Buffalo Skipper

I have slept in a hammock more than 40 nights in the past year. Since moving up, I have not had to sleep on the ground since. At summer camp, I set up my hammock a few yards behind the rest of the tents. It rained over 4" during the week, mostly in 3 heavy spurts; the only dry spot in camp was my hammock under my tarp. Even my down bag was perfectly dry! I have slept in my hammock from 85 during an afternoon nap, all the way down to 21 during a winter backpacking trek with plenty of comfort.

I can set up my hammock in less time than two scouts can set up a simple tent. I cannot describe the level of comfort afforded me in the hammock. I would rather sleep in the hammock than in my own bed, and my wife and I have even considered replacing our bed with one or two hammocks.

perdidochas has a good description of the less expensive way to hammock. But for me, I have a mosquito hammock (integrated bug net) a lightweight silnylon tarp and an underquilt. And I have also gone to a topquilt, a lighter alternative to a sleeping bag. My winter weight backpacking setup has my entire sleep system (hammock, tarp and top and underquilts) weights only 5 lbs 3 oz, thethe equivilent of a traditional tent, sleeping pad and sleeping bag. It will keep me warm down to 15.

One more note is that finding a sleep spot is much easier than finding a tent spot. I can hang my hammock over rocks and roots on a 45 slope, or even across a stream. All I need is 2 6" diameter trees 14-20' apart. This is much more common than you might think, and where I camp, I have never had any tree anxiety. I know they will be there. If I am near large rocks, I can use a cam on one end and a tree on the other. With a litle effort, I can convert 2 paddles to support to substitute for one tree, and anchor it like a monkey bridge. The only real places I cannot hang are in the desert and above the treeline. The neither of which are within 1000 miles of where I live, so that is not an issue for me.

However, unlike, tent camping which is largely intuitive, the mechanics of hammocking are not so obvious, especially regarding staying warm in temperatures below 70. There is a definate learning curve, and like any real camping skill, takes practice to master. My setup honestly cost more than traditional camping equipment, but the comfort gained is more than worth it.

If you are interested, you must go to www.hammockforums.net. There is a lot of information there, and it is easy to experience "information overload." I spent a solid 3 months last fall learning and preparing to hammock, and I am still tweaking my gear and upgrading a do-dad or two, but for me, that is part of the fun.

I have the camporee this weekend, a campout/backpack trek over Veteran's Day weekend, a backpack trip with a friend after that, and Thanksgiving weekend, my son and I will spend a weekend backpacking as well. So between now and December 1, I will spend another nine (9) blissful nights in my hammock! (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

So let me understand this. If a scout is doing selfless service for scouts it counts. But if he gains any other benefit from the time, he can no longer count it for scouts? So if he is doing a service for his church, like say being an usher, it may count for scouts. But not if he is credited these hours and recognized by his youth group, it somehow becomes something else and doesn't count?

None of our schools give a flying hoot what other motives a student may have for doing service. This whole "anti-double dipping" perspective seems to me to be a uniquely scout-only attitude, and rather un-scout like, as I see it.

Look at ULA packs. The Circuit or the Catalyst. I have a Medium Circuit and I am 6'1" They may do custom work if needed.

http://www.ula-equipment.com

Also look into Six Moon Designs backpacks and Gossomer Gear, other small US backpack manufacturers. These backpacks are designed for lighter loads so you must take a more lightweight approach than typical crews at Philmont.

Then look up these articles by Doug Prosser on lightweight hiking at Philmont.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list_philmont.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/philmont.html

The lightweight system he promotes looks far beyond the backpack, but it will give you some great ideas. If you like, look at backpackinglight.com and find the forum. They have discussion groups on hiking light with scouts and hiking Philmont. Great resource.

Good luck.

As far as a sleeping bag goes, actually I am not going to be using one. I am switching to top quilts. If you are not familiar with TQs, they are like a sleeping bag with a V cut back (bottom), following the practice that any down or synthetic insulation on which you sleep (compress) does not provide you but a very negligable amount of insulation. Your sleeping pad should provide you with sufficient warmth/insulation from the ground. These are popluar amongst hammock sleepers and ultralight enthusiasts.

