Buffalo Skipper

We are fortunate. Our COR is 70+ and retired. He was a executive for the regional power company for his entire career. He earned his Eagle with our troop in 1953. He was SM during the early 60s. His son earned his Eagle in the early 80s. In the mid 90s, he served as interim District Chair when someone steped down unexpectedly. He still serves on Eagle Boards (and has for some 20+ years). Being a product of the post WWII scouting era, he and I are in complete agreement on how the program should run.

I can hardly imagine a better COR if I could have "made" him myself.

Way to GO!!!

I am a part of the online hiking community. Do you have a journal with posthole, trailjournals or another source? Please let us know, I am already following 5 other thru-hikers this year and would like to add yours to my favorites from which I can keep up with it.

Good Luck and let us know.

Buffalo Skipper

AT Thru class of 2013 (hopefully!)

I would like to have a unit FOS where a former president of the United States introduced the guest speaker. Not bad for high profile and good representation for you unit.

And I thought we did well to have our County Commissioner and School Board Representative at our Pack's B&G two weeks ago...

No one here has attended Camp Davy Crockett?

Wow. I guess that tells me a lot about the camp.

For several years, our troop has done an immediate recognition at the end of a each meeting (we have a stock of patches). Then at the spring COH, we have a more formal induction ceremony. This year the SPL wants to present it to the scouts at the first campout, 3 weeks after they earn it. The following Tuesday will be the COH.

I don't like the idea of holding on to the badge for almost a month, but I will support the SPL and see how it goes.

I have always read this as described above, so I am not arguing that fact. But I guess I have to question WHY this is such an issue. Out of 19 scouts who have been in the troop for one year or more, all but 2 have met this requirement. One did not attend summer camp last year, and the other is just 1 campout short. Another, who joined in June has 16 days and will likely meet the 20 before his 1 year anniversery.

I had one scout come up to me concerned that he had not met the requirement before meeting with his counselor. He had been in the troop since October 09, after transferring from another troop which he was in for a year and a half. I did not have the previous troop records, but with only 1 summer camp with us (and discounting the 13 at the NJ), he had 47 nights. This includes OA activities, and 2 contingent NJ troop weekends (one of which caused him to miss the troop campout). I guess it is a culture that this is hard to do.

We camp 2 nights on every campout, and don't leave until after lunch on Sunday. I guess if a troop were only to camp Saturday night (1 night each month), this could be an issue.

If the troop is active, this should be easy for most every scout.

Have any of you beeen to Camp Davy Crockett recently? Our scouts choose this camp, so I would like to hear about your experiences with this camp....

Congratulations! To him and to you!

Eagle92, sorry if I came across critically, that was not my intention. In fact, as I said, I would be happy to know that classes at these gatherings were handled by counselors as skilled as you. I just don't know how to figure out in advance which counselors are doing things right and which are not. With a district MB list (which largely has the same counselors over a few years, as ours does) on can learn from scouts who is an who is not doing the job right.

Eagle92, you said "Now we did play games, so they had to go back to their troops to teach a game. letter to the SM explained that the SM could sign off of that requirement when they did it."

This statement truly concerns me, becaus as a SM, I have NO authority whatsoever to sign off any requirement for any MB, unless I am a registered counselor for that badge.  My responsibility, as a SM, is to find this scout a counselor with whom they can meet, so that the counselor can sign off the requirement.

Other than that, I would be overjoyed to send a scout to you at a MB program.  My problem is that I cannot reasonably know in advance which counselors at MBUs are good counselors and which are not.  It creates a definate conundrum for me.

SeattlePioneer, sounds like I am trying to foster a troop environment like you had way back when. It is a challenge to do this when the expectations of others are so very different.

A year ago, I volunteered to be a counselor for American Heritage MB at a Winter Camp. There were three 1:45 minute sessions. I sent out a message to all scouts in advance that there were several requirements they must do at home before coming to camp. In the message, I made it clear that for requirement 5 (do ONE of the following), we would focus on "a" (watch 2 motion pictures...), that we would only have time to watch one of these at camp (The Red Badge of Courage), and that they should watch another before arriving which we would discuss. Additionally, I offered that if they wanted to do either "b" or "c", they could and I would review this with them. Finally, I strongly suggested that all scouts have a merit badge book and that they familiarize themselves with the material before arriving.

None of the 12 particpants took the time to watch a movie, nor could a one of them come up with a movie they had seen to qualify. None of the scouts came prepared for "b" or "c." And only one brought a book, but he admitted he had not read it.

