Jameson76

On 7/1/2021 at 2:48 PM, fred8033 said:

Probably re-hashing a really old argument yet another time.  ... I agree that we don't need to keep re-imaging BSA and the programs.  I would say though that I disagree on the strengths.  I feel like a church member who still has faith, but is now questioning one of the long-promised values. 

Leadership.  I just don't think troops teach it well.  I question focusing on leadership.  I question encouraging adults to teach leadership.  Scouts will learn leadership naturally by trying to get their scouts out doing things.  Be active, etc.  

I never wanted my scouts to be in scouting because of "leadership".   Sure it might become a side benefit.  I wanted them in it to do things I would not do with them on my own.  Or skills I did not have at that time.  ... To also build life-long friendships.   To get experiences.  To be more independent of me.  But, "leadership".  I'm not sure I would join BSA to get my kid to learn leadership.

I don't disagree on "teaching" leadership.  My definition would the experiential leadership learning that occurs when a troop functions.  As a patrol leaders how do you get things done, what works and what doesn't work.  When do you have to involve the SPL, when do have to go through the woods and involve the adult leaders?  That is the leadership I was referring to.

When Scouting is done correctly in the wild, Scouts (the youth ones), learn how to manage and get things done in their group of peers.  They learn if they do not adhere to some type of timetable stuff does not in fact get done.  They learn to assign tasks, to divide duties, that working together can be successful.  They learn that not everyone can do every task to the same skill.  Timmy may can cook, Tommy can tie knots, Davey can figure out where to setup tents, Joey can start a fire, etc etc.  Together they can accomplish more than they can do separately.  That is the leadership I was referring to.

Organizing a police line, fixing a tarp in the rain, determining how to cook a meal when key ingredients are left at home, and working with the new Scout as they learn the ropes.  That is the leadership I meant.

Maybe Self Confidence / Self Determination / Self Reliance could be a better description.  Understanding they can be in charge of their own destiny and are ultimately responsible for the CHOICES THEY make

That is what we are selling and the benefits of Scouting (and having fun and not realizing they are getting some learning)

22 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

Wow that must be a well funded LC. The SE salary is crazy!!!!!

We have said the same thing

6 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

What is typical first year percentage?

Typically at summer camps 30% - 40% and I would assume the same for Philmont.  Our council camp was the same as most staff typically work +/- 3 summers.  This year about 2/3 new as opposed to 1/3

4 hours ago, elitts said:

The problem I see with that list isn't so much the number of employees, it's the amount of "senior leadership".  There are 22 people with titles that would indicate "senior leadership" out of a staff of 56, and that excludes the District Executives.  To my eyes, that's WAY to many leadership positions for a staff that size.  Of course without salaries and job descriptsions it's hard to know if they are truly "executive level" staff or if the councils simply suffer from title inflation the way banks do.

But to provide some contrast, I work in a similar sized organization.  It's a local government unit with a full time staff of like 53-54 and our monthly leadership meetings include a whole 9 people, including the Township Manager. (and that includes the part time fire chief)

On the salaries - From the 2019 - form 990

(CEO/Secretary) Base, Bonus, other compensation $459,042 - Total compensation (retirement / nontaxable) - $622,731
(Deputy Scout Executive) Base, Bonus, other compensation  $189,411 - Total compensation (retirement / nontaxable) - $261,6901
(Director of Development/) Base, Bonus, other compensation  $155,602 - Total compensation (retirement / nontaxable) - $177,294
(Director of Field Service) Base, Bonus, other compensation    $151,268 - Total compensation (retirement / nontaxable) - $194,938
(Director of Support Service) Base, Bonus, other compensation    $146,684 - Total compensation (retirement / nontaxable) - $185,891
(Accounting Manager) Base, Bonus, other compensation     $101,634 - Total compensation (retirement / nontaxable) - $165,897

For 2019 revenue of $14.3 MM and salaries and other compensation $6.5 MM

3 hours ago, Arkie said:

Long time lurker, first time poster who attended summer camp for the first time last week as an adult leader (son attended for his first time as well).  

20+ Scouts and 5+ leaders from our troop with a total of around 400 Scouts in camp. 

