Mrjeff

Its analogy and the point is that if someone doesn't want to follow the rules they won't be able to participate.   The rules don't change to fit the person.

I agree with you guys.  It's sad that some guy just does this without consideration for what the members want to do.

I go back to my analogy of a sports team.   If someone wants to play ice hockey then they get skates, pads and a hockey stick.  They learn the rules, agree with the rules and play hockey.  If someone wants to be a Scout they get a uniform and some camping gear and a good pair of shoes.  They learn the rules and agree to follow the rules and then go and Scout.  Hockey doesn't change the rules to expand membership and try to make it where everybody plays hockey.   The worst mistake that Scouting has ever made is changing the rules to satisfy a minority who didn't like the old rules.  If Scouting wasn't for you, go someplace else, apply and pay your fees and follow the set of rules that you like.  Show up at a hockey game with a golf club and guess what, you can't play.

Wow, another fatal wound to the Order of the Arrow.  It looks like the National whoever realized that no matter how they propogandized, pushed and bullied the OA, they just couldn't handle the blowback from most of the local lodges concerning removing Native american regalia, clothing or dress (whatever is politically correct) during ceremonies.  So, in their wisdom and treachery,  banned all AIA activities at NOAC.  I guess whoever fails to realise that many or even most lodges really enjoy AIA activities and are dedicated to the dance, dress, music and ceremonies of the AIA.  It will be interesting to learn how this decision effects the number of NOAC participants and therefore the money.  It will be interesting to see just how many lodges that have been preparing for AIA events for years just don't bother attending. Just food for thought.  I would suggest that every Lodge Advisor call the national office and voice their opinions.   Oh, never mind,  they don't answer the phone😑

Thanks, that's my understanding,  too.

I know that everybody has been busy with the Jamboree but NOAC is fast approaching.  I havnt seen much info yet, have I missed something?  If so, where do I find the latest news about NOAC 2024?

"Tos" and "want" and grammatical accuracy,  hmmmmm.............chritising spelling?  Is that really important and necessary? 

Wow, this has gotten way of track...my initial post is simple, its a shame that a young man was forced to make a decision wherein he felt as though he could no longer be a part of an organization that goes against his morals, values and beliefes, an this is a common reaction to the current state of the BSA.  Agree or disagree, interpreting this how ever you like, it's a sad state of affairs.

Oh by the way, because I think that something is offensive, then I'm offended, and if I  am stating something that someone else finds offensive then they just have to be offended.

6 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I agree that YPT policies can be a little absurd, but the OP wasn't on that. Check back - it was Eagle94-A1 who brought YPT into it two comments down.

Certainly, the difficulty in formulating a policy to protect youth from sexual abusers that they met through scouting but that doesn't lead to absurd situations where youth have to choose between being scouts and seeing their friends is well worth discussing. But the OP seems to be about how BSA has been destroyed by letting people who aren't white cishet males join the organization and the importance of standing by that opinion because it's a morally correct stand.

Again, incorrect.   I take offense to the idea of yelling INCLUSION, INCLUSION, INCLUSION from the mountain top but encouraging certain segments of a group to have segregated and separate events and recognition for those groups.  If ANYONE EVEN SUGGESTED that there should be a separate gathering for straight white males the charges of racism and segregation would be shouted by the masses.   But it's just fine and acceptable to have separate events for gay, black, and female members.  This is so blatenly hypothetical that if its not obvious to those who condone this then there is no reason to discuss this any further.

Actually I said what I  said so I am willing to say it.  Making assumptions about another person's opinions, state of mind or thought processes is very presumptive and often incorrect.  To, me you have completly missed the point but appreciate the effort that you took to evaluate and interpret my initial post, even though you are incorrect.  If you have ever red any of my earlier contributions you would see that I often say what I say and standat attention right next to and along side of what I say.  The funny thing is, this post is about what someone else said.  Hmmmmmm?

8 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

But you're not actually willing to say it, apparently. You rely on people inferring what you're talking about. 

And because you're not willing to spell out what you mean and stand by it, the interpretation I land on is that what's ailing BSA is letting all the "riffraff" in. It used to be only the "right" people, and now all the "wrong" people are allowed to join. You think it's wrong, and you're very mad about it, but somehow this has nothing to with DEI. I don't think further comment is needed here. This whole thing falls apart immediately all on its own.

