Mrjeff

Wow, there seems to be a lot of premature judging going on.  Again, I am not arguing my credentials or experience but I have spent some time on the ole shooten range.  It doesn't matter if it's a Marine Corps range, a law enforcement range, a private range or a Scout Camp range, eventually there will be an accidental discharge,  plain and simple.  Most aren't as serious as this, but they do happen.  I will reserve judgment and blame until I get to hear the rest of the story.

I once went to summer camp where one of our guys finished his 500 word Environmental Science essay.  He was given a partial because his essay wasn't "good enough", so I stepped up to bat.  When the Ecology Director told me that the paper met the requirement but wasn't good enough for the camp I became more determined to assist this Scout.  I spoke to the Camp Director who agreed that if the paper met the requirement the requirement was met.  The Ecology Director was not pleased, but he was told to sign the card because I was correct.  One small victory for that little guy, but I always give the kid the benefit of the doubt😉

I think the whole idea of using grades to determine eligibility is overreach and should never be considered.  You may have an academically underachieving young person and the best thing they have going is Scouting.  As far as a code of conduct, BOLDERDASH,  Scouting has a well established code of conduct, the Scout Law.  Throw in the Scout Oath and the Guide to Safe Scouting and you have all you need. Why reinvent the wheel? Just use what is already in place.

Hey all of you minimalist Scouters out there.  There is one conciliation for you.  After all of us old goats head to the great council fire in the sky, you just won't have to worry about knot wearing too many knots.  A whole pile of the little buggers have been retired so unless you have been around a long time, they just ain't available any more🤫

Jeeeeezzzzzzz....................I am not going to discuss my credentials or Scouting position.  I will say that in our district and Council the BEBEFIT OF THE DOUBT IS ALWAYS IN FAVOR OF THE SCOUT..................................PERIOD....NUFF SAID........END OF CONVERSATIO ...............it's also understood that the Merit Badge Councilor is the subject matter expert and if that expert says its done, it's done.    My two cents🤔

😅🤣😂😆😅🤣😂🤣😅😆😂😂😂Welllllllllllll..........I would never, I say never ever...put stuff on my pants😅🤣😂😅🤣😂😂🤣😅😆🤣😉

Somewhere in my huge pile of Scout stuff I still have my first uniform with red piping around the pockets of the trousers and collar less shirt.  I love those old OD uniforms.  I hated the change and wore one until it didn't fit.  If I could find a xx adult uniform I would still wear one.  I have a bunch of newer uniforms but would go retro in a flash.  Along with a "General Patten" pattern of knots I also pin on two Eagle Scout Dad pins and one Eagle Scout Grandfather pin. I have obtained a RETIRED strip and after I complete my current tour of duty I'm going to put it on right under my TRAINED strip.  Flamboyant yes but I like it.  Believe it or knot the kids like it too.  Over the years I've heard bunches of old folks say that it's all fo the boys, and now the girls; that's hogwash, bolderdash, and rubbish because if the grey beards aren't having a good time doing what they're doing the kids won't enjoy what they're doing.  So I would say thats it's for the young and old alike😉.  Sooooooooo, knots or no knots, pins or no pins, patches or patchless, have a grand time and Scout On!

Yea, yea, yea, if thou wouldst adorn thyself with tutu, heals of spikes, speedo, or string bikini proceed without delay!  Trouble not yourselves with guides, laws, rules, suggestions or anything that imposes on the right to self expression, comfort or other desire that ye may have in the pursuit of happiness!

Welllllll....if you CAREFULLY read the guide you will also see that once official always official and the flamboyant among us need knot remove knots if the number exceeds the 9 knots.  Also the whole guide is n a suggestion and an encouragement without being a thou shall and thou shall knot.  Therefore, yea I declare that the insignia guide is truly a guide and not a law!  So go ye therefore, ye readers and intrepreters of you sacred guide and adorn yourselves to the extent your heart, conscience and treasure trove may allow.  Or, according to the dictates of this sacred parchment, leave them not(s) alone and go naked into our troubled world,  so say I and so say us all !!!

There are lots of opinions concerning uniforms.  At one time the BSA uniform was strictly regulated and required.  Does anyone remember the very old Woodbadge uniform requirements and inspections?  Gradually it evolved into bieng encouraged and suggested.  If one carefully reads the official insignia rules they will find that " once official always official" is the standard.  This is particularly important concerning those controversial little colored scraps of clouth, the square knot.  Not so long ago there was no limit to the number of square knots that are appropriate.  With the latest update and the limit of 9 knots, there is another caviot.  Square knots need knot🤭 be removed to achieve that limit.  I personally wear a few knots on my uniform shirts, of which I have a few.  However; I have one shirt that is my "spiffy" shirt that has every knot that I  have earned, or been presented.   My top three are Eagle Scout, Scoutmaster Award of Merit and the Silver Beaver.  These proudly sit atop an additional 13 square knots.  These are a very real road map of my time in Scouting, much of which was spent with three sons, two daughters, and one grandson.  Consider this a display of my legacy to Scouting and the paths I've traveled in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Exploring and Venturing.  God bless and Scout on!