With winter approaching, I will be getting a 20 TQ, which weights just about 20 oz. As the weather warms, I will pick up a 40 TQ (15 oz). I will loan one of these to my son when he goes to Philmont next summer. It is easy to supplement with a additional clothing layers to get camp in temps below the rated temps. Thus carrying a 15 oz TQ is much better on the back (pack weight) than a 2-3 lb synthetic sleeping bag.

We did some planning, and figured out he could get a base weight of around 11-12 lbs (minus clothing) before adding food, water and fuel. This includes the entire tent (not divided) AND a 10x12 silnylon tarp. But it also assumes a minimal amount of cooking gear for simpler meals which only require boiling water and no clean up.

As for food, I have plenty of resources of experienced Philmonters here from whom I can seek advice. I just felt it was quicker and easier to poll the campfire gang first to get some ideas. Thanks for all the input, and feel free to keep the ideas coming. (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Brent, as always you offer sound and well supported advice. Thanks for the article from BPL, it reinforces our philosophy regarding lighter backpacking.

I do have one other question for everyone experienced here. Since Philmont allows anyone to bring their own gear or use gear they provide, is the same true about food? We have gotten into the habit of creating our own Freezer Bag Cooking (FBC) backpack meals. They would be like pre-made backpack meals (Mountain House, Backpacker's Pantry, etc) but because we make the meal, we have more control over things like sodium, preservatives and nutrition. It also means that we only have to boil water, and no cooking is required, so clean up is easier and less gear must be carried. Apparently Philmont provided breakfasts and lunches are generally no cook, so this could really be used to reduce backpack weight.

Any thoughts on this approach: Bringing our own dinners and only using Philmont's breakfast, lunches and snacks?

Thanks for all the resources. I am still soaking them all up. One question I have for everyone, is what type rating of sleeping bag would you recomend? 40? 20? We are looking at a lightweight sleeping bag purchase very soon and want to know at what range we should be looking. It will be the first week of August, 2012.

Also, for the group gear on the gear list, how many tarps are recomended for a crew, or how many per person? Our troop has some backpack tarps (12x12 Kelty Noah's tarp at 2 lbs or I have a 10x12 sil nylon at 19 oz) they could plan to use; just trying to figure out how many to be thinking about.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Great article!

Thanks Kudu.

Interestingly, this became law, in a variety of forms and ammendments through the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act. There is now an Eagle Feather repository, a national collection of feathers of dead birds which is preserved for Native Americans and their rituals, rites and ceremonies.

More on the law can be found here:L

http://www.fws.gov/laws/lawsdigest/baldegl.html

Information on the repository can be found here:

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/law/eagle/

My understanding (based on what I have read in the Committee Guidebook and on the scouting.org) is that the COR is not a part of the committee, unless he also registers as the Committee Chair. He does represent the unit (or units) and may be a part of the District Committee and the Counil Exectutive Committee. Most, of course, do not follow through with these responsibilities.

This page has some intersting information. It is one session of the outline for COR training. Not always specific and detailed, but certainly insightful.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR/04.aspx

>>Did you ask them?>...But what really surprised us was the weight of our personal gear in the Northern Tier treks. We easily had one less bag per canoe than most crews simply because of our backpacking experiences. Duluth packs are rather large, so that is a lot of gear we left behind compared to other crews.>...He was carrying approximately 32 lbs + food and water.

Eagledad, sorry if I made my point poorly. I am not really talking about a tent vs a tarp. I am saying that if you knock off 2 lbs on a tarp, and 2 more on a tent and a little more here or there, you can easily save 10 lbs or more. That makes an incredible difference in a day's weight of hiking. For a hiker in good shape, that can mean coming into camp unwinded with plenty of energy; for a one in less than perfect shape, it could make the difference between approaching the breaking point and still being a ways from it. Having more energy and feeling better (physically and mentally) about one's accomplishment is a tremendous boost to the mountaintop experience.