I will simple reiterate that your "right" and "wrong" people approach isn't that of either WOSM or WAGGS, and the scouting movement as a whole has long, long since left this right/wrong people thing behind, if it was ever generally a thing. It was never part of my scouting experience, and those pictures by the German photographer were described to have the theme of freedom to be who you are. Bingo, I recognize that completely. That's what scouts were for me socially. It was a place where I belonged. You seem to want the opposite. You want something that's not scouting, best I can tell. Something that's unkind on purpose.

You can buy versions of the Swedish scout t-shirt with the logo in rainbow and other pride scout items, and that's because everyone is welcome and part of being kind, friendly, helpful, and a good friend is making sure everyone feels it, too. I don't feel excluded as straight, I've never in my whole life felt like someone or something is holding me being straight against me. Similarly, I have never had the color of my skin held against me, so I am completely unbothered by the existence of affinity groups for POC. That it bothers you so much further reinforces my impression that to you, exclusion is core.

As a graduate student in engineering, I loved going to the Society of Women Engineers' national meetings, because for once every single person in this giant crowd is also an engineer. I found mentors and it, for a week, took away the uneasy feeling (based on unfortunate experience) of that some people want you to fail because they don't think you should be there. I encountered them as an adult, and so it was pretty easy to not take the idea that I shouldn't be there seriously, but children absolutely will enter a spiral of self-doubt over those kinds of things. Children need explicit encouragement if anybody ever does!

Anger clouds one's judgement.

What was the purpose of posting this, since you know it's offensive and exclusionary? I presume you will decline an invitation to clarify once again, and so it is left to look like your mind is heavily obscured by reactive emotion. Hurt people hurt people, I suppose. I hope you can heal your hurt and see clearer in the future, even to the point of attaining profound, brilliant glory. May you recognize your true nature and rapidly attain complete, perfect enlightenment.

I said what I said and it is what it is.  Regardless of my interpretation many will feel differently and will disagree with his position as well as my interpretation. The Boy Scouts ain't what it used to be and will never be what it was. Like it or not, that's how it is and the results are obvious..  Compair public opinion, membership numbers, public support, religious support, community support and the overall general consensus of people in and outside of Scouting.  It is what it is.

If it didn't take place at a Scouting event it isn't a Scouting issue.  Trying to dictate what a young person does on /heir own time with their friends and associates is no concern of Scouting.  This may appear as unsympathetic but Scouting is not  responsible for every member at all times.  These rules appear to be another attempt to insulate the BSA from future problems.  The idea of fals inclusion is demonstrated by the BSA when they have special recognition for groups that are singular in nature.  Patches and gatherings for black Scouts, LGBTQ Scouts and female Scouts recognizes individual groups and incourages divisiveness not inclusion.   If there is not a gathering for straight white males, that group is being segregated and discriminated against.  Inclusiviness involves everyone, not specific groups inside of a larger group.  All of this malarkey is being propagated ti keep the business of the Boy Scouts alive, when in reality the Boy Scouts is following the path of the Hudson. 

Sure, some great BSA important person thinks that the YPT rules apply to everyone in Scouting wherever they are, at all times, nregardless if it pertains to Scouting events or not.  The BSA thinks that they have the authority to dictate the everyday relationships especially involving 18-20 year old kids including their friends at school.  This is way far overreach.

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Extremely heartbreaking. And I am glad he is Brave enough to answer truthfully.

The answer we usually get to that question is that current YP policies not only treat 18-20 year olds as essentially useless, but also requires them to give up their friends outside of Scouting. They feel National has no respect for their abilities (I'd rather a bunch of 18-20 year olds ASMs to brand new, just crossed over former Cub Scout leaders), and to ask them to give the friends they have made in school, Scouts, church, etc is ridiculous.

Yes indeed, I have no idea where the BSA got the idea that they have any authority to direct the activities of anyone outside of a Scouting event.  Is the BSA going to establish a group of investigators to watch what every member is doing at all times?  How far do they think they can go before the whole thing implodes?

I disagree that he in any way compromised his values.  When this young man entered Scouting he had no idea about the direction that the Scouting organization would take, and at that young age, really didn't care.  As he grew and matured and made a personal choice to become an Eagle Scout, his knowledge, understanding and awareness increased.  He felt compelled to reach his goal of becoming an Eagle Scout even though his view of the BSA became very negative.  This alone strengthens the idea that sexual preference, gender identification, or this false concept of inclusion has no place in the Boy Scouts of America.  I recently saw an ad for patches that celebrate the LGBTQ community, " people of color "  and women in Scouting.  Aren't the straight white male members being excluded or are the powers that be too week to make that available, or would that be racist or homofobic.  Inclusion means inclusion and as far as the fees go, I would like to know just how many young people are EXcluded because they just can't afford the cost.