I would echo almost every one of your points based on feedback from the other more experienced leaders and my own observations.  Our main issue was with inexperienced/first year staff, some with what appeared to be extremely limited Scouting experience.  Lots of bickering among staff in front of the Scouts; requirements in the Green Bar area not being completed due to staff deciding not to instruct the rest of the session time; merit badge requirements being signed off without actually being completed and/or requirements being completed but not signed off.  

However, Scouts enjoyed it and felt the week was an overall positive, so all of this is just adult grumbling.  Wouldn't trade the experience and look forward to many more.   - Arkie

On the experience of staff, feedback is that at Philmont, which has about 1,500 - 1,800 seasonal staff, they were indicating that 2/3 of the staff are first year.  Lots of staff did not return and the "institutional knowledge" has not been passed on due to the pandemic gap.

We had discussion with the camp director in the later winter at the council camp concerning Block Schedule or Cohorts, that was NOT in their plan.  They wanted to have a NORMAL camp or maybe not at all.

They are in week 4 of 8 now.  We went week 2.  Maybe 1,000 scouts a week.  Basically ran like normal.  Maybe more emphasis on hand washing before meals, but no real changes.  Scouts had a great time.  Very very few masks, but we are in the Southeast.

If they had programmed with block schedules or required cohorts we would have run our own summer camp like we did in 2020

Interesting questions and one we have asked many times in our council.  It is a rather LARGE list of characters.  Honestly do not know what they all do.   With the advances in technology most of the mundane items should be automatic.

For our Council 56 professional / hired staff

Several Development and Marketing. Only about 25% are actual unit facing staff (Sr DE, DE or the apparent title District Director).  I keep hearing recruitment but honestly, the local DE does not even know who the unit leaders are as we try to coordinate with the packs.  Guy has two districts, maybe 30 units TOTAL and we've never really seen him.

Amazing all the overhead.

The old question holds true in our council - Do you raise money to have Scouting OR do you have Scouting to be able to raise money.  We are definitely in the latter part of that with the council holding actual leaders that do actual Scouting in low regard.  We are polite and reciprocate that feeling, basically ignoring them.

COUNCIL STAFF - Seems to be 56.  Professional staff and hourly non-professional.  There are 5 rangers but the councils does have 3 large properties.

Scout Executive/CEO    1
Deputy Scout Executive    1
Director of Safe Scouting & Support    1
Safe Scouting & Operations Director    1
Director of Camping and Customer Service    1
Director of Development & Marketing    1
Senior Development Director    1
Development Director    3
Development Team Coordinator    1
Marketing and Communications Director    1
Director of Field Service    1
Senior Field Director    1
Assistant Director of Field Service and Scoutreach Director    1
Program Director    1
Field Director    2
Senior District Executive    1
District Director    3
District Executive    11
Field Service Administration Support    1
Program Specialist    4
Program Specialist and Brand Ambassador    1
Program Center Manager/ Registrar    1
Accounting Manager    1
Accounts Receivable & Fundraising Specialist    1
Assistant Accounting Manager    1
Camping and Program Assistant    1
Customer Service Specialist    2
Building & Print Shop Manager    1
Camp Ranger    5
Executive Assistant    1
Executive Assistant Field Service    1
Executive Assistant to Scout Executive/CEO    1
Maintenance    1
 

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

Interesting (although not surprising) to hear that so many units share the same struggles and lack of district/council leadership on keeping meetings going during the shutdown. I'm less than enthused lately about many council-related topics and lack of support, so I guess this shouldn't have been a surprise either. My council comes around when they want money. When we need them, forget it.

Our local Packs and Troops have held meetings outdoors and done pretty well despite having to go it alone and figure things out. I don't know exactly what I expected from council but it would have been nice to see them make an effort. All they did around here was organize a virtual district Pinewood Derby and then never delivered the trophies they were supposed to get.

I agree about "don't know exactly what I expected from council but it would have been nice to see them make an effort".  It seems the council felt virtual was the best thing ever and the less they had to do.  Could still raise money, still pay salaries, close the camps so money saved there but no real PROGRAM input.  Candidly we don't really need them, so over the years we don't look to district or council for anything but filing paperwork.

