fear one of three things:

1.  I'm rejected.  OK, so what? So now you KNOW, rather than walking around guessing.  And that is an indication to you that there MAY be some area for improvement... if you should decide to improve.  Would you rather know, or would you rather guess?

2.  I do not want to be in the OA.  Fine, no one says you have to go through an Ordeal.  But, if you are selected by your fellow Scouts, you now have OPTIONS.

3.  I'll deny someone else the chance (rare). NO!  Because it is not an ELECTION.  It is a SELECTION.  No one else loses a slot because of your being on the Selection Menu (versus ballot).

By the way... and I have said this around here until I am BLUE in the face.  An Arrowman's FIRST duty is to his UNIT!  Not to the lodge!  Nothing obligates you to service to the Lodge.  If you choose to go through the Ordeal induction Ceremony, you are ALWAYS a member of the Order of the Arrow. 

Should you not wish to pay the dues next year, you will not be a member of the Lodge.  So what?  You still may wear your sash at any and all OA observances.  Just take off the flap...

I'm not sure where some of these points come from, but several are incorrect on so many levels.  For example the OA Sash is only worrn at OA events or while conducting OA business.  You can breathe because your correct that ones first responsible to their unit and just like most things in life a person gets out of the OA to the level they contribute.  The OA should work in conjunction with the units to enhance the Scouting experience and not compete with each other.  Oh well, that's enough for now.

Thank you so much for that reply!

AMEN!!!!

56 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Agreed.

If a SM feels that a youth is not necessarily living up to the Scout Oath or Scout Law demonstrably, it's a good time to have a SMC with that youth and explain why they aren't going to get on the ballot. The very idea of trying to deny a youth AFTER they have been elected by their troop pretty much is public shaming. Having that conference with the youth, maybe you'd learn some things that are going on in that kids life, and it may just sway your opinion of them that being in the OA just might be an additional outlet for the kid to right themselves. I've seen enough Scouts flourish in leadership positions in OA that just didn't jive well with the youth in their troops (and, after seeing some of the members of their troop within the OA, I get why).