Buffalo Skipper

Thank you Jeffrey H for sharing what your troop does. I do like that. And thank you everyone else for agreeing with Jeffrey. Once in a while, consensus is nice.

How do your troops handle a scout who missed his presentations at the Court of Honor? We do all badge presentations right away, but reserve the CoH for the cards (Rank and MB) and recognition in front of family. If you have a scout who missed the CoH, should we hold off on presenting cards until the next CoH; or should we present cards at the next troop meeting and recognize the scout at the next CoH, or just present the cards at the next troop meeting and drop the CoH recognition? Or prehaps something else?

Just wanted to hear your thougths.

CA_Scouter: I have a scout in my unit who is a direct descendant of Davy Crockett...

Yes, but does he receive royalties from the Camp (Davy Crocket) or do they at least offer him a discount when attending camp there?

Edited: I hope he is working on or has earned his Geneology MB...(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I had 2 scouts go to the NJ: both 13, one First Class (having previously completed 4 MBs) and the other Life (having nearly 40 MBs). I advised both before they left: Keep in mind the cost of the Jamboree...do you want to spend that money earning a few MBs (which you may be able to earn at home) or would you prefer to do activities which were specifically related to the NJ and could not be done at home. I also advised them that there would be some uniquely qualified counselors there and that they should not pass by a MB opportunity which may prove to be a unique experience.

They camp back with 2 MBs and 2 partials, and 3 MBs respectively.

The FC scout, who had been losing interest in Scouts came back fired up and ready to continue working on MBs and begin advancing. It was a great sight to see. The Life scout earned badges he would have had limited opportunity to complete at home, and was very excited about the ones he earned.

Separately, I was both disappointed and impressed by the administrative side of the Jamboree MB process. These scouts were required to turn in their sheets to their contingent SM, leaving nothing for the scouts to present to the troop. I emailed their CSM, but have not heard back in almost a week. I did go through the council PD (who is a personal friend) and he was able to send me the scans of their 7 badges (completions and partials). Accordingly, we are now able to print the advancement reports required to purchase and present the badges to these scouts. I did not see where the scans were obtained, I got the impression that these were scanned at the Jamboree and that there was some index system with which the PD looked them up and emailed them to me, but I really do not know.

In the end, it was not a problem, but if these are entered directly into Scoutnet (as I was told they were to be), then we cannot print them on our troop Scoutnet report because we were not the ones who made the update. I can "fake" the report on Troopmaster, but that is really not the way I want to keep troop records of advancement.

While at summer camp, 2009 there was on a large camp staff 2 excellent buglers. They each took separate parts in flags, sometimes playing off each other, other times playing in harmony. It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard at camp.

We may now have a second bugler in the troop. I have a second scout who came across the sheet music for the different calls and decided to practice. While he plays the trumpet, he practices with only his mouthpiece. Interestingly, he and the actual troop bugler sat next to each other in band last year, and the only other trumpet in their class was a friend's son who is in another troop.

Our Council/district has worked to improve the accuracy of the "district MBC list" with some success. The recent push to require MBCs to have completed YPT to register has created some chaos. Coincidentally, June is when our council requires that all MBCs resubmit applications (annually), and they will not accept a MBC application without an accompanying hard copy of the up-to-date YPT training card. MBCs are turned away without this card in had, and applications are not accepted, period.

The district list is thin, at best. We only have counselors who teach 88 MBs (this includes none of the Centennial MBs). Of those, 12 are troop MBCs from our troop, more than half of which I have recruited so our scouts can have a MBC to take a badge they want. Heck, our district only has one (1) swimming MBC available to all scouts in the district (though a couple of troops have their own). That is in a district with roughly 45 Boy Scout troops.

We have had this discussion before, but it the topics are inseparable, in my opinion, but as SM, I feel it is my responsibility to see that the scouts have a good MB experience. I utilize troop MBCs or District MBCs in concert to limit a scout having the same counselor for multiple badges, but I am very choosy about to whom I send a scout from the district list. Again, my goal is to find a reasonable balance and to do my best to see that every scout has the best possible experience with as many qualified counselors as possible.