I tried to create a situation where scouts could complete the requirements, but none did the necessary work to complete these requirements, and hence I signed off 12 partials. I doubt that any of them finished the badge.

I did not "make it easy." Nor did I make it hard. I made it clear that I expected the scout to

At this same camp, my son was taking the Citizenship in the World MB. It was announced in advance that req 7c would be completed at camp, but that the rest of 7 could not be completed while at camp. I encouraged my son to follow up with a different requirement before arriving, and that maybe if he presented this to the counselor, he may get credit for this. So he ended up researching the website for the US State Department (7a), and he printed off material to demonstrate his work and completion of this requirement. He presented it to the counselor, who took it, passed it around to the entire class, and credited EVERY scout with requirement 7a. He is no longer interested in attending any MB clinics, and in fact has been a bit soured to the MB process.

My concern is that the expectations have been set so low by many parents that the scouts have little expectation to have to really work for even the easiest badges. In an effort to prevent embarrasing themselves, some counselors my "lower the bar," or as evidenced in the above experience, credited all in the class with one scouts work.

I was sorely disappointed as I observed that this substandard expectation is the norm. As a result, I have no desire to participate in any further events like this in the future, either as a counselor, or by encouraging my troop scouts to attend.

I too have seen things go awry when relating to "Family and Sibling" events. We used to have one particualar campout in which families and siblings were invited. When I became SM, and I was going on this activity for the first time, I saw family participation (including younger siblings) as being a serious safety issue, as it was primarily a snorkeling and boating event. From my perspective, I saw that this event was going to be difficult to pull off withing BSA guidelines with families coming along, so I said NO to the families.

As a result, only 6 of 20 scouts showed up, even though fundraising had covered most of the espense of the outing. Some of the families who made a stink about it all ended up leaving the troop (only 1 transfered to another troop).

Has anyone else had bad experiences with family/sibling campouts? How did you work to resolve these issues?

DLister, Welcome to the Forum! You will find a variety of ideas and opinions on this site. Unfortunetley, some of these different opinions and viewpoints can become polarizing. This is one of them. I was trying to present my original question in such a way to avoid a more pointed discussion.

There are some here who belive that MB clinics do not provide the scouting experience intended in the MB program. Speaking for Oak Tree and others, the issue is not whether witholding information from the scout is benefical, it is whether or not it is fair to the scout to involve them in a program which may fall short of scouting's standards and expectations.

Not trying to step on your toes. Rather than making this a heated debate about the merits or pitfalls of MB clinics/universities/midways/etc, I was trying to find a viewpoint of how troops who do not subscribe to the benefits of these programs can avoid involvement in them. Sorry if I was not clear in my original post. Hope I have not soured your first post. We are always glad to have new participants, and I, for one, welcome with open arms those whose opinions may differ from mine; on more than one occasion they have enlightened me to a different viewpoint.

Good luck. Please keep us posted.

Twocubdad, I agree with your last statement. And yes that is concerning. Last night I spoke to the adult who headed the event, and sometime after midnight, he emailed me the name of the counselor, who is, by the way, registered for both badges. I guess I am concerned that each of these badges could be earned in 2 sessions totalling 6 hours.

But first and foremost, there was no contact with me for this in advance. I intend to have a SM Conference with this scout this weekend, and I will advise him that effective immediately, he must discuss any MB with me before beginning. His parents will be an obstacle as well, as they are very interfering on the issues.

Here is part of the skinny on why I am asking this. I had a scout attend a recent event at our scout camp put on by the OA lodge. It is a combination campout, MB clinic and leadership training program. Our troop was not attending, as we had a unit conflict. Our SPL wanted to attend and went as a "contingent" scout with another troop. I was aware of this, but based on my conversation with the SPL, I understood he was staffing and working with the leadership training.

At this week's meeting, he drops off a piece of paper showing him as a contingent scout with another troop. He left before I had a chance to talk to him about it. It looks very much like this:

(First part, ID information for troop/contingent--omitted)

Youth Participant Results

...Personal info...

Morning Training Session: Architecture & Landscape Architecture Merit Badge

Morning Training Session Results: Completed All Requirements

Afternoon Training Session: Architecture & Landscape Architecture Merit Badge

Afternoon Training Session Results: Completed All Requirements

[end]

No counselor information. No listed requirements.

I never discussed any MBs with him, and this info is, by my ovservation, incomplete.

I will be meeting tonight with the OA Advisor in charge of the event, so I will question him about the meaning of the form.

