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Posts posted by Mrjeff

  1. I agree with everything you say.  But, Scouting is not a universal platform for teaching the lessons of life.  There are many fine organizations that do the same things without Scoutings specific guidelines.  If anyone feels uncomfortable following these guidelines they are free to go elsewhere.   Its foolish to change the rules to meet the needs of the individual;  it's up to the participant to follow the rules.

  2. Hard line opinion:  if someone wants to join a baseball team,  they agree to play by the rules, period.  If someone wants to join Scouting then play by the rules.  The BSA is a private organization that requires an application and a membership fee.  Its not something that everyone has a right to join so follow the rules or go find something else to do.  To allow everybody to be a member infringes on the rights of those who become members BECAUSE OF THE RULES.  I have never seen a club that changes the rules to please everybody and make everybody happy without regards to the desires of the members.  The more that things like the Scout Oath and Law are interpreted to fit individual needs, the less value they have.  This in turn devalues everything else, not only for the participants, but also for their predesors. 

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  3. I haven't criticized,  berated,  talked down or otherwise berated you.  I have provided you with suggestions that clearly outline methods to integrate patrol yells, cheers or calls.  I have answered your question but you choose to overlook the suggestions and repeat the question over and over.  If you need any clarification feel free to ask, otherwise my only other suggestion would be to just figure it out.  I won't continue to participate in or fo)low this circular conversation any longer.  Best wishes and good luck in your scouting endeavors. 

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  4. Well said!  For many many many years the BSA followed a straight and narrow path and now the path is crooked and wide with far less travelers.  Members knew the rules and followed them and great rewards were achieved.  Now the road is wide and the rules were changed to please the masses and many who followed the old path picked a different rout and there are not enough new travelers to replace the old.  Great and meaningful rewards are fewer and many are no longer available. Feel free to interpret this story as you like, but the ending shall remain the same.

  5. 13 hours ago, Scouterlockport said:

    Thanks for adding a lot to the discussion a month or so after everyone else. My reason for the down voice is that this wonderful organization is not going to survive if we keep requiring people to have a religous creed to join in a growing non religious nation. Just like modernizing by adding female scouts, we need to look at requiring a relationship to god. Less and less people are openly religious and the advantage of those charter organizations is going away forever.

    You're welcome for my input.  In reality the BSA does require an acknowledgement that there is a higher being and that the individual has a relationship.  Therefore if someone disagrees and refuses this concept then they need to go play in another sandbox.  The BSA is a private club that requires an application and a fee.  Just like every other club, if you don't like the rules, go someplace else or start your own club with your own rules.  The BSA is so far removed from what it once was its hardly recognizable.  Look at the broad picture and its easy to see that the BSA wants to be accessible to everyone and this accessibility it eating the BSA alive.

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  6. Oh my heavens,  sometimes its necessary to look into your own imagination and turn to your own ideas and close the books.  This yelling and cheering and patrol flags and names and ribbons are all simple tools to have fun.  Its just that simple, introduce the concept and stand back and watch.  If you really need a book, I would look back, way back, at some vintage scouting literature.  

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  7. Since someone mentioned Woodbadge, think about how it was done there. First, provide material for each patrol to create their own patrol flag. Then encourage them to come up with a patrol yell to signal its time to gather up at that flag. Then encourage them to come up with a patrol cheer.  Make this a fun activity that everyone wants to participate in and reward them with a Baden Powell ribbon to hang on their flag pole.  That's one way to do it but the encouraging needs to come from the SPL and other troop officers.  Adults can still encourage and provide the necessary materials.  Then the adults could present the patrol with a spirit "spirit stick" as a patrol reward.  Thats one method and like everything, it takes some extra effort along with some practice from the adults so it doesn't look like they are interfering or taking over.  The grown folks can do the same thing to act the example.  Most importantly, MAKE THIS A FUN  AND STRESS FREE ACTIVITY!!!  If you don't, it ain't going to work 😃😃😃

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  8. Hmmmmmmm........the answer to your question is yes.  You do allow them to figure out the knots themselves.  Older kids who have know how to tie knots should be instructing younger or less experienced kids how to do things.  

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  9. I just wish that the BSA would just leave the administration of the local councils alone.  They make up policies and rules that they really can't enforce, they have lost the trust and confidence of the members, they have over priced everything, and made it very hard to enjoy.  Get a grip people, if the BSA keeps heading in that direction a lot more people will just figure that the aggravation is not equal to the value and will just go support something else😞


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  10. 4 hours ago, qwazse said:

    With all do respect, this is an over generalization. More importantly, it reverses the causality. With few exceptions, everyone wants to have fun, but — even with the offering of an insanely fun troop — not everyone wants to be a scout.

    With all due respect back atcha, this "causality" is what adults expect from Scouting, not the kids.  Not  everyone should be a Scout and its a huge mistake to turn Scouting into an everything for everybody  program.  Obviously the Scouting program has gotten so watered down so everyone feels comfortable and is never disappointed it is scarcely recognized as the Boy Scouts of America of just 10 years ago.  And that is not a positive thing.  This so called "causality " should be the result of enjoyable and FUN activities that will develop the "causality ".  I have made this point from the beginning and now it would appear that we are word jousting over verbage and semiotics .