Our scouts are excited after a very good summer of camping, and are already looking toward next year. One of our leaders recalls going to Camp Davy Crocket in the Sequoyah Council (NE of Knoxville).

Though I have found a few references to this camp, the website is "gone" and I cannot even find the council page. Has his camp gone away and/or has the council folded into another?

Any info would be welcome.

The only thing which could possibly be tested are reqs 4, 5, 6 & 8.

So what, if they fail to addequately describe the scout badge, they have to start over beginning with finding a troop and a filling out a new application? Seahorse puckey!

AoL requirement 6 states:

After you have completed all five of the above requirements, and after a talk with your Webelos den leader, arrange to visit, with your parent or guardian, a meeting of a Boy Scout troop you think you might like to join. Have a conference with the Scoutmaster.

The last statement, "Have a conference with the Scoutmaster," is typically (though does not have to be) done with the SM of the troop with which they want to join. Commonly, this is just a few weeks before crossover. When I have this conference, I do things like greet the scout with the scout handshake, review and discuss the scout oath and law and discuss the scout (first class) badge. If they have just attended a meeting, I have seen them demonstrate the scout salute while reciting the pledge, as well as the scout sign while the troop does the scout oath and law.

I do follow this with a SMC once they join the troop, but having covered most of the points, I do not repeat requirements unless I see they were having trouble the month before. This process is quick and painless, and the scout is often presented his scout patch by the end of the first or second meeting once he officially joins the troop.

But pastas and grains are "shelf-stable," especially if they are infested with certain bugs....

Remember, weevils wobble but they don't fall down.

Our troop sent two 13 year olds to the Jamboree; one First Class, one Life, each in a different Contingent troop. They were among the youngest in our 3 contingent troops (though I know of at least one who was 12). I am very intersted to hear how each preformed, from the contingent SM and ASMs, with whom I am acquainted.

I attended the '81 NJ and I appreciate the necessity for skills and patrol unity, as I was a PL. I am fairly confident in our Life, but have reservations about our FC. If his experience was not good, I would not be surprised if he droped out of the troop, which would be unfortunate.

They return Saturday.

That is really strange. Just earlier today I was talking to a scout who wanted to earn the badge before it vanished. That meant a change of Bugler for him to earn it. The current bugler has not earned the badge either, but has held the position for 3 months and thus has met that requirement.

Just today. Spooky.

Our troop has a debit card, which is handled by our treasurer, who has held that position for 10 years. Our troop has a unique situation in that our treasurer is retired and attends every meeting and probably 10 campouts a year, even though his son eagled/aged out 3 years ago.

If someone else needs to "order" something or book a reservation online, we are good about using the troop card for that purpose. Having the debit card and good leadership certainly makes things easier for us.

I guess I have to disagree with many of you. To me, as successful troop is one in which there is a great balance and respect for the 8 Methods of Scouting. If you have a program in which all 8 methods are used, then you have a successful troop.

Any "adult led" troop is failing Adult Association, Leadership Development, and may well be missing the important points of Personal Growth and Patrols. Any troop which doesn't camp at least 10 or so times a year or more is failing at Outdoors. Uniforming to me is a "yes" or "no" issue; either you follow the uniforming standard or you don't. Advancement will vary from scout to scout as it is a personal achievement; MB mills decide for the scout what their achievements should be (bad)--this should be a matter of inspiring scouts to achieve. I would say that Ideals is something which cannot be overlooked. But to me, the most important aspsect of the 8 Methods is Patrols. Many different youth/civic groups have Leadership development or uniforms or values or a system of ranks and achievement and some even focus on the outdoors; but it is "Patrols" which is unique to scouting and no other organization. Without it, you are simply not a boy scout troop.

My 2.

Jethro,

Our troop is in the process of working out exactly those things you brought up. I really like the "Reports" options in TM, and as SM, I use it regularly to view things like "Target First Class" and "Individual Progress."

