Buffalo Skipper

Hey everyone. I have been busy and distracted with issues and have not been around for a while. Our troop is growing and well (for those of you who used to keep up with our progress).

I have a question about how your troops handle its record keeping and proceedures: specifically applications. Humor me and direct me through the process of a new scout or new leader, who meets/greets the new member, what happens to the application, who records the information (Troopmaster or other system), takes registration to the scout office, and files the troop copies.

Right now, this all is my responsibility as Scoutmaster. It isn't that I am not capeable or willing to do this, but as our young troop is growing, I need to see that someone else is taking care of this for us. Our committee was mostly disfunctinal a year ago, and it is now much better, but there is lots of room for improvement; we have more adults involved now, I am now in a position where I can pass on many of these responsibilities.

Please tell me about your experiences.

Our cooking groups are 3-4 scouts, depending on the patrol dynamic and attendance. We have done this since before I have come into the troop. But as I said, we are down to 2 troop stoves. Our philosophy is that any scout can bring his own stove, but he must share it with his group. Otherwise, the troop tries to carry enough stoves for everyone.

Cost is our biggest driving factor, followed by stability. We are also considering weight and ability to use below 20F.

Any more ideas?

I am looking for a recomended stove for a patrol for backpacking. Our troop is growing and we are down to two stable Coleman Xpert stoves, but these are obsolete, but there are still outfitters with the 2-burner version.

We rarely camp in extremely cold weather, but we have been caught out where the weather dipped below forecast and isobutane stoves lost their ability to work efficiently, so we are considering dual fuel stoves, but we have no experience with these.

Our main two requirements are stability and low cost.

Shower me with your ideas!

I have recieved no records from the SM or from the Registrar. I communicated with the registrar via email. I was advised that the scout was not reregistered last February, and that there was no advancement ever filed. The scout's HB shows the rank of Second Class.

I do not doubt the scout or his HB. In fact, he camped with us earlier this month, and I have to say, his skills are excellent. IO have FC and Star scouts who are less capeable than he is. And he has a great attitude. In fact, at elections he was selected PL.

So, the question becomes this. If I record dates from his HB in Troopmaster, so that our Advancement Coordinator can upload it to Scoutnet, we need to have our committee sign off on his BOR on the actual advancement form (which we are still required to sign and submit to the council. CAN our committee sign off on BOR another troop conducted (and according to his HB approved? It also means we have NO record of any MB earned, though he did submit to us a copy of badges he earned at camp with his troop this past June (the copy from the camp to the troop, no Blue Cards).

Any guidance on how to best proceed? He is a good and capeable scout. I would hate to hold him back in any way.

Eagle90, can you comment more on the BA pads? I am looking at the Big Agnes Insulated Air Core Mummy Pad. This is a 2.5" pad and weights only 18 oz, which is more than double the thickness and 1/4 less weight than old my Therm-a-Rest Backpacker.

I am moving toward a lighter backpack arrangement. I was between 40 and 45 lbs total, and I am working to get that down to a base weight of 18-20 lbs (minus food/water), while retaining a particular degree of back comfort and warmth/insulation against the cold. (Floridians can freeze to death at room temperature, you know...)

Any info would be good.

Wow! And I thought I was the only one who actually read these books. I don't feel quite so lonely now.

I appreciate very much your detailed replies. I want to explain more in response to CalicoPenn and to shortidge. I have School Night for Scouting tonight (troop assisting Cub pack) and we are going 6 hrs away for a climing campout tomorrow afternoon, so I may not be able to reply completely until early next week.

Short reply (for CalicoPenn) is that our leadership has high hopes for Johnny. He is a great scout, regardless of whether or not his firebuilding skills are where I think they should be. I did not mean to "slam" him, or give that impression. We all believe he should be the next SPL, as he has a great vision and determination. Parents are over trained and were cub scout den leaders and ASMs in the last Troop. Because of our concerns when they joined, CoR and CC insisted they register as committee to try to keep them out of the scouts' hair. They have continually voiced that they feel they are underutilized (there and here), yet when we offered them specific positions in the troop, they declined. They have constantly undermined the scouts (PLs and SPLs) authority behind our back, and I have heard accounts of them slamming us to the WB course director and other scouters whom they know are close and personal friends of mine, but deny it to our face and try to turn it into "we are not doing things right." At summer camp mom told Johnny NOT to listen to SPL and do what she said, right in front of the troop, because he (SPL) was wrong. It was over a troop scavenger hunt turn in time (and the SPL was right). She was called out by ASM#1 who was in charge as I was at work 1/2 the week.