  11. I agree, the decision has already been made. It was made by a committee of self serving adults without regard to what the youth members want.  Nobody at any level has ever answered any direct questions about anything.  Even face to face those people answer with nonsense and vague information.  Exactly who are the native Americans who object?  What particular tribe do they represent?  What standing do they have within their tribe?  Are they acting with authority of tribal leaders?  If these questions could be addressed there could be validity in these concerns.  Or maybe the BSA  is worried that native Americans have claims to the Summit property or Philmont and they're afraid if they do something the BSA  will loose those assets.   

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  12. When I first asked " Why have Scouts" I said that I have never heard a kid say that they wanted to be a Scout because they wanted to be a good citizen, learn leadership, or become a good money manager.  Every kid says that they wanted to be a Scout in order to "HAVE FUN" and its just that simple. Everything else is just a byproduct of having fun thats supervised and directed by adults.  Unfortunately horrible people took advantage of their trusted position and bad things happened.   Now Scouting is overregulated and common sense has been removed from the equation.   Throw in some egocentric  and controlling adults and the fun is often times watered down and replaced by misery.   I challenge myself to at least try to make every event as fun and enjoyable as possible.  That takes work and preparation but at the same time I enjoy what I'm doing and want to do it.  When I no longer enjoy what I'm doing and no longer want to do it I will put my Scout handbook on the shelf, put away my Woodbadge beads and Seabadge trident, lovingly fold up my uniforms and neckerchiefs and move onto something else.

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  13. Unfortunately, another major issue is how people have embraced theidea of suing one another.  If I went on a Scout trip and fell down and broke my arm I went home, explained what happened, got fussed at for doing something stupid and went back with a cast on my arm.  Unfortunatly today the supervising adults could face a law suit, not just to pay the repair bills, but to make the unfortunate youth who was subjected to needless danger and negligent supervision in an environment that should have been known was dangerous and was devoid of any warning labels or cautions that should have been clearly visible in order to protect the poor, uneducated, inexperienced and innocent victim of each and every hazard that could be found and without signing the proper hold harmless and release of liability form, and should therefore be made whole..  For Christmas sake, the kid ran through the woods and fell, breaking his arm, but a lot of people don't think like that and everything is someone's fault, other then their own.   ☹☹☹☹

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  14. I was traveling on I-75 and my mind drifted back to the days when I was a Boy Scout.  We climbed, went swimming, chopped down trees, built campsite gateways and lashed together camp gadgets.  We built fires, carved things including our fingers, slept in old canvas rents, played in the rain and snow and even went swimming in our skivies. If we got hurt someone fixed us up and we went back to what we were doing.  We stayed up all night and chased each other through the woods, and most of the time the only adult there was the ole Scoutmaster.  I also remember that our adult leaders were all part of "The Greatest Generation", sure there were a few very young baby boomers around who were JASMs but thats it.  Well, most of the greatest generation have moved on to their final reward and the boomers are all getting long in the teeth and after a while we'll all be gone to.  This leaves the job to X,Y, and Melinianials.   As such Scouting will reflect the values, ideas, social norms and opinions of those who are left to carry on and there's nothing that anyone can do about it.

  15. 14 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    You nailed it. 

    I don't know if the problem is burned out adults, or if they just don't know how. I've said here many times that I find difference between flourishing troops and troops that struggle is the flourishing troops have adults who were scouts as a youth. Those adults remember what made their scouting experience fun, and insure it is part of their program with a purpose. And as you said the adults need to have fun too, they find the Joy is having fun program.

    I think the problem is adults often fixate on the outcome and not enough on the fun components that give joy  the experience  to get mix up what the purpose of the program. 

    I saw this kind of thing at Wood Badge. Many of the staff and the participants were so focused on outcome that they couldn't enjoy the activities that gave them experiences to feed the outcomes. My nature is bit of being a class clown and I worked very hard to dilute the serious outcome perspective. But, it was concerning to me. No wonder so many folks complain they didn't get anything out of WB. They didn't look for joy in the camping and comradery.

    Great perspective, thanks.


    Amen, amen, and AMEN!!!  You hit the nail on the head.  Thank you for sharing your insite!

  16. 14 hours ago, qwazse said:

    Regarding fun ... scouting should be fun. But, that doesn't address "why scouting?" That's because lots of things are fun. But many things that are fun are either extremely hazardous or utterly trivial.

    Fun is a by-product of skill mastery. Skill mastery in an ethical framework is fun with a purpose. Thus fun is not an end in itself, but a means of reaching those ends.

    I think that you have this absolutly and completly backwards and the proof is displayed in the decline of the whole Scouting world.  The focus must be on the fun and the byproducts are all the things that adults think are important.  I would hate to be involved in a unit that has this backwards.  What a terrible and distasteful this would be.  

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