When a new scouts joins, we encourage them through the process of the Tenderfoot rank, but give only a few occasional reminders beyond that. By First Class, we expect a scout to be self motivated to pursue his own rank advancement. I work throught the PLC and PLs to encourage rank advancement. For us, it is (at least in part) the PLs responsiblity to promote the advancement of scouts within his patrol. Sounds like what you are doing, so far.

So the question is: "How do you get it in TM?" Once a month or so, we remind the scouts to "see" the Advancement Coordinator to record their advancment in TM. Generally after a few months in the troop, the scouts begin to take the initiative to see the AdvC on their own. So far, this has worked out fairly well for us.

I certainly use TM to keep up with who has and has not advanced, though I have a pretty good idea where everyone stands. TM just gives me the specifics of dates and other info which I may use, especially if we have a non-advancing scout with whom I may arrange a Scoutmaster's Conference.

Kudo's to you for seeing that this is getting done. The real trick is to oversee the record keeping without interfering with a scout's progress or motivation.

Well, so far, it has been a successful summer of camps (and camping). June 27-July 3 we went to our local camp with 18 scouts (14 first-time summer campers). I only attended the beginning and end of the week, but we had great leadership in place. The troop came out smelling like a...well, they really didn't smell that good, but they did bond in a tremendous way. They took 1st place in the Water Carnival, and missed the Top Troop by 4 pts. It was a terriffic experience for all who attended!

Then on July 23, a contingent of 8 scouts headed up to the Great Smoky Mountain National Park where we camped for 2 nights. They organized themselves into 2 groups: the younger group did 2 hikes totalling 9 miles, while the older group hiked up Mt Cammerer (+2700') and out the AT to the other side (-3100') for a total of 12 miles. Then the two groups met in the Cataloochee Valley where we spent the late afternoon viewing elk from the local herd.

Sunday we drove to Camp Daniel Boone, where we had another teriffic week. This was the best camp our scouts have attended in a decade! The camp sits in a valley at 3400' elevation. There is a stream running right through the middle of camp, and you are surrounded by several 6000+' peaks. The staff was great and the "honed" scouts took home 3 major troop awards, more than any other troop in attendance.

Pride is high, moral is up and we are already planning a Winter camp, and as discussed in another thread, our own summer camp next year.

I agree with perdidochas that you should have your replacement in your back pocket by now. Whether you do or not, this is a great time (9 months out) to begin preparing your committee for the change. As for your scouts, I would keep that under wraps for the moment. They will either become nervous about your change or they will be anxiously awaiting it. Either way even if you don't intend it to, the anticipation of the change may have a negative affect on your scouts. But then again, you know your scouts best.

ctbailey, on the ships-store.com site, select the "Patches and Recognition" link. Go just almost to the bottom (just above the name tags) and you will see "Collar Marks (pins) - for wear on adult khaki uniform."

These are the Sea Scout adult position pins. One star represents a unit level scouter (Skipper also has a bar, Mates only a star), two stars is for Council level, and three for regional.

I do not like the Dickies. I started with a pair of them a few years ago, but the color has a hint of green, which really turns me off. I went with the official USN CBDs (polyester) which are much more "formal." I have not had an occasion to wear my whites since my last Seabadge, almost 2 years ago.

While many troops are inactive, during the NJ, tomorrow Troop 3 heads out with a small contingent (8 scouts aged 10-15) to Camp Daniel Boone. Due to NJ activities, the camp is only a little over half full, the lowest booking week I have observed in a couple of years.

We are making a brief stop in the Smoky Mountains National Park (Cosby). Saturday the scouts have planned (via 2 groups) a trip across Mt Cammerer (11.0 miles, 2600' up, 2900' down) or collections of smaller dayhikes in Cataloochee. Both groups with meet in Cataloochee Valley before sunset, hoping to spy some elk and other wildlife.

This is the first "big" excursion we have inspired the scouts to do this this year, and we hope they will take this experience on to the younger scouts to continue planning patrol oriented, semi-high adventure.

I had at one time hear that same rumor about the smaller device replaceing the larger. That was 3 years ago and both are still available through BSA supply. I later heard (from a council Venture leader who attended PH course #2 and staffed PH #3) that generally the smaller device came out for women. Her remarks were that with the smaller pocket on the women's blouse the smaller device was better proportioned. Also the larger device does not wear well in this position with a woman's figure.