For some of the scouts in our troop, they had no interest in doing any more hikes with 35-40 lbs on their back. But working with them to drop 10-15 lbs (or more, in one case) from their carried weight changed their whole attitude, and turned around what would otherwise become a very poor experience.

Back to my original question, are scouts allowed to bring their own (2-man) tents or prehaps a lighter tarp than those provided by Philmont?

One more question. I did not see a suggested rating for a sleeping bag. There is (on the summer list) a section for cold clothing (polar fleece, etc) so is there an expectation to bring a 3-season (20F) or would a summer bag (40) suffice? Again, to the point, this would make a difference in weight....

I discussed this with my SE a couple of years ago. This is what was explained to me.

Within a council, a scout may be registered to one Cub Scout Pack or one Boy Scout Troop. In addition to a troop, a Boy Scout may be registered to one Venture Crew OR one Sea Scout Ship. A Venturer may be registered in UP to two units (Venturing Crew(s) and/or Sea Scout Ships). Youth membership may not exceed 2 units.

As each council has a separate charter, so what happens in different councils is largely immaterial, however it may become quite a difficult issue if advancement is taking place in multiple units and/or councils.

This discussion arose from a situation was made aware of (when attending an out of council training) regarding a boy who split time between mom and dad (different councils) who had been held back in school. Mom inisisted he be registered as a Cub Scout in the local pack, while dad had him registered in troop as a Boy Scout in his town. I can only imagine this made for a very confusing scout record. Luckily, I didn't have to deal with that messed up situation.

Thanks for the info. As much scouting experience as I have (youth and adult), I have yet to make it to Philmont. I guess my concern here is that in our troop, we have been working to encourage an approach where the focus is on lightening ones load in order to enjoy the hike more. So far this has been a great success (for those who have gone this route). My son hates a heavy backpack (as do I!). Why carry (share) a 5 lb tent, when one can carry one that weighs 1.5 lbs (or share one that weighs less than 2.5 lbs). My load on a 3 day weekend has gone from 44 lbs down to under 20 (winter weight). He started around 35 lbs and is now under 25 and as we replace gear, his baseweight is dropping as well.

I also question the 4 lb 12x12 tarp. Our troop uses 12x12 Kelty Noah's tarps which weigh an ounce or two over 2 lbs. With my hammock, I use a 10x12 sil nylon tarp which weighs just 22 oz (including tie outs and stakes). If Philmont is really the "mountaintop" experience it is cracked up to be, why "force" scouts to carry 10 lbs of extra gear in order to experience it?

If 2 man tents are required, then a Six Moons Lunar Duo would be nice at a shade over 2.5 lbs.

My son may be going to Philmont next summer, and we are looking at gear. I am a bit of an ultralight enthusiast (with a hammock) and my son would be on the verge of getting a hammock as well. But as hammocks are not allowed at Philmont (not sure if that is the backcountry or everywhere), we are now considering a lightweight solo tent. Knowing that also "tarp tents" are prohibited there is much gray area between tarps and tents.

I am looking to define this gray area, but for those of you who are experienced in this area, we are specifically looking at the Lightheart Solo Standard, Six Moons Lunar Solo and TT Rainbow.

Any thoughts on these (or other ultralight-) tents at Philmont?

I guess my attitude is a little simpler. If you don't want to have EVERYONE read what you want to announce that you are doing, the keep your page private. If you do want to tell EVERYONE what you are doing, then keep it open. If it is private, then it should not be on the table. If it is open, then anything's game.

Another important consideration is what where this may (or may not) connect to the troop. Does the troop have a Facebook? Does his FB page link back to a troop FB page? Troop webpage? Charter Organization page? If so, then such posting may be associated with the troop and CO. If it an "open" page, then it should be open to public discussion. (QQQ for scout at BOR: "How do you feel your illegal use of alcohol, as posted on your site reflects on you as a scout?" or "Do you feel your expression of your exploits is in keeping with the Scout Oath's commitment to keep you '...mentally awake and morally straight'?")