I started this thread and like I said, if a woman presented herself in a revealing bathing suit people would have been all over it.  If a man showed up in a speedo bathing suit there would have been outcry, if white men showed up wearing white robes someone would have called the police,  how about a t shirt bearing a swastika 50 people would have voiced their disdain.   How about addressing one of these in reference to the ballerina.  There were many who saw this that spoke up about it but most are afraid of being offensive.  Well, people who saw him were offended and I was one of them.  I challenge anyone to justify my example of the swastika in the same way that you are justifying the ballerina. 

You have clearly missed the point. Again, if a female scout or scouter wore a string bikini there would be a public outcry but a kid wearing tights showing off his backside and frontside is just fine?  Ok, if thats the case DROP THE STANDARD  and everyone wears what they want. Let the ladies wear the DasynDukes and halter tops, guys can wear speedo bathing suits, and everything goes.   BSA is trying to gain members and those representing the BSA should present a positive first impression.   I wonder how many managers, supervisors and executives would turn a blind eye to an employee dressing in that style.  I also wonder how many parents who linked that style to the BSA would consider allowing their children to become part of an organization that is so represented.  Again appropriate is appropriate and inappropriate is inappropriate.   No one wants to address the other examples that I mentioned so I guess they would be OK, or would those around would scream like a trash can full of cats.  It is not a jump from uniforms to safety issues.  We shouldn't pick and choose what rules we follow and what rules we don't.   So what if someone steps outside wearing a Scout uniform in full view of the public and fires up a cigar?  What if a young person wears Scout shorts and a t-shirt with a swastika proudly displayed, is that ok as long as they are articulate and intelligent?  If individuals won't follow the rules and there are no consequences then why establish the rule?  To throw a little more gas on the fire, the OA Sash in not SUPPOSED to be worn with a t-shirt but apparently thats another thing that is a rule that doesn't really matter.  Where is the line?  Is there a line? Or do we conduct business based on suggestions.  That is a personal question that everyone must answer for themselves.  If the standard doesn't matter then drop the standard and relax.

This is starting to go sideways.  So, let's be specific,  When I started this discussion I was talking about a national event, that is inherently expensive.  If someone is attending this type of an event, I'm pretty sure they have a uniform.  At this event there was a uniform standard that was established, so, if you are going to pay the fees and attend this event, abide by the standard.   Your other choice is to not attend so you are no longer committed to following the rules. This has nothing to do with individual units, consessions, or those who can't afford to purchase uniforms.  My good wife and I have purchased many uniforms at their exorbitant prices and provided them to the kids who needed them.  Unfortunately, whether we believe it or not, Scouting is in trouble and the big push for membership is obvious.  By allowing members to play dress up and appear in public representing the Scouts is counter productive and embarrassing for other members.  This is no way to grow membership unless you're recruiting for a circus.  If you want to attend, follow the rules or stay home.  If a few attend and don't follow the rules why should anyone else follow the rules?  If the rules aren't followed,  do away with the rules.  What other rules don't need to be followed like YPT, smoking and alcohol use, or horror of all horrors an adult trading patches with a youth? If the suit is the standard then wear the suit.  If not, don't inact the standard 

So what happens if someone shows up at a BOR wearing swim trunks, flowers shirt, and flip Flops?  Do we have the BOR; try to figure out the reason for this attire; send them home to change; or cancel the BOR.  Perhaps we try to find out why;  well, they are on the way to the beach and just stopped off to have their BOR.  We can justify or legitimize anything.  Most people shy away from unpleasantness and take the path of least resistance.   If we just say it's OK and overlook things I won't make waves.  If a standard is established then meet the standard.   If the standard is ignored then don't set the standard.   

Is that the attitude that governs human existence or another way to tolerate non compliance.  What happened that made you feel that you needed to drive 100mph?  What caused you to be so upset that you punched your teacher in the jaw?  I understand that you don't like peas and carrots so its ok that you threw your lunch tray at the cafeteria worker.    I don't understand why its so hard to follow the rules or deal with the consequences.  If the rule is wear the suit then wear the suit otherwise don't make up the rule.  

I had the opportunity to mention this to some of the national widget spinners, bolt holders, idea spinners and didn't get much of a response other than a grin.  On of these guys used to head up an airline and because of that he knew the answers.  Well, as head of an airline I wonder what his reaction would be if one of his pilots walked through the Philadelphia Airport wearing tights and a tutu.  He could control that because he ultimately controlled  that pilots money.  Since Scouting is a volunteer organization he can't control most Scouters money.  Either publish and establish a standard that everyone follows or don't have a standard and don't be surprised by the result.