And they wonder why we don't sell popcorn or really care about FOS

Troop was at summer camp last week.  We had 20 + Scouts and 5 leaders.  Total of about 1,000 Scouts, 150 leaders, 125 staff (+/-) in camp.  Nice to be back after running our own camp last year

• Program ran like normal, which was good
  • No cohorts or group requirements
• Some changes to food service, but not onerous
• The camp was somewhat short staffed
  • Main challenge was college aged Scouts as colleges had reduced tuitions for the summer
  • Also pay challenges with other businesses paying more and jobs plentiful
• Talked with leaders and most (like our unit) felt the virtual meetings were not a good replacement to move Scouting along
• All seemed to have found a way to meet during the pandemic and with CO's shut down
  • NOTE - none mentioned (including our unit) of any district or council proactive leadership on this 
• All units seemed to have lost some newer Scouts during the crossover and shutdown of Mar 2020 - June 2020, most have reached out to those Scouts but not much traction
• Many units are concerned for the health of the Cub Packs they work with
  • Some not meeting
  • Some are down 50%
  • Will be an issue on progression of youth in the program next several years
• Camp has a leader dinner on Thursday, would have been good to have SE there acknowledging the struggle is real with COVID and bankruptcy
  • Maybe acknowledging the future is charted but not 100%
  • Maybe thank the leaders not only for being at camp but also for in fact still being in Scouting and still working to bring the promise of Scouting to youth
  • A missed opportunity though not unexpected as the Senior Professionals on the Council seem to have a disdain for the lowly unit leaders
• The property was in decent shape despite not much use for the last year
• Scouts had a great time

I was at our council camp last week.  Wandered around picking out my potential new home site.  Mountain and lake view preferred.

Just kidding but sad that the properties are clearly in the discussion.

5 hours ago, karunamom3 said:

This is our newer units first summer camp. (Last year we did virtual).

Who decides patrols and tent mates? I have read that units have either adults or scouts choose for summer camp. Seems like its more the adults choosing for summer camp. What do you do?

Give me your best summer camp advice.

Thanks

Good questions.  If your whole troop is attending maybe let the patrols be the patrols.  We typically build on the existing patrols and get an even number in each patrol.  Then there is a duty roster for the day / week and each patrol has assigned responsibilities that vary by day.  Flags, waiter duty at the dining hall, site trash haul out, latrine cleanup, filling the water and gatorade.  PL's lead that.

On the tent mates we let the Scouts select who they will tent with.  Honestly about 95% or our Scouts sleep in hammocks, so the tent is more of a warehouse.

Look over the forms from the camp.  Work with your SPL or Camp SPL on activities the troop can do together as part of the program.  DO NOT OVER SCHEDULE.  Sometimes Scouts hanging out playing card games is the best thing.  Most camps have free or open activity time, let them select.

Also we have them days for the troop so out Scouts have similar things they wear.  Favorite sports teams day, Superhero day, Camouflage day, College Booster Day, Merica Monday etc etc

Above all, HAVE FUN

The challenge we had with cell phones was that it limited actual social interaction.  A few years back it was did not want to see them out, use them for music in the tent, etc.  As leaders we did not want to be the cell phone police.   It was a decision that worked for us.  With no phones there were more group games, short hikes, cornhole games, and group interaction than a bunch of Scouts hunched around phones.

Basically we do not allow them at meetings or actually at the outing.  To and from yes.  If we are someplace that may be of photo value absolutely.  Scouts leave them in glove compartments of cars or in a box we have.  Had one Scout working on a PE class for school last week at summer camp, he came and got it, did his work and exercise thing, dropped it back off.  We even lent him some battery power to charge.

14 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Ditto.

Here, our district has two major challenges.  

1.  No Commissioner Corps to speak of...  (There is no one to help units know what "right" looks like.)

Never really seen commissioners, concept is great, just never really seen on in many many (oh so many) years as a leader

14 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

2. The District schedules too many events, if you can believe it...  

Who really cares.  Do what is BEST for YOUR unit.  The most poorly attended events for our unit were the camporees and council events.  They did not resonate with our guys, so, the Greenbar leadership dropped them.  They did ask if they could and we advised they decided on the program, so that's what we did.