I'm not going to talk about experience or credentials because that's not what this is all about so please leave those comments out of this.  For the first time at an Eagle Scout Board of Review I received an answer to a commonly asked question.   The question was, "do you plan to continue your Scouting career once you complete the Eagle Scout requirements?" The answer was very disheartening, "Sir, although Scouting has been a great experience, I can't continue participating in an organization that is in conflict with my morals and beliefs."  That is a fine example of a young man who refuses to compromise.  He also has a younger brother who has nearly completed his Eagle Scout requirements, but is doing so as a Lone Scout program rather than be part of a group that has compromised its values. This has nothing to do with inclusion, acceptance or tolerance,  its just an example of a young man willing to stand by his beliefs, morals and home training.  This isn't a teaching oppertunity  or an opportunity for discussion, that is not the purpose of an Eagle Scout Board of Review.  This is an axample of a young man who stands firm on his beliefs no matter how hard others try to change his mind.

I may get another naughty notice but......this is just another example of how the Boy Scouts of America is a rusty machine that is grinding itself to pieces.  This whole BSA thing is being administered by a bunch of colleged indoctrinated people who can't see the big picture of how they are destroying a once great and respected organization.   A lot of people like to quote Baden-Powell but don't like to mention his comments on turning the Scouts into a corps of professionals or letting the "yanks" getting their hands on Woodbadge because "they'll only muck it up".  Unfortunately many of the new BSA indoctrinated leaders won't really know about scouting because they have never experienced it.  Folks don't know how jacked up and sideways things have gotten because they don't know the difference.

What another pile of boulderdash that some employee/ bean counter of BSA has developed to justify their own job.  It wasn't that long ago that every unit in a council was required to re charger on the same date.  Along with the re charter came re registration and everything that goes along with that.  I can just hear it now, " we can't go because Mr. X, Mr. Y, and Mr. Z have expired registrations!"  Increasing fees for volunteers and kids is a GRAND way to boost membership since opening the door to girls and the LGBTQ community didn't work.  In a few years the organization known as the Boy Scouts of America will be unrecognizable. 

I love to discuss things with the likes of backpacker, I always gain wisdom and insight to so many things.  Y'all can argue and say " you are wrong" but here's a little tidbit that may shed some light on this.  Law Enforcement Explorer's, and there is such a thing even if they're they are in Exploring,  have a recognition device for Eagle Scouts and several years ago Exploring authorized that same device for the Girl Scout Gold Award. As far as BSA goes it really doesn't matter because uniforms are only optional and suggested so I guess the patches that one puts on their shirt doesn't really matter either.

I agree with everything you say.  But, Scouting is not a universal platform for teaching the lessons of life.  There are many fine organizations that do the same things without Scoutings specific guidelines.  If anyone feels uncomfortable following these guidelines they are free to go elsewhere.   Its foolish to change the rules to meet the needs of the individual;  it's up to the participant to follow the rules.

Hard line opinion:  if someone wants to join a baseball team,  they agree to play by the rules, period.  If someone wants to join Scouting then play by the rules.  The BSA is a private organization that requires an application and a membership fee.  Its not something that everyone has a right to join so follow the rules or go find something else to do.  To allow everybody to be a member infringes on the rights of those who become members BECAUSE OF THE RULES.  I have never seen a club that changes the rules to please everybody and make everybody happy without regards to the desires of the members.  The more that things like the Scout Oath and Law are interpreted to fit individual needs, the less value they have.  This in turn devalues everything else, not only for the participants, but also for their predesors. 

I haven't criticized,  berated,  talked down or otherwise berated you.  I have provided you with suggestions that clearly outline methods to integrate patrol yells, cheers or calls.  I have answered your question but you choose to overlook the suggestions and repeat the question over and over.  If you need any clarification feel free to ask, otherwise my only other suggestion would be to just figure it out.  I won't continue to participate in or fo)low this circular conversation any longer.  Best wishes and good luck in your scouting endeavors. 

Well said!  For many many many years the BSA followed a straight and narrow path and now the path is crooked and wide with far less travelers.  Members knew the rules and followed them and great rewards were achieved.  Now the road is wide and the rules were changed to please the masses and many who followed the old path picked a different rout and there are not enough new travelers to replace the old.  Great and meaningful rewards are fewer and many are no longer available. Feel free to interpret this story as you like, but the ending shall remain the same.