I would like to cut to the chase.  In my opinion if someone joins Scouting, wear the uniform and follow the rules.  If you don't like the uniform or don't like the rules don't join Scouting.  If a uniform standard is established for an event, follow the standard or don't participate in the event.  Common sense and personal pride should dictate ones appearance when representing the Scouts, especially in public.  If you want to dress up like a princess go to a comicon and wear what you want.  Go to a Scouting event and dress like a Scout.  If someone does not dress in a way that casts a positive light on Scouting they should not be allowed to participate.  Its that simple....it's no different then the proverbial young lady in a string bikini or the young man wearing a swastika on a t-shirt.  

More functional, I'm not exactly sure what that means.  Ever since the old OD green uniforms there has been a bunch of revisions to style, material, pockets, and there are a lot of choices.  The individual was clearly part of the larger group, and the attire received far more then a passing glance.  If someone showed up wearing a speedo and a tank top, or a string bathing suit there would have been an outcry.  Civil disobedience,  what if a member showed up wearing a Hitler Youth uniform, that youth would have been removed.  But, the powers don't seem to be interested in maintaining a positive public image.  Whisper, laugh, ignore, or tolerate,  either way let's just throw the standard away and don't worry about it.   

You can easily find pre owned uniforms that are very inexpensive.  What I'm talking about is a situation  wherein the uniform standard is published and nearly everyone is representing the Scouts following the standard.   But...........when a young man chooses to wear a pair of tights and a ballerina tutu, he becomes an embarrassment for the others within the same organization.   I'm quite sure that if he were to show up at most job sites he would be admonished, sent home, and in some cases fired.  I'm fine with self expression, but there is a correct time and place.  Representing a larger organization that is struggling to survive is not the place as far as I am concerned.

Comfortable?  Taped up, banded up, padded up, then put your jersey and pants on, then grab your helmet, not so comfortable.  I'm not going to say that I know why scout uniforms are not popular and I agree to an extent.  Uniforms and patches are expensive but if someone doesn't present themselves in appropriate dress they shouldn't be permitted to participate.  If a uniform standard is required, then apply the standard and be happy.  Otherwise, cancel the standards,  let everyone "express themselves", and wear what they want.  DO NOT ESTABLISH A STANDARD AND LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHEN SOMEONE DRESSES IN AN OFFENSIVE, EMBARRASSING,  AND INAPPROPRIATE  WAY, and just pretend it's all ok.  

If you show up at a soccer game wearing a football uniform you won't be permitted to play.  If a young lady shows up at a Scouting event wearing a string bathing suit people would scream to high heavens.  If someone shows up in court wearing shorts, flip flops and a tank top they won't be allowed in.  But, as far as being a representative of the BSA, everything goes?  Appropriate is what it is and inappropriate is what it is.  If there is a specified uniform standard then it should be observed by everyone.  If you don't want to follow that standard you shouldn't attend.

But, I  do remember the Philadelphia Mummers Parade, their costumes were spectacular!

It should have been Mardi gras.........thanks spell check😉

Wow, I  remember that if you wanted to purchase a Scout uniform you had to take your BSA ID card to JC Penny.  There were clear guidelines which even stated what shoes to wear.   Folks were proud to wear their uniform and there was even a designated Scout Week where everyone could wear their uniform to school.   Now, it seems that the issue of proper uniform guidelines is dead in the water.  Everything is suggested or ignored.  Shorts, pants, skirts, kilts, lycra body suits, blue jeans or kaki military trousers.  Ball cap, campaign or bush hat, ostrich feathers or rooster tails.  How many knots can you wear, what patches can go over the right pocket, can I wear an old jamboree patch, what neckerchief can I  use, closed toe shoes or clogs.............the list and debate goes on and on.  I would just like to see Scout shorts and a Scout themed T-shirt at national events where everyone participating is representing Scouting, and not a Marianas parade🤐

Wow, I  remember that if you wanted to purchase a Scout uniform you had to take your BSA ID card to JC Penny.  There were clear guidelines which even stated what shoes to wear.   Folks were proud to wear their uniform and there was even a designated Scout Week where everyone could wear their uniform to school.   Now, it seems that the issue of proper uniform guidelines is dead in the water.  Everything is suggested or ignored.  Shorts, pants, skirts, kilts, lycra body suits, blue jeans or kaki military trousers.  Ball cap, campaign or bush hat, ostrich feathers or rooster tails.  How many knots can you wear, what patches can go over the right pocket, can I wear an old jamboree patch, what neckerchief can I  use, closed toe shoes or clogs.............the list and debate goes on and on.  I would just like to see Scout shorts and a Scout themed T-shirt at national events where everyone participating is representing Scouting, and not a Marianas parade🤐