yknot

In my opinion this is the nut. This attitude. If we don't get past it we'll lose scouting. It is not about blame. It is about minimizing risk.

I think discussions about youth protection in the context of the religious institutions that have been involved in scouting, of which LDS is certainly a dominant one, are perhaps some of the most relevant discussions on this forum. Trying to understand the differing attitudes among all the players involved regarding youth protection policies, training, reporting, etc., has been central to this our greatest crisis and will be exquisitely relevant to any future survival of the BSA. We have to be willing to be brutally honest that we have had attitudes, policies, beliefs, and procedures that have not worked and despite great improvements are still not working as well as they could. I'm Catholic, attend Methodist, and have ecumenical connection to other churches. I have the same discussions and ask the same kinds of questions in those arenas.

I took the time to re read my own comments to make sure I did not inadvertently say anything that could be construed as emotional or offensive because I would not want to do that. I did not. Virtually all my comments are factual -- stating state laws and resources, including ones that are used by BSA, and in some cases providing links. When I have disagreed with you and have been unable to follow your logic, I have clearly said so and been respectful in doing so. Frankly, I think you and others are having emotional reactions to statements of facts or opinions you don't agree with. I can understand something is your opinion, but I don't think it's emotional to say I don't agree with it or can't follow how you arrived at it.

Again, I'm sorry, but this seems like an awful lot of backflip rationalization to support protecting an institution and not a kid. Please, just re-read all that you have written. You have put an awful lot of thought into defending deferred reporting.

This is something I had trouble with with my last AOL den. They were very well prepared for cross over. The Troop though went through Scout very laboriously with a couple of fun exceptions. Then, all cross overs had to sign up for a Dan Beard program at summer camp, which the kids started calling Dan Bored, and did a lot of the same stuff all over again. The Troop lost about a third of the boys that first fall because they were bored stinkless. I think it's important to honor the progression but also realize it can seem very repetitive and boring to 10 and 11 year old kids. People have talked about kids burning out on cubs and I think some of the repetitiveness, especially the last 18 months in cubs and the first year in troop, is one reason why.

Nowhere in this list do they address the volunteer problem for one.

In my state everyone is a mandatory reporter and the requirement is that the abuse be reported immediately to an identified state agency and possibly 911. I think that's pretty clear. Again, I'm not clear why there is this degree of pushback on immediate reporting. Who is it protecting? Your scenario of 9 p.m. vs. 1 p.m. is fictional. You or I have no idea how the reporting process would work once it veers outside of what is legislated or inferred or seems responsible. I don't care what my position or role in an organization is, if I see child sexual abuse occurring, hear it occurring, or suspect it is occurring I am immediately calling legal authorities, not legal counsel. It is discussions like this one that make me question whether scouting should continue. If the focus isn't on protecting kids, then ...

Once again, I am having trouble with the logic. I think a lot of religions have positions that are in some kind of gray area as do plenty of other fields. Doesn't change the fact that you are a mandatory reporter. That's a failing of the organization if it doesn't adequately inform its members of their responsibilities and train them if needed.

That could be true except a priest is not a layman in this situation. They are a mandatory reporter in many if not most states. They would be, or should be, at least as conversant with reporting requirements as would be a licensed driver would be with traffic law. Especially given the abuse environment since the 1980s. This is not new or surprising information to any clergy in just about any church.

I'm still having trouble following this logic. When I see flashing lights behind me, I don't call my lawyer before pulling over for a traffic stop and complying. The laws in each state are pretty generally known to residents in those states. I don't understand what is being advocated for here or why.

"Who h'are you? I must know...." -- Inigo Montoya. The Princess Bride

Perhaps the only outside way to effect it now would be AG investigations in various states that might uncover some of the dysfunction that is inherent in the organization. Scouting insiders have become like boiled frogs -- we are accepting of the dysfunction to some degree. More outside light is needed.

BSA uses CWIG as a base source for YP. Not sure what you mean. I'm also not clear what you are trying to show with this recap or what the purpose is. Correct me if I'm wrong but this discussion started with a line on an internal church form that advised priests to contact internal legal counsel first before reporting abuse. If I understand you correctly, you are saying based on the above, it is reasonable for XYZ church institution to direct its mandatory reporting personnel to contact legal first. I look at this same information above and that seems not at all reasonable. The intent of all these laws, despite some of the different permutations, are clear: that suspected abuse should be reported promptly to authorities who will do something about it in a timely manner in order to prevent more abuse. There is a special onus placed on anyone who is a mandatory reporter and institutions may not interfere. There are some very specific situations, such as perhaps a priest hearing an admission of abuse in a one on one confession, that could be considered a privileged communication and might be legitimate cause for a legal consult, but the initial form we were discussing went far beyond that kind of limited situation.

I want BSA to survive. Right now I don't trust it to. There are so many comments on this board and elsewhere that make me think that a reconstituted BSA would simply be the 2.0 version of what we have. If that happens, the next crisis is merely around the corner. The idea of making decisions now about scouting's future with the current leadership in place with no plan or road map that indicates any real internal analysis has taken place seems like history waiting to repeat itself. I was hopeful that bankruptcy would lead to a complete restructuring that would address some of the inherent dysfunction. It doesn't seem to be happening. The only new plan I've been hearing for post bankruptcy scouting is the same plan we've been hearing connected to the old one: increase membership.

I completely agree and have made many similar comments over the years. There is no defense for near zero communication from top leadership. All good leaders communicate. We needed a general but have gotten what feels like a car pool driver. A nice bland guy who will move us down the road instead of leading the way.

It was pretty awful. I kept waiting for the cat face filter to pop up.

Again, I'm sorry, but I am not reading this the same way you are. In 9 states the mandatory reporter is required to report directly to authorities first, not to an institutional head or resource, and in 17 states there is a variation of that. https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/manda.pdf I think the Sandusky case showed the dangers of having indirect reporting and it seems like some of that has been tightened up.

A lot of the information in this seems to indicate differently. https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/clergymandated.pdf

It may not be the way we want it to be but if it is the way it is, does it do any good to ignore it? You will never have a chance of influencing different behaviors if you can't even get them to knock on the door.

Yes that really is one of the best things that Qwazse has ever said. It is so profoundly true. Why, though, is scouting having such a hard time seeing this?

I'm not sure. I'm looking right at the bottom of the form and it says priest should never be advised to report abuse but that it should come from legal counsel. If I'm misreading that, by all means show me but it seems pretty clear.

This seems very ineffective. The policy you see it you report it seems to be the standard of the day.

We had one. No help, just hindrance. And a very, very strange guy to boot

I can't think of a single media occasion either in all the years I've been involved even going back well before pre bankruptcy days. Only time I remember to the membership was Surbaugh asking us to fill out surveys about opening up to girls and how whatever was decided would be implemented gradually. Then about three days later it was announced as already happening lol.

I meant what I said -- promoting from within hasn't produced great leaders for us. YMCA, on the other hand, whether he came from within or without, seems to have a good leader. YMCA has weathered its share of controversies over the years but seems better positioned than ever before. Can't say the same for BSA.