yknot

Again, really? You're going to focus on a few uniforms and books in light of the glacial disaster that is BSA?

Okayyyy... but there is more than dollars at stake here. A lot more. We have a vanishing percentage of Americans involved in scouting. These folks are our friends, members, advocates and ambassadors. I wouldn't cut anyone loose who is in the scouting fold right now. Whatever thousands they are costing it is a drop in the bucket compared to the billions being discussed in this bankruptcy. I feel like we need to focus on the relevant stuff here.

I agree with focusing on the key problems. However, throughout this whole sorry process, there has been so much deflection of blame and responsibility to things that really aren't all that relevant to the bigger issues at hand. I hardly see how Venturing or Explorers or Sea Scouts have any significant bearing on what is happening to scouting.

If it's a tiny portion of the program how is it even relevant in the middle of this massive mess. Spinning off these programs is hardly going to make a dent in any issues the BSA is facing right now.

How is this not a YP issue?

I have also wondered this. They couldn't possibly be this stupid. It's possible they might have some kind of back pocket plan.

Everyone has amazon boxes and packing junk at home right now, right? Tell them to bring boxes, bags, duct tape, whatever. Whoever creates the most amazing Recycling Creature wins a prize. However, if you can go outside, do something outside. Flashlights. Night hike. Talk about nocturnal animals. Even in cities you've got rats, raccoons and bats.

That's a pretty slick PR website and package. I wonder where the funding did come from? At least one of those people has connections to a Council with cases of concern and very significant assets to lose. Also it's a pretty common PR strategy when you can't speak for yourself to find a so called objective third party defender. It was something I thought they should have tried a couple of years ago when this all started to counter the firehose of bad publicity. However, my overall reaction is one of sadness. Whether it is genuinely just three sincere guys who love scouting and put their own money up to help, or some kind of behind the scenes proxy strategy, it seems too little, too late, and too vague. A petition with a million names would be nice, but of what possible real use could it be.

I meant anger more in general. It's a frequent comment that the COs should be held liable and not BSA. The model has been willfully dysfunctional, as you point out, for decades. This is known.

It is a huge problem but I don't understand the anger directed at COs. BSA through the Councils has a supervisory responsibility. If COs are dysfunctional, which many are, why are their charters routinely renewed? The answer is that BSA has always promoted membership and numbers over proper management. Many COs are legacy churches or community organizations. All they know is that some nice person from scouts comes to see them once a year so they can sign some paperwork, and BSA has had no interest in rocking the boat except in extreme situations.

Resist the temptation to eat one for breakfast. Their population has declined dramatically in the past few decades. You'll be able to tell your grandkids you heard them thanks to scouting.

If Scouting is true to its own character, there is a debt of honor to be paid to victims. It happened on our watch, whether that was 50 years ago or today. Either we all believe in the same moral code and we take care of our own, or we don't.. If we don't, then scouting truly is dead in my mind. Even if it survives in some other format in name, what it supposedly stood for will be, in terms of character, forever gone.

I love Norman Rockwell although for me the painter who rocked my world was Rembrandt. Rockwell traced most of his paintings from photographs; Rembrandt's were paintings from life that were so real, some of them look like photographs despite the fact they were painted in the 1600s. Amazing.

They are meaningless in that they are tactical aspects of what is an overall strategic problem: There are broad organizational reasons why BSA is in the situation it is in. You could find a way to "fix" those two problems and still continue to have abuse cases if overall structural issues that create those situations in the first place are not addressed. These structural issues have been discussed ad nauseum on this site for years so they are easy to find if you want examples.

Those points are meaningless in this context. At best, they can pointed to as excuses for YP failure. The claimants are looking for competency in YP as one of their demands for the BSA to go forward.

Part of the issue with YP is also that BSA has not been honest. In a letter to Congress it said it supported look back legislation but at the same time spent millions quietly lobbying to fight such legislation. In the same letter to Congress, it also claimed it had never allowed a known perpetrator to return to scouting but that claim later had to be recanted when it was found to be untrue. BSA has known it has had issues with predators almost since its inception and yet for many years it pretended such problems didn't exist and only acknowledged the ineligible volunteer files as a result of a lawsuit. Over the years BSA has claimed a lot of things about YP but that doesn't always reflect the reality.

Those situations aren't analogous with what we're talking about. Immunity from blame implies that some kind of fault has occurred. We're talking about child abuse. Immunity is irrelevant when it comes to its victims.

Thanks. I think if there is any idea here that abused kids were somehow to blame for their abuse and the adults and responsible organization weren't, there's not much that can be rationally discussed.

We are fortunate that ThenNow has been willing to engage on this site and be so open about his personal situation. I've learned a lot from his perspective and I hope others feel that way too. Doing so, however, has left him open to jabs from newcomers who don't have history here and don't know what he has already explained, as well as even from regulars who are still struggling with trying to come to grips with the tragedy of what BSA is facing. Whatever it is, it is not ThenNow's fault. He's been trying to explain the unexplainable to us. It's clear BSA never protected him or kids like him, and despite pretty words now, it's also clear they really would rather he and his brethren would just go away. I feel like those of us on this forum who have listened to him over these past months are his scouting brother and sister hood and owe him at the very least a safe place to speak his piece. We may not always like what he reveals but we have to respect his bravery and honesty in doing so.

BSA must have some data available because their insurers would certainly track it. A few years ago, there was some reporting in one of the annual reports although that has since stopped or at least I have been unable to find it since. It also wouldn't be that difficult to include some basic unit level reporting on the JTE forms. That could be collated and shared. BSA already does this for merit badges, volunteer hours, and the like.

Schools have increased security measures for a variety of reasons and they are all related to child safety and thus completely relevant to this discussion and scouting. We've got issues in our units with custodial parents, grandparents, and guardians, restraining orders, and the like. File photo IDs may be coming soon to a BSA unit near you.

Exactly. It's pointless and used as a distraction to avoid focusing on real issues. For instance, why have we never, ever seen any reporting or data on where and when abuse or injury cases have been most likely to occur in the scouting environment. I'm not talking about personal details just useful statistics, like most incidents have occurred at overnight campouts vs. troop or pack meetings or vice versa. We have nada. The only hint we have is when some new Thou Shalt Not is issued.

Yes. There's that too. Thanks.

Just as with sports, scouting experiences can be variable. There are plenty of troops out there that are run as paramilitary boot camps with lots of barking, shouting and shaming. It might not be the same kind of high pressure competitive environment as you get in a fast moving sport, but the verbal abuse is the same. My kids have been in all kinds of environments -- bad coaches, good coaches, bad scoutmasters, good scoutmasters. Sounds like we would have welcomed you, because I agree those are the kinds of situations where a strongly worded adult viewpoint would be helpful.

A lot of field cams do stream 24/7. Log on to some of them and you'll see. Even if they are pay for view, the camera is still recording. No one worries about switching it on or off. But physical abuse hardly happens on the fields. The main use of cameras is deterrence. Every coach, teacher, and school employee knows they are there and recording what they are doing, what hallways they are in, what buildings they are accessing and what kids are in there with them. Most schools are also no longer open access and you have to be buzzed in both during and after hours. You must live in a nice area if your school still has an open campus because it's no longer the norm.