I was given the smaller device 3 years ago when I went through my course and was told that the larger device had been discontinued. I latter discovered that the smaller devices were ordered because they were $.85 cheaper. I prefer the larger device and believe it is much smarter than the smaller. I have both but since purchasing the larger I have only worn the larger PH, and only on more formal occasions.

Not owning a centennial uniform shirt I have not had the problem of how wear it. On the other hand, it should not be too much of a stretch to sew a button on the back side of the flap as on the right pocket flap.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Be well and play hard! I will miss your perspective and your positive attitude. Good luck on your future endeavors. Who knows, maybe there is a scout group where you are going....

Tatanka!

Barry, thank you for the kind words. I am honored and touched that you would want to call me a "dreamer." It is a title which is some people view as less than complimentary. I have been extremely fortunate in my life to have experienced some unusual and memorable adventures. I would like to see that some of the scouts in our troop have similar opportunities, that they may one day be able to pass on to their children and others, perhaps even future scouts.

But I am neither trying to relive my own childhood nor impose my youthful experiences upon the members of my troop. My real goal is to inspire them seek their own adventures and to mentor them through the process of reaching beyond their little boxes. In my opinion, society today (to include Scouting) is comfortable living in its own very compact comfort zone. Though this may be another motivation to put on this kind of camp, it is a discussion for another threadnot this one.

The issue of merit badges is a very important one, and though I dont want to take this in a radically different direction, I do want to make it relevant to this topic. Last year, we went to Camp Woodruff. I do not want to claim Woodruff is a MB mill, but it is a Cadillac of camps. Everything is new and shiny; the counselors are fabulous, and realistically, every scout who attended truly EARNED the merit badges they earned. In spite of some logistical issues, we all had a great time. But it was all too neatly boxed up and it was not the experience we were seeking (or at least, not the one I was hoping the scouts would have). Then this past December, we attended out councils inaugural Winter Camp, where a very small group of scouts had a great time and earned a few more badges. We went back to our councils camp 2 weeks ago, where we had terrific bonding experience and quite a lot of fun. The troop matured, like we have not seen in several years. In another week, we are off to Daniel Boone (with half the number of scouts we took last months camp). That is averaging 3 organized camps (merit badge camp mills, if you subscribe to that philosophy, which I am on the fence about) per year. I really want the scouts to experience something different. And I dont mean going to a different summer camp. I mean a truly different type of experience.

Sure, working on MBs like Camping, Cooking and even Nature or Forestry would be fun, but do we really need to formalize it into classes? Why cant we break into different groups (patrols?) and pursue different adventures each day? Maybe do a hike, maybe go to a gem mine, maybe go to a remote old growth virgin forest. It would be neat to get my woodcarving friend to show up and maybe do a class and tell some stories. Maybe we could even have some smaller groups break off and do an overnight survival excursion or short backpack trek on the AT.

Hum. You all are making me think too much.

Barry asked about my motivation, as did my closest scouting friend and mentor (who happens to work down the hall from me), so I feel it is important to answer. There are several reasons I am supporting this, some of which are more important and others are really quite trivial.

For me, the idea of doing a troop doing its own adventure camp program (somewhere in the mountains) entered my mind when my family first camped at this location 3 summers ago, and I saw the group area. It was just so immediately obvious how perfect a location this was to pull this off. I kept the idea to myself, but I was already thinking of ways in which this could be introduced to the troop. At the time, I was on the committee, and only just beginning to be active with outings, but I knew I would be SM in a year or two. The next summer, I went with the troop to Skymont, on the Cumberland Plateau. Not exactly the mountains, but close enough. Our troop has traditionally gone to the Appalachians for summer camp for a decade, mainly for some of the leaders to avoid the oft oppressive heat of the Gulf Coast. Last year we went to Woodruff.