If on the other hand, these pages are "private" then there may be an obvious attempt to disassociate one activity from another, which may need to be treated differently.

We had an incident 2 years ago in which a scout had some substantially inappropriate material on his (open) FB and MySpace pages (porn, white supremacikst, etc). There was also a link back to the troop with references to the CO (none of the troop or CO references were portrayed in a negative manner). The decision was made by the COR (and the CO) to remove the scout from the troop.

SR540Beaver, thank you my friend for the kind words of support. I can assure you that what I put here is only the tip of the iceberg. Here are just a few examples:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=267849#id_267849

and

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=286275#id_286311

The scout just turned 14 and has attended NYLT (one of less than a dozen scouts in our council to do so as NYLT is not offered locally) and NAYLE (the only scout in our council to ever have attended). He has already earned 55 MBs, a significant portion of which he earned with his parents as MBCs (while with the previous troop). There was once a blowup when I assigned him a counselor for a MB when he wanted to have his father as a counselor. He allegedly cried over the incident (according to his father, who called all in a huge huff).

When they left their previous troop, it had just about come apart at the seams. The parents (ASMs) had hijacked the other ASMs and the SPL at summer camp (the SM did not attend that week). The scout earned 12 MBs that week, and 6 scouts quit or transferred after camp. I am not sure which number is more unbelievable. Some of these details did not emerge until after they switched to our unit.

So why did we accept this walking disaster into our troop? We were approaching a low point in our troop (membership wise). We saw it coming (aging out scouts and others loosing interest), but we saw an "experienced" scout as a way to invigorate our program; the scout had great potential and we was well supported by his parents (something our outgoing scouts lacked).

It has been a tough few years, but we are now on a strong building campaign, with great up and coming leaders. Our adult support has increased from near zero to mostly functional, and our prospects for this year are looking good. I only hope that our current make-up of scouts and adults provide a good stepping stone to continued growth and development of our program and our scouts.

Sorry if this came off as confusing. I want to focus on the parent rather than the scout; but I will briefly sum up.

The scout and parents transferred to our troop 22 months ago after a falling out with another local troop. Because of the past history with the other troop and concerns about their interaction with the scouts, the decision was made to offer the parents positions on the committee rather than as ASMs, which they only begrudgingly accepted. Our relationship with the parents has been challenging, at best, but I continued to work with our CC and COR to find meaningful responsibilities for them within the troop. They resisted any offers of actual committee positions, but both were registered with the district as counselors for a score of MBs each. I know they have a lot to offer, and when several scouts wanted to work on the Fishing MB before a fishing campout in May, I assigned the mother as their MBC. Sometime before May, both parents dual enrolled with a brand new troop, as ASMs. Both the mother and father had maintained a cantankerous relationship with me (in spite of the fact that I was one of the few troop leaders actually making an effort to involve them with the troop), and I was frequently reminded that they were registered with another unit as ASMs.

The scout attended NYLT last summer (out of council just 3 weeks after his 13th birthday), the National Jamboree, and this year NAYLE at Philmont (while the parents attended PTC for their second time). The scout has been serving as SPL since September, and has done a fair job, at best. As he would be out of the country when we were at summer camp (People to People in China), he announced he would be attending our local camp with another troop as a contingent camper a different week (we ended up sending 2 other scouts with the other troop as well.) I found about about his involvement with this other troop when I spoke to the SM about our 3 contingent campers and he advised me our scout had been helping out this troop for several months. As SPL for over 6 months, our scout had been complaining about being too overloaded (I was unaware of his work with the other troop at the time), and as he would be out for much of the summer (NAYLE and China), we agreed that he would work with the ASPL as closely as he could until elections, which he did. We changed our election cycle last February, and last night were the new elections. Following the meeting he approached me and announced he was leaving. By now, I had been expecting this for several months, so I was able to talk to him about it without surprise. I expressed my disappointment as his departure but wished him the best and assured him I would see that his records were transfered and in order.