We want Johnny to be SPL, as he feel he has much to contribute to the troop, but we are working hard to keep the parents at arm's length. I will write more later...

Don't stop with the replies in the mean time.

Johnny came to our troop after mom and dad burned the bridges at his old troop. I have details but will not post them, except to say this, that they left over a moral issue regarding gambling within the troop. Though they made that decision based upon their moral obligtations, I feel it was an excuse for failed expectations on behalf of Johnny's parents. Mom and Dad are 100% trained. All Cub Scout training, Boy Scout leader training, IOLS, WB, and they even took a "family vacation" to PTC 2 years ago. They still don't get it.

While I was "warned" by the other troop (and other non-troop scouters) about Mr. and Mrs. Johnny, we were at a low point in our (adult) leadership, and I felt that their experience and training could be tempered and integrated. The CoR, CC and other troop committee leaders all had reservations, but were willing to back me in my support of these two. Read on....

Johnny went to the NJ. Parents showed up as well, both with NJ sightseeing and at the NJ itself. There was an incident, for which I have some details, but they are sketchy. Long story short, while touring DC before the NJ one parent of a different scout (not a contingent troop leader) tried to get the patrol to go one way (when the SM had said no) while Johnny did not want to disobey SM. Other parent had a meltdown in front of Mr. and Mrs. Johnny, and most SM ended being called from across town to fix it. Scouts in Johnny's patrol were not kind to him the rest of the trip. While at the NJ, his parents kept him from troop activities and on at least 2 occasions, Johnny got in trouble for being late. I later emailed the contingent SM asking how my 2 scouts had done. He went into none of these details, but he did say this: "...'Johnny' did well, but I think there was a bit too much parent structuring of his adventure. This delayed him really finding his fit into the troop. His parents are really nice and do care...but I think they needed to let 'Johnny' just go...." I couldn't have put it more kindly or accurately.

In the another thread, I mentioned that while Johnny was acting SPL for our August campout, they came out to watch. Johnny struggled to build a fire with wet wood (as did 2 of 3 patrols) for cooking; no stoves on the campout. Myself and ASM#1 tag teamed the 2 patrols and mentored them through the process of wet wood fires. It was slow. Remember that these were their cooking fires, and Mom and Dad were there to "observe." When they started handling the patrols Dutch ovens (after standing over the fires with umbrellas), I pulled dad aside and politely asked that he not interfere with the scouts' cooking. He proceeded to blast me about not teaching the scouts enough about cooking with fire, providing conversion charts from charcoal, and leaving the out in the rain to fail. ASM#1 stepped in and helped defuse the situation, but the best we could do was agree to disagree. In the end Johnny burned a little of the bottom of his bread/casserole while the top was not finished (BTW, the bottom burned because dad insisted it get put directly on the fire so as not to be finished too late). I worked him through removing the DO from the fire and baking the top, with coals. In the end, his cornbread/casserole turned out really good and there was no burned taste at all. No harm done. Hearing the father talk about it later, it was clear that anything short of perfection is a complete failure. Did I mention that Johnny is a Life scout and could not even identify the correct type of kindling and tender to start a fire?

At the PLC debrief a week later, Johnny expressed "his" opinion that requiring scouts to cook over an open fire was too much since we had spent 4.5 hours swimming at a nearby spring (swimming was the main activity of the campout). Next time, he suggested cooking over fire should only be planned when no other activities are scheduled.

Then there was the incident which started this thread.

I am reluctant to follow Twocubdad's advice, only because Mr. Johnny is now offshore and will likely not be back for 2 months or more. Sending said letter may put Mrs. Johnny in an awkward position. Likewise, Mrs. Johnny, every bit as "involved" as Mr., has recently been polite enough to keep her comments to herself. I don't know. They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks....

RANBOW,

For as long as I know, MBCs have had to be registered. Though there is no registration cost, there is suposed to be a background check done for anyone registering as a MBC. National policy requires (or so I have been told by our resistrar and SE) that all MBCs re-register each year. Our council has spent the past 2 year trying to clean up our records, wiping the MBC list clear each June, and requiring new applications. With the advent of stricter policies regarding Youth Protection Training, our current list is 1/4 what it was last year. But that is for another thread.