14 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And you are castigated if you don't attend/support the events.  It is like the district is planning a whole Troop program year so the Troops don't have to.  When I am asked why we weren't at such and such an event, I simply say, "Because the PLC decided they wanted to do something else."  And, unfortunately, that answer is not acceptable to most in our council.  smh

Who actually cares what the district or council thinks about how YOUR Scouts run THEIR program.  If you get grief at roundtables, don't attend those events.  Who needs that in their life.  

Our focus is on the Scouts in our unit.  

$72 for youth.  Yeah yeah, great value etc, but it is getting pricey

Over the last year, we have seen the Scouting community come together, even while being physically apart, to bring solutions, relief and comfort to those in need. Scouting continues to be a vital partner for communities across the country.

The value of Scouting is undeniable for those within the program and the greater public, and the Boy Scouts of America is committed to continuing to offer this unmatched opportunity to young people and families nationwide. It is important that we all reach out to Scouting families who might have left the program due to pandemic reasons and invite them back. We should also be thinking about how to invite new families to join.

The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) has worked to keep the membership fee as low as possible. Unfortunately, operating costs have continued to rise, and COVID-19 has compounded the need to increase the fee to maintain the program.

To ensure we have the resources to fulfill the promise of Scouting, the updated national membership fee is

• $72 for Cub Scouts, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouts participants
• $45 for Exploring participants
• $30 for council-paid memberships
• $45 for all adult volunteers (includes cost of background check)
• $75 for a unit charter fee

The membership fees will take effect August 1, 2021, for the 2021-2022 program year.

The one-time $25 joining fee for new program participants in Cub Scouts, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouts is still required; however, there is no joining fee for Exploring participants, participants previously registered in any BSA program, those transferring from one program to another, council-paid memberships, or adult volunteers.

13 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I can’t tell if you are being facetious or not. Our unit commissioner attends all Pack, Boy Troop, and girl troop meetings. He lets us know when he can’t. He also attends a normal unit meeting of each, each month or so. He does this for three COs. Each have 2 or 3 units. So, I’m the 3 years I have been on the troop committee, the commissioner is always there to help. He does a great great job of not “getting in the way”, but is there when needed. 

Been called many things, yes facetious is one them.  In this case I am bring very factual from my own experience

The CONCEPT of the commissioner is right on target.  The execution in most cases is lacking

2 hours ago, Owls_are_cool said:

We (the Key 3) meet with a unit commissioner yearly and identify areas where my troop needs to improve (maybe needs more focus?). This document points to this meeting a bit. I find this meeting benefits myself and my troop. 

2 hours ago, John-in-KC said:

This implies the Council has enough Commissioners to support this course of action.

One reason I ceased registering as a Scouter/commish was … wait for it … metric management.   I was not about to force my units to do lean six sigma data input. 

 

You guys seriously meet with commissioners? Unless there are pics, gonna call that "unproven"

We are in a large council and they seem to have professional staff all over the place (at least 5 in marketing and untold number in "development")  On paper there seem to be Commissioners; Council, assist Council. asst to the regional manager commissioner, Commissioner colleges, commissioner meetings, etc etc.  They seem to have commissioner gathering at times.

In our District on the calendar there is a monthly commissioner meeting.

In 40 years as a leader in 4 different councils, 5 different troops I have met a commissioner once.  With my current troop over the last 14 years never seen one.  Concept is great, reality is much different.

7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I cannot remember the last time a present or former BSA president/CSE/CEO spoke directly about our program on network TV or to us for that matter.

 

No BSA President ever seems to speak, or be the driver for the program.  Same at the Council level.  Overall BSA Marketing is non-existent.  The very few efforts seem to be aimed at I am not sure.  They are not trying to excite young people to join, they do not seemed to be aimed at parents to entice to get their kids involved.