A minute or so later his mother approached me, very concerned about receiving a copy of all his service hours (I cannot explain her fixation on this issue, but obviously, it meant something to her). He had just this past week done several hours of volunteer work at a local nursing home, including a significant effort to repair wheelchairs and other equipment and facilites; he had in fact that night given me a brief description of his work and an account of his hours. I started to explain to his mother that I had not yet recorded this when she interrupted me, stormed across the room and shouted that I never did anything to support her son.

And they were gone.

Under the circumstances, I no longer feel it is appropriate to have our scouts continue with her as their MBC for Fishing. I just wanted some advice on how to proceed, under the circumstances.

We have a family who has just left our troop. The parents have been registered ASMs of another troop for several months, and the scout has been working with that troop as well. The scout formally advised me last night that he was leaving. The mother (a MC with our troop) ended up leaving in a huff over some self created drama. She has been serving as a MBC for some of our scouts for at least one Merit Badge. I no longer feel it is appropriate to have her continue to work with our scouts.

How would you handle this situation?

There is more to the answer of this question than just a number. We had 5 scouts practice for the mile swim during our week at camp, all of whom completed all 4 practice sessions. One broke his arm on Thursday evening, and one, a first year scout, was not able to complete the mile. But the other 3 did finish. These were the first scouts in our troop to complete the mile swim in at least 5 years, possibly longer.

Just as importantly for all 3, the mile swim was the last requirement for their Aquatics rocker of their National Outdoor Award.

I felt it was a very positive accomplishment these scouts, but it also served as an important stepping stone for our troop, providing a stepping stone for our younger scouts, showing them what can be done.

I second what emb021 said.

Wood Badge and Seabadge ("Wood Badge" is two words while "Seabadge" is one) are two different courses each with a very different purpose.

I would suggest the Khaki uniform for WB. If your ship has a t-shirt or polo shirt worn as casual wear, that would suffice; otherwise, the official Sea Scout polo would be good.

Keep in mind that upon completion of the course (and tickets) the beads are NOT to be worn with the Sea Scout uniform. The only acceptable WB insignia is the ax and log pin to be worn on the pocket flap.

I would certainly encourage the participant to also attend their regional Seabadge course upon completion of WB, if they have not already done so. It builds up WB with program and environment specifically suited to the Sea Scout program and especially useful in the ship environment.

I recomend Laughing Cow, Hillshire Farms, or most any single serve cheese packed in wax. These should last some time without refrigeration. Also, parmesan cheese is available in "shelf stable" packaging, like you get at Pizza Hut.

Another option is dehydrated cheese powder (like found in mac-n-cheese boxes). Package the powder with the appropriate amount of milk powder and just add water. You can purchase it here:

http://www.packitgourmet.com/Cheese-Sauce-Powder-p315.html

My son was a Den Chief for a year and a half. He was presented the Service Award at the Blue and Gold, right before the Webelos crossover ceremony. It was also announced at the next CoH, a month later. He wears it proudly to this day, and I think he is more proud of that award than anything else he has accomplished in scouts thus far.

Sure thing. We had 7 new scouts attend camp. We did not participate in the BP program, but instead worked with "Operation First Class." The reason for this is that all our FY scouts had almost completed Tenderfoot. We had covered much of the "Health and Safety" with the troop, so they were enrolled in "Scoutcraft" and "First Aid" sessions. Classes were small and organized, and I can say that the requirements covered were done thoroughly and with discipline. That said, in 4 hours of Scoutcraft class, only FC requirements 1 and 7ab were completed; in "First Aid," only FC requirement 8 was completed, but several First Aid MB requirements were covered. No Second Class requirements were completed. For 8 hours of the week, the scouts were a little bored, and I do not feel that the time was ultimately well spent. I don't intend to tell the scouts that, as overall they had a great time at camp; but I will keep it in mind next year.

If you want a good first year program, I recomend either Camp Daniel Boone (Canton, NC) or Woodruff (Blairsville, GA). Each have a different approach, but both have great staffs and a well developed program.

Hope that helps.