Since it took all day to get up to this area from home, I thought we should arrange to leave a few days early with the troop and do some activities in the mountains. We were already going to be there, why not take advantage of it. That is where this year comes in. The PLC decided in October to go to our local camp (much to the disgust of our older leaders) AND also to a camp in the mountains (Daniel Boone). Last year we did a summertime 60 mile canoe trip, and I knew the PLC would not be organizing something like that this year, so I suggested up an extra day early to camp and actually do something. We are staying in the Smoky Mountain NP, and the participating scouts divided themselves into 2 different ability groups and with our guidance (they had never done this before) put together a day and a half of short treks before summer camp, which is only an hour away from where we will be in the Smokies. It was all met with considerable resistance, but as soon as we actually got the scouts involved with the planning, everyones attitude changed and ALL (including our adults) are fired up about the trip.

Up until this point, I had not mentioned to anyone about my hair brained idea of doing our own camp. But my closest ASM, an extremely dynamic scout leader, suggested that he would like to see us do something like our own camp, and that is when he and I started discussing it (last week). Only over the weekend did I start organizing these ideas into actual program material.

But again, I have evaded the question of what is my motivation. It is not a solution to issues I have with council camp programs (though there are things about council camps I do not like). It would be lower cost than a high end camp. It would provide an opportunity for other adults (and perhaps the appropriate dad/mom/uncle) to involve themselves in program. It would get the patrol mostly working on cooking, rather than dining hall style service. It would reinforce scouts skills of camping, which is a plus. Based upon my family experiences it would simply be fun for the scouts! Since we dont have enough older scouts to do a high adventure trek (Philmont, Northern Tier, etc), it would be a less expensive way to have a more adventurous experience for all our scouts. None of these reasons alone are sufficient motivation to do a camp like this, but when you put everything together, it just makes sense.

Also the bonus (which I would certainly hope for) is the bonding and camaraderie which might result from this type of experience. BP said that advancement is like a suntan, it is something which naturally occurs when being in the out of doors. I think the analogy would apply to the growth experience of this type of adventure as well: the camaraderie is not the goal, but it will happen naturally in this environment.

Edited: packsaddle, I agree. To me, Camping, Cooking, Hiking, Backpacking and the like are MBs that happen naturally. I earned most as a scout while on outings in the mountains, not at summer campsometimes even away from my troop. These need to be experienced to be earned. Yes, I actively sought to complete the requirements for these badges, but I did take advantage of the opportunities presented to me. Rather than force the badges on these lads, I would like to see them have the opportunity to pursue them and complete the requirements on their own.

(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

2nd edit: I appreciate the concern regarding food. I too, have had more than one thought about this. Likewise, I am confident that we would have a few extra adults who could go into town on 1 or 2 occasions to purchase supplies. Being that this by an improved campground (no electricity, and generators allowed only on the loops away from the group area), there is a small camp store where we could purchase ice. The nearest town (Franklin NC, is about 20 miles away and is plenty large enough to serve any of our needs.

When I was there 3 years ago, I became friends there with the most gifted woodcarver I have ever met, who interestingly, was also a master storyteller. I have kept in touch with him and I bet he might come out to work with the scouts for a day (he carved the Buffalo on my walking stick).(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Beavah,

I did have that thought, and thanks for noticing and bringing it up. To me, advancement (including MBs) is an individual activity, not one to be pursued on a unit level (either troop or patrol). If each patrol were to choose one "activity group" and follow through with it, that might really be cool. I just don' think that is a very practical approach. As an example, in our efforts to develop patrol centric activites, each of our three PLs (on their own without any prompting or suggesting on my part) have wanted to do a MB as a patrol. Though I am certainly for this, it has not happened because the patrol members cannot agree on one to all take.

On the other hand, does anyone think that having them choose activites/MBs by patrol is a good idea? (and I am not suggesting it is not...)

For the sake of our discussion, I did not mention that this hypothetical location would include no aquatic activities, other than possibly a guided rafting trip. Our potential "base camp" has a river running behind it, but it is near the source and is shallow enough to wade all the way across without getting one's knees wet. Fishing, however, is a real option. Waterfront activities open up a whole nother can of worms which, though we may be able to handle (supervision/experience wise) is simply not in the facilities where we are currently considering.