13 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Membership  Levels  –  Membership  levels  are  assumed  to  decrease  in  2021  by  13%, primarily due to the impact of COVID-19 on programing, but are forecasted to stabilize between  2023  to  2024  and  achieve  modest  growth  in  2024  and  2025  driven  by  the following factors:

This reminds me of every sales forecast meeting I have ever attended.  Yes, sales this year are down or flat, but in 4 to 5 years they will increase.  Skip forward 4 to 5 years and they basically just change the dates and use the same data and slides again.

To assume there will be modest growth in 4 to 5 years, when there has been a steady decline in membership for 40 years is at best a fantasy.  There has NOT been a concrete plan presented to change the trajectory, and my thoughts are that "increase membership fees" and "increase the burden on volunteers" is not a winning strategy.

23 hours ago, yknot said:

It depends on who is asking. HIPAA only applies in the healthcare setting and it merely protects against providers sharing your medical records against your will. An employer, school, business, or anyone who isn't affiliated with those entities can legally ask your vaccine status. They as of now can't mandate it, but they can make decisions based on whatever information you supply on whether or not they want to hire, serve, or admit you. In other threads it has been discussed that while BSA may not require a vaccine for scouting participation, a CO certainly can based on what they think their liability risks or even just unique levels of concern are. 

 

Sort of kind of - but there is the privacy rule.  It is specific but also broad.  Not sure a unit would want to go down the road of requiring something and requiring proof of said something.  Not 100% sure how this would apply to a Scout unit and I going to bet a CO would not want to have to find out

HIPAA Privacy Rule
The Privacy Rule standards address the use and disclosure of individuals’ health information (known as “protected health information”) by entities subject to the Privacy Rule. These individuals and organizations are called “covered entities.” The Privacy Rule also contains standards for individuals’ rights to understand and control how their health information is used. A major goal of the Privacy Rule is to ensure that individuals’ health information is properly protected while allowing the flow of health information needed to provide and promote high quality health care and to protect the public’s health and well-being. The Privacy Rule strikes a balance that permits important uses of information while protecting the privacy of people who seek care and healing.

Covered Entities
The following types of individuals and organizations are subject to the Privacy Rule and considered covered entities:

Healthcare providers: Every healthcare provider, regardless of size of practice, who electronically transmits health information in connection with certain transactions. These transactions include claims, benefit eligibility inquiries, referral authorization requests, and other transactions for which HHS has established standards under the HIPAA Transactions Rule.

Health plans: Entities that provide or pay the cost of medical care. Health plans include health, dental, vision, and prescription drug insurers; health maintenance organizations (HMOs); Medicare, Medicaid, Medicare+Choice, and Medicare supplement insurers; and long-term care insurers (excluding nursing home fixed-indemnity policies). Health plans also include employer-sponsored group health plans, government- and church-sponsored health plans, and multi-employer health plans.

Exception: A group health plan with fewer than 50 participants that is administered solely by the employer that established and maintains the plan is not a covered entity.

Healthcare clearinghouses: Entities that process nonstandard information they receive from another entity into a standard (i.e., standard format or data content), or vice versa. In most instances, healthcare clearinghouses will receive individually identifiable health information only when they are providing these processing services to a health plan or healthcare provider as a business associate.
Business associates: A person or organization (other than a member of a covered entity’s workforce) using or disclosing individually identifiable health information to perform or provide functions, activities, or services for a covered entity. These functions, activities, or services include claims processing, data analysis, utilization review, and billing.

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I had never heard of troops taking the summer off until I moved to NC. That's when I encountered my first troop that took a summer break except for summer camp and high adventure. No meetings, activities, other camp outs occur during the summer. IT BLEW MY MIND! (emphasis) Troop I grew up in not only met year-round,  but summer was when we were more active because we didn't have to deal with school.

As for being inactive for 3 months and it counts, I do not like it one bit.

We have tried to have meetings in the summer, but with local swim teams in June, vacations, holidays, other camps, etc etc it just did not work.  We are somewhat active in the summer with week long camps in June and July.  We have meetings prior to the camps and do HA each year.  

Basically from the end of school (Memorial Day) to First week of August (when school starts) we do not have regular meetings.  