Thanks for the replies. Now that we have established a baseline, let me offer the rest of the story (it really does not change everything, but it is only fair to let you know from where I am coming on this...).

1) Johnny scout is assigned a MBC for cooking. The MBC is the preceeding SM, but he has had work and family issues has not been available. When the Johnny said Mr. X-SM hasn't been available, I returned the next week with a new MBC for Cooking and a printed Blue Card.

2) Johnny approached me asking to work on the Carpentry (centennial) badge, as it was the only centennial badge not offered at camp, and he wanted to get all 4. I advised him that (which was true at the time) I was the only MBC registered for this badge, and that I was looking forward to working with him on it. Six weeks later he approaches me and asks to instead work with Mr. Smith on this badge. I asked him why and he said because Mr. Smith was holding a class on this the upcoming Friday (3 days away). Johnny had made no attempt to contact me regarding this badge yet, but knowing that I was not available before that time, I did not want him to feel I was holding him up on any badge, so I verified Mr. Smith was registered (he had recently signed up) so I allowed him to change.

3) Johnny comes to me last night and asks for a Blue Card for the Small Boat Sailing MB. I say sure, and begin to tell him about a great counselor our troop has, a former member of the troop who now is on a professional race team. He is a great guy, easy going, and is also a Cub Scout leader. Johnny says he would really like to take the badge with his father. I remind Johnny that one of my most important tasks is to assign MBCs and I would really like him to work with Mr. Jones, as I feel the experience would be a positive one for him.

Thirty minutes later, as I am driving home I get a phone call from my wife, telling me that Johnny's dad has just called her and reamed her out about why Johnny couldn't have HIM as a counselor. I pulled over into a parking lot to call Johnny's dad, who reaches me just before I hit "send." Mr. Johnny begins to lamblast me about who is more qualified than him to teach his son this badge. I explain that is is not about being more or less qualified, but that it is my decision and I feel Johnny would benefit from the experience of working with Mr. Jones. Mr. Johnny goes on to chew me out about how "devistated" his son is that he can't work with his father on this badge...and the conversation continues this way going round and round for about 10 minutes. He keeps saying the same things over and over, and I finally reply that if his son is so "devistated" over a MBC, he has bigger concerns than how many MBs his son is earning. He continues by ranting about how my assigning someone else as a MBC is undermining his experience with his son. I remind him that he can do all the work with Johnny on the MB, teaching him all the appropriate skills and that after that if he were to meet with his assigned counselor, Mr. Jones would be very impressed indeed as he signed off all the requirements after only a short time on the water. He would have none of it, and I would not badk down. After about 20 minutes, I reminded him that I had to be at work early the next morning and that the conversation was finished. I feel I should add that Mr. Johnny was calling from the dock 4 states away about to go offshore to work.

Does that change your thoughts on this at all?

Edit: and yes, this is the same parent I mentioned here--

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=284438&p=2

(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

How would you respond to a scout who asks to change MB Counselors because the MBC assigned is not available?

How would you respond to a scout who asks to change MB Counselors because the he knows one who is available when he wants (but the scout has never contacted the assigned counselor)?

How would you respond to a scout asks to change counselors the moment you assign him one when he would prefer to work with his father as a counselor?

All three of these things have occurred over the last few months with one scout, and I would like to hear how you would have handled these situations.

manderle, thanks for the link to Just Jeff's page. Believe it or not, I was trying to find that just 15 minutes ago.

Through a link someone else posted in another thread yesterday, I came across this and thought it would make a good camp stove for individuals. We may have to try this on our next backwoods adventure instead of backpack stoves.

http://www.imrisk.com/woodgas/coffeestove.htm

Try this site. The manufacturer is clearly involved in scouting, and it seems like an interesting product.

http://hennessyhammock.com/

DWS, I joined Boy Scouts immediately after receiving my AOL on June 22, 1976, so I missed the Bicentennial Encampment. But I do remember seeing the BE patches on all the older scout's uniforms. The campout was probably held at Bronson Field, a WWII era training facility. We had several camporees there when I was a scout. Our next encampment was in the spring of 1979, and was held at a field (not a runway type field) on Eglin AFB, less than 10 miles from Spanish Trail.

In recent years, beginning in the late 90s there were no encampments in the council (or so everyone said). The OA put on an encampment in the fall of 2008 at Euchee, and the Council sponsored Scout Jam, a Jamboree style encampment at the Ft. Walton Beach Fairgrounds this past Spring. Both were well organized and well run events.