I would like to hear your feedback on my original questions, with this situation in mind.

acco40, in my opinion, this would be a great opportuntiy to have a patrol campout, and if you ask me, adults should be present in this instance. If there is a lack of confidence on behalf of the adults (real or imagined), then the adults should attend. Also, if it has been 7 months since the scouts have camped, then having the adults around sounds like a prudent safety valve.

In other circumstances, I would recomend a patrol campout without adults. This would not be that time.

My 2

This is a specific question for leaders in units who do not attend MB clinics.

How do you deal with this in your troop? Do you just not announce/advertise the event? What do you do if a scout comes up to you and asks to attend? How does this all go over with parents and committee members, and how do you work through those issues?

I am not trying to be rude or to single anyone out, I am really just looking for information.

mn_scout, you wrote: "MB clinic/university/day/show/expo events remove a lot from that process."

I agree wholly, but rather than discussing the merits or pitfalls of clinics, I would ask, how do you apply the MB process to this situation?

Secondly, there both of you replied with the MB counselor information sheets. This is not usually a document at the fingertips of your average (or your above average) scout. Where does the the scout learn about this process.

Simple questions (yea right!):

1) What is the process by which a scout works on a merit badge? Generally speaking, what are the steps, from start to finish?

2) Is this process different for scouts who want to attend a merit badge clinic of some sort? If so, how?

3)Where is this information located for the benefit of the scout and the leaders?

Thank you all for your great ideas and insights. We have a cubmaster crossing over (who is on the District Committee, and whose wife is still Pack CC, youngest son will be a tiger next year); he has agreed to be our Webelos coordinator (as a MC, not ASM), which is good as our CO has 2 packs. He and I are friends (I am also close with his father, grandfather, and 2 aunts--big scouting family), and he was in scouts with 2 of our ASMs, 20 years ago. We also have a mom whom we have recently recruited to be the New Member Coordinator (also MC position). She is not an experienced scouter, but she sits in the back at every meeting, her son is very active, and she is personable and reliable, so we feel she will be able to fill these shoes effectively.

It really boils down to what we expect from each of them and how we divide the responsibilies. We are adding 2 or 3 ASMs this year (plus one who without serving double duty as a WDL, will be more available and involved). All in all, our troop is growing in size, maturity, experience, and organization.

Sure, and it is simple, if a little crazy. Start with standard capture the flag, but throw out the boundaries. We have actual flags that we use: Target $.99 dish towels with each a red, green or blue stripe on a carved stick/pole 2.5' long. Instead of actually tagging someone from another team, you must "shoot" them with your flashlight and call out by name. Let the scouts make the rest of the rules.

We used to do this on every campout I was on as a scout 30+ years ago. It was the most fun you could have imagined, and we did it on EVERY campout! It was what every scout looked forward to doing most! No adults ever got involved, and I keep our adults out of it with the troop also. The scouts actually reconoiter the area in daylight and decide where they want to play; decide on "out of bounds" and such.

Oh yea, and don't forget, using 3 teams really makes it extra special, and a little more exciting.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

For starters, I believe the joining requirement also states "...or have completed the 5th grade." We had unique situation last year. A week after crossover (first week of March), 5th grade boy wanted to join the pack. The boy and father were very interested. Unfortunatley there was little for this scout to do in a den which had already completed their Webelos Badge, and with an absolute minimum of 6 months required to earn the Webelos badge and the AOL, this boy had no chance to get the AOL. He ended up joining the pack (den) which was only meeting once or twice a month at this point. He attended a few den meetings, but he also attended (always accompanied by his father) some troop meetings and joined the troop (along with his father) for its April and May campouts. He followed all the appropriate rules as a visiting Webelos (which is exactly what he was). In June, he finished the 5th grade, joined the troop, and went with us to summer camp; he joined us to our second camp in July also.

It was not the ideal situation, but it was entirely within the guidelines of scouting. Had he not attended campouts in April and May, he would not have been prepared to camp with us in June or July. He has become an active scout, and his father is now our troop Chaplain. I would not want to handle every scout this way, but in this case it worked out for the best.

To me, patrol competition is paramount to the patrol method. We have patrol competitions at our meetings, whenever possible. We also have a Patrol of the Month ribbon, which is displayed on the patrol flags; this is based upon a combination of attendance, uniforming, advancement & merit badges earned, monthly campout campsite inspection, patrol duties, and patrol spirit; it is structured, but run by the SPL. At campouts we also have a "flashlight war," which is a cross between capture the flag and flashlight tag. We currently have 3 patrols, so we compete with 3 teams (fun!).