For reference our troop has +/- 60 registered Scouts and +/- 20 leaders

We restarted out troop activities in July of 2020 holding our own weeklong summer camp.  35 Scouts and Leaders, we did not require masks, but you could wear one if wanted.  We were 100% outside, 1 Scout / Leader per tent, no carpooling.  

The troop started meeting in person in August, again 100% outside, at a park pavilion near the CO, masks not required.  Also we started outings in August and have since then had 8 outdoor events; aquatics, kayaking, backpacking, AOL / Webelos visit, Winter trip to coast, more backpacking, wide game, and a ropes course.  The unit averaged about 30 Scouts per event.  Again, all 100% outside and we have done carpooling but limited the number in cars, (no middle seats).  Again no masks required.  One scout per tent and no hammock stacking.

Our weekly meetings are 100% outside (we are in the south) and fortunately our troop even before the pandemic utilized a large outdoor meeting area behind the CO, so that part was easy.  If it rains we may call the meeting and do virtual.

While this is anecdotal, looking back over the last 10 months, to our knowledge, we have not had any transmissions or COVID issues.  Parents do sign a COVID release.  The troop is 100% outside.  

Each unit needs to do what is right for them and their Scouts and families.  We have been very clear to the families what we are doing and what our plans have been.  The potential transmission while outside is very low.

On 4/11/2021 at 10:12 AM, Rock Doc said:

This weekend, a local council held a merit badge college where scouts were able to earn the Cooking Merit Badge in half a day! Apparently they followed some "Nationally-sanctioned" program. Anyone heard of this?

We held our own summer camp last year (don't know if you heard but there was some sort of pandemic or somesuch) and I did the Cooking merit badge.  Prerequisite was the home cooking, or they did it after camp and we reviewed.  The class planned the meals, good discussion ensued.  Then we loaded up the Scouts and headed to the store, shopped for the goods from a list, looked at budgets, and secured the food.

They cooked some of the meals for the camp (35 Scouts and leaders).  For the backpacking part we looked at stoves we took a hike and cooked meals.  

There is a lot to cooking.  Just the discussions on jobs, meals, safety, etc can take a couple of hours.  The cooking and cleaning, getting feedback takes time.  It can be fun and not onerous, but it does take time.

12 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

(6) There has been a marked shift from 16 to 17 year old Eagles to 13 to 15 year old Eagle Scouts.  Eagle rank is seen more as a destination rather than a part of a longer journey in Scouting. Young people are encouraged to move onto the next achievement. At the same time, by achieving the rank of Eagle Scout at an earlier age, fewer Scouts are being thrown off course by jobs, cars, dating, etc.

Average age for Eagle Scouts is (I think) 17.2 years of age, and that has been fairly consistent

52 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Every change always results in some people walking away. Allowing homosexual scouts. Allowing homosexual scout leaders. Allowing girls into Scouts, BSA and Cubs.

The question is how many?

What I suspect is: not that many,

 

Agree, likely not that many, but, how many times can there be not that many?  Sort of death by a thousand cuts?

At the end of the day, the BSA is an organization that "sells" the program to the "customers" who are adults and youth.  If a business puts in a change that may alienate some current customers, that is weighed against how many new customers will come and what will the net change to the customer base be.  Also will the change improve the profitability of the customer base, helping the health of the business.

Change and updates are inevitable and necessary.  How they are handled, communicated, and embraced is what defines the success of an organization.  The BSA track record is poor at best.  BoyPower Manpower in the 70's; Improved Scout Program in 74, reversed in 81; Flip Flopping on the homosexual acceptance that was handled poorly; Opening the program to girls, where the rollout was poor and survey justification thin to name a few.

Bottom line is membership, for many many reasons, is likely less than 1,000,000 youth members right now.  Official numbers show that from 2017 to 2020 (4 years) the membership of Cubs, Scouts, Ventures, and Explorers DROPPED 47%.  That is over 1,083,177 youth (and their families) no longer involved with the program.

Every action that BSA and the "High Level" volunteers take should be laser focused on how is that trend altered or changed.  Without that focus, the DEI Merit Badge rollout will be a moot point and if ever presented, it will be to an empty hall.