I remember Chappie James, and I recall I had an occasion to meet him once, as a scout at a scouting event, but I cannot for the life of me remember when or where. Prehaps it was at the Bicentennial Encampment as a Webelos. For the benefit of the rest of the gang, as Chappie is probably best known as a local hero, "Chappie" James was the first African American Air Force officer to achieve the rank of (four star) General.

Stosh, this is something about which I have given considerable thought to lately, mainly because of 2 recent triggers.

First, two weekends ago, we had a campout where scouts were told they had to cook over an open fire. No scout knew what "open fire" meant, and either assumed that meant the flame of a stove (?) or charcoal. The idea of making a wood fire and cooking over it was so foreign to these scouts that it virtually sent them into panic mode.

Second, as I was reviewing the Second Class requirements (2010 rev), I noticed this: "3.g. On one campout, plan and cook one hot breakfast or lunch, selecting foods...." It used to read this: "On one campout, plan and cook over an open fire one hot breakfast or lunch for yourself, selecting...." That is a big change.

When I was a scout (OK, everyone brace yourselves...), there was no patrol gear. Every scout had his own mess kit. The patrol agreed on a menu and bought the food, but most of the time each member cooked his own food over an open fire. Sometimes we would scrape up a bigger pot for spagetti or beef stew (I think those were the only 2 things we knew how to make) but just as often, each member would cook for themselves. I consider myself a reasonable cook (better than my wife and she will agree), but I can tell you that though I learned much from my mother, I really refined my cooking skills while camping with the troop, over an open fire, with my mess kit.

I have a vague recollection that sometimes, the adults used a Coleman white gas stove, but that was not very often.

On a side note, my mess kit was an official Boy Scout mess kit. It had been my older sister's which she had used in Girl Scouts and had down to me. It had her initials, LP, on the bottom in pink paint. I scraped, sanded and did everything I could but that pink paint (nail polish?) never would come off. I finally gave in and with my Testors model paint enamels (black) turned it into a DP. When my son joined Boy Scouts, I dug up the old kit and gave it to him. And there on the bottom of the frying pan was a pink LP with just a hint of black paint around the edges of the letters. He has taken it upon himself to convert the L into an I. I wish him luck.

As I said before, we have one 10# tank for each patrol with currently 2 extras (we usually bring 1 extra along on each campout). We have few campsites in our area where we can actually camp 300' apart, but keeping the patrol as far apart as possible is what we strive for every time. And we have never had two patrols share a propane tank.

All propane in our area is sold by the pound. I have never heard of it being sold any othere way(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Additionally on the Sea Scout end there are Regattas and Raft-ups.

Around here, there is a council sponsored have a Tiger only family camping weekend called Tiger Growl

We use the 10# propane tanks, one per patrol. We have several tanks and extras. We have found that one tank will last just over a year. That is for cooking and lantern. For the past 3 years, one mom was the manager of a tire store which sold propane (4 blocks from the scout hut) and we received all our propane for free. That scout has left the troop, but we have since found a return which only charges $15. At that cost, we accommodate 40 or more nights of camping, stove and lantern, which works out to just over 35/night per patrol. That is pretty reasonable. Currently we have 3 patrols (plus the adults is 4) and we have 6 bottles.

We definatley use POR contracts, which we have tailored for our troop and program. We have been using them for 2 years to good effect. One NJ contingent SM borrowed them and put appropriate criteria for a contingent troop and used them.

We make a formal deal out of it, but the real purpose is not merely as a "binding contract" as it is a way to communicating to the scout that this IS what is expected, and that before elections he should have a good understanding of this so he knows what he is "getting into."

It does not specify percentages of attendance or the like, but it does give a clear path to follow if he cannot attend a meeting. It does indicate things like "set the example by wearing the uniform" and such.

Contracts are signed by the scout holding the office, and to whoever he reports. So the SPL contract is signed by the SPL and SM; the PL contracts by the PL and the SPL; the APL by the APL and PL and so on. As we now have no ASPL all the positions like Scribe, CA and Historian report to the SPL, where in the standard troop plan they would report to the ASPL. We can always change our contract if we choose as we grow.

As I said, it has worked well for us thus far.

I believe it was probably a Grumman or AlumiCraft, and I would bet that the beam (at the widest point) was 35-38", which is pretty standard for boat of this lenght (any similar lengthed vessel with a 24" beam would be extremely unstable and I cannot imagine this boat as a safe rental).