Thanks for the quick replies. Let me provide a little more background to this.

First of all, as I have said many times, we have a young trooptoo young to organize a trek to a high adventure camp. So this is meant to be a low cost alternative with plenty of bang for the buck, as Stosh suggested. I have run this by (hypothetically) a couple of adults and selected scouts, all of whom seem to really like the concept. Before I talk about some of the ideas, let me insist that this is meant as a hypothetical setup, and that much would be done through the PLC and the scouts to actually determine the kinds of program offered.

Here are some of our ideas. Each scout chooses an activity group: Nature, Forestry, Scoutcraft, Hiking or Backpacking (or whatever). Each group has a focus list of merit badges and optional badges (there may be some crossover of interests). And each group has a core of adults who work with the scouts in these areas (being so young, we do not have scouts with the skill level to deliver this programin a couple of years, that will change). All scouts could work toward cooking and camping MBs. Obviously, the hiking group (if they organize 6 hikes of 70 miles) would spend much of the time out day hiking, and the backpacking group would be out on a 5 day trek; the Scoutcraft group would do something like Pioneering, Orienteering and/or Wilderness Survival, while the Nature and Forestry groups might concentrate on these types of badges.

All the groups could be able to go out on field trips and other excursions. But in the morning and evening, all the groups (except the backpacking trek) would be back in camp for cooking and the overnight. Because the groups would be smaller (probably less than 8 scouts per group), they would still be scout led. Remember, most of the scouts residing in the base camp would probably be 1st or 2nd year campers. The few we have with more experience would likely be off on the backpacking trek. The adults would simply act as coordinators for certain activitiessomewhere between committee members (i.e. troop support), camp staff and even part consultant, like in the venture program.

The area we are considering is unique in that it is National Forest land only 2 miles from a section of the AT with a great concentration of hiking trails, and a forestry laboratory, and considerable other amenities. It is a group area (remote but walking distance from showers) located at an improved public campground in the National Forest. An alternate location would be a mile away at a 100% primitive site which straddles an unimproved forest road on the side of a mountain.

Where this all gets fuzzy to me is where we do Merit Badges. I have worked hard to see that MBs are NOT a troop activity, but an individual experience. As such, I am uncomfortable with the idea of going out on a troop campout and spending the week doing MB work. I would prefer that scouts have the opportunity to work with troop counselors in advance and that some of the basic stuff (camping and cooking MBs) just happen, with minimal class time. The nature/outdoors badges would perhaps be somewhat more formally classed up, but with added field trips and day hikes, I believe we could keep the experience more subtle than overt. Everyone would have the chance to work on many different badges, though not all would be completed in full on this outing. For example, the first year campers would not be able to meet the 20 day camping requirement, not would anyone be able to sign off on the cooking meals at home, so it would take, as I said, outside work to complete some of these. We are blessed with a plethora of adults which we could utilize in this capacity who would have the skills necessary to serve as MBCs for the badges listed, and I think most would want to come along with us.

Again, we need more than just a scout buy-in for this. We would need scout planning and contribution. We want to make this their program. Early estimates of the cost would run under $150, which is half of a high end camp and less than a low-end council camp. This would include camping fees, fuel, food and a 30% buffer for incidental costs. This to me is quite reasonable for a 500 mile drive and 8 nights of camping.

Guy,

Wow! Sounds like you really had a great camp experience. As we have discussed before, that is where I really want to see our troop as well. We are still green enough that the week ling patrol cooking expereince may be beyond them, but then again young is when you want to start them that way so that they don't develop any bad habits.

Too bad we are so far south or I would have suggested that we go to that camp next year. Instead we are talking about setting up our own camp with patrol cooking and patrol and scout decided activities. See the thread-- http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=281071

We are considering several regional camps already for next year. Smaller but capeable camps which are close and less expensive. We will have to give some serious consideration to offered activities which are more patrol centric. Thanks for sharing you camp expereince. I would like to hear more about the camp, and how it went for the patrols. What did the scouts' feedback about this camp?