Regardless, one of our committee members has a Grumman, probably a 20 year old canoe, with not a scratch or dent and still shiney. This is due to good care. Another of our committee memebers has a kevlar canoe, which is very strong and weighs 40-50% less than the Grumman. I have another friend with an Old Town (modern plastic) canoe which is also fine. My canoe is a 16' 1974 Mohawk fiberglass canoe; my neighbor has an identical one (different color). Mine is currently unservicable as I am in the middle of a very rustic restoration (replacing aluminum gunwales with ash/walnut, Peruvian alder decks-bow and stern, ash deck-inside, ash/caned seats, ash minor fiberglass repairs and repainting-inside and out).

Consider these materials carefully. Aluminum is mostly indestructible, but dents and scratches easily. It can be welded if needed, but will usually take years before you get to this stage. They are generally loud when bumped and used. The newer plastic polymers are virtually indestructible, dents pop out, they are scratch resistant, but if holed are essentially disposable, as permanent repairs cannot be effected. Kevlar is not cheap, but is extremely strong and light. BrentAllen can tell you about repairs in the field which can be realistically accomplished. Fiberglass is heavier though less expensive than kevlar, and can also be field repaired. General use for these canoes should not require any field repair work, only whitewate and other more extreme experiences.

After I finish doing the restoration on my Mohawk, I intend to begin work on a stripper (no, not some sleezy nightclub), a canoe build out of wooden strips. Even with minimal woodworking experience, these are possible to be built by relative novice. Cost for these is comperable to a nice canoe (less than kevlar), but if done right, finished value is double to triple the cost of an new kevlar.

I agree with packsaddle, try out several before you jump into one. Remember too that transportation can sometimes be an issue. If you canoe lakes you can return to your starting point. If you canoe rivers, someone has to meet you at the other end and probably ferry around.

Good luck.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Eagle92, your divide by 2 rule is not unreasonable. But for us, the 2-man vestibule tents are excellent for 2 scouts. These tents have 2 vestibules and of course, and entrance on each side of the tent (extra zipper does add to the weight). This does 2 effective things. One, each scout has his own enterance, so they do not need to climb over each other to get in or out. Also, with the vestibule on each side, each scout's gear is separated from the other (and neither has easy access to one other's stuff).

I am not trying to impose this upon all troops. It has been surprisingly effective for us. But in my earlier post, I said to weigh every option to determine what is best for you. This is an example of what I meant.

Austinole,

I am assuming that since you are talking about GA state parks and you are from the land of Garnet and Gold, that you may be considering Seminole State Park. My family camped there and I must say that it is a nice place . The Pioneer area is not too far from the family camping area restrooms, and as rdclements suggests, this may be a good option. I only quickly walked through the Pioneer area and did not specifically check out the pit toilets, but I do remember that I liked the area for troop camping (I was still a Cub leader at the time). I have been wanting to take the troop there for some time....

Separately, there are some great activities there. There is a roped off swimming area with a nice beach (brush up on your Safe Swim Defense), fishing pier, a 2.2 mile Gopher tortise trail, mini-golf and even an evening hay ride followed by an ice cream social (check the ranger schedule). Also, 30ish miles north is Kolomoki (Indian Mounds) State Park, with the largest mounds east of the Mississippi and a really interesting museum. It is worth the drive from Seminole.

Hope I got that right and it helps.

I don't remember teaching the 3 Ps, but I do recall the health and safety portion teaches C-A-M-P-I-N-G

-Campsite Cover-ups

-Adults

-Marshmallows/Fire Safety

-Potable Water

-Indoor Plumbing

-No Peeking

-Good Stuff

My understanding, based on what I read in the BALOO syllabus AND conversations I have had on this matter with our council Program Director, are that any campsites used by Cub Scouts are suposed to be on an APPROVED, COUNCIL MAINTAINED list, and as they are FAMILY oriented activities, should have flush toilets. Reality is that many councils (including ours) have no official list, so the rule is difficult to enforce. If the council approves your tour permit, there should be no issues. But check with your council for further clarification.

On a more practical note, flush/outhouse facilities should generally be fine. I be more inclined to draw the line with NO toilets/dig your own pit. On the same line, if you have ladies attending, you should be sensitive to their needs and expectations. We are fortunate to have 3 different group camping areas in our district with flush toilets where cub scout packs often camp. These locations have never been questioned by our council office.