Buffalo Skipper

I had been wondering the same thing. We have 3 patrols which, if they stick to it, will earn the NHP next month. In addition to the star on the uniform, I want to reward them with something to put on their flag which all around them can see. The NHP has not been earned in our district in recent memory (and never in our troop under that name), and I want the patrols to be able to show it off at the next camporee. By then, they could have earned it a second time as well....

It is my opinion, that the requirements for the Pack Trainer award are the most difficult of any Cub Scout level recognition. As an example, it requires a 100% trained level of Pack leaders for 2 years. By comparison, a Pack Trainer can complete the Cub Scouter award (as a Pack Trainer) by having only a 75% trained ratio.

As many of you have read, I have tried to keep you posted on the growth and development occurring in our troop, and I would like to offer a few updates.

Troop.

Our troop is up to 25 (from 11 active just 4 months ago). Obviously such growth comes with new scouts, and a significant amount of focus must be given to ensure their continued interest and involvement (more on that below). Since March, we have recruited 4 new ASMs, and 2 new committee members, but just as importantly, we have had 2 of our ASMs who are/were jointly Pack leaders paticipate more actively with the unit. All 8 these are scheduled to attend SM training next Saturday, which I have organized (leaders from other troops will attend as well).

Our troop was divided into 3 patrols with an SPL and ASPL. The SPL, about whom I have spoken often, has chosen to step down due to a series of commitments this summer and a busy end of school year. He was placed in a patrol (he is Life and still a den chief). The ASPL (who was SPL a year ago) has stepped up, but he will have sports commitments by the end of the summer. Though a reasonable leader, he could stand significant improvement in organizational skills.

Patrols.

My goal has been to see a strong and effective patrol system in our troop, and to see that the scouts see themselves as a member of a patrol first, and that their and other patrols make up the troop. All our patrol leaders have completed the Green Bar Training, which was conducted in the fall/winter. It went fairly well, but I can see where improvements can be made the next time it is offered. Patrols are largely made up of two or three "experienced" scouts, and 4 to 6 brand new scouts. Obviously, these patrols need a degree of encouragement and assistance. The ratios are just too steep for the patrol to function without a degree of guidance and support.

We have been strongly encouraging our patrols in two particular areas. First, we have promoted the National Honor Patrol. All the patrols are close to achieving this, but one missed their monthly window for meetings and must "start over." The other two should complete the requirements by summer camp (end of June). The second area of "focus" has been for patrol leaders to work with their scouts on advancement, specifically Tenderfoot. For scouts who crossed over on March 1, it is not unreasonable to see that they have completed this rank by June.

We are working to assign an ASM to each patrol to assist and support the PL. This level of adult association is not our ultimate goal, and I would very much like to see our scout's leadership skills develop to the point that we can "reassign" the ASMs to other duties soon. As and example, one patrol has a PL who is a second year scout (15 months in the troop) and he has one other scout (a third year), but who is semi-active, and has few real support skills. The remaining 6 scouts are green and, though they all came out of the same Webelos den and are friends, they have had some personality conflicts and small but noteworthy discipline issues which a 1 year scout is unprepared to handle. Having an ASM who can mentor the PL and facilitiate the scouts (to follow/work with the PL) is necessary. Over time, this relationship will decrease as the scouts gain skills and become more self sufficient. The dynamic of the other patrols nearly identical.

We have also asked that each patrol conduct their own campout (with adult/parental attendance) sometime before summer is over. The skills these patrols have developed enables them to go out on their own and camp with a minimal amount of support. Two patrols have begun this planning process.

In other good news, one of our scouts is today off to NYLT. This is significant, as our council has yet to host this program, and his is being driven nearly 400 miles to a course. He understands our focus on patrol method, and he and I have discussed the course and he is prepared, though at 13 he is young. When he returns from the NJ in August, he will likely step into the expected vacant SPL role in advance of September elections.

Progress is slow. Getting the new leaders to understand the program and to grasp how we are trying to implement it is always a challenge. As always, I would encourage feedback and any ideas of how to tweak the program to get the most out of it.

Though discussed in another post, it was pointed out that specific youth knots are representative only of the highest award for each division:

Cub Scouts=AOL knot

Boy Scouts=Eagle knot

Venturing=Silver Award knot

Sea Scouting=Quartermaster knot

The religious recognitions (awards) are (k)not issued or run by BSA, so wouldn't be catagorized as those listed above.

I agree that the Den Chief Service Award is commendable and uncommon, but it does not meet the "criteria" categorized above.

Well, after months of debating, I heard through the grape vine that last night, the patrol decided upon a name, well sort of. The PLC adopted a policy a year ago to have patrol names fall under the category of "Florida Wildlife." Hence: Manatees, Mosquitos and Flamingos. It is the Flamingos which were a problem. They were named by the SPL (PL of the preceeding patrol) who abandoned the troop shortly afterward.

The new crossing over scouts (who are in the majority) didn't like the "Flamingo" image, but couldn't agree on another name. The recently elected PL has suggested dozens of names to me, not a one of which fit the PLC decision. He is a bit of a clown and finally came up with a way to "pull one over on me." They are apparently naming their patrol the "Squirrels." But they want to adopt a "Road Kill" patch. I heard that the would "publically" call themselves the Squirrels but would privately call themselves the "Roadkill" patrol. (The patch only remotely looks like a squirrel)

I find this kind of idea to be deceptive and dishonest, not the qualities which I would like to associate with a young group of scouts. I do not want to keep saying "No" to this patrol, but neither do I want this to be a battle of wills between myself and the PL. Any ideas on how to turn this into a positive discussion?

Scout Wetpers. Very nice. I assume that since this is sung to the tune of "O Tannenbaum," that should be pronounced with a German "W" like the "V" (Scout Vetpers). Yes?

I certainly understand about scouts whose interest does wane or change. I didn't want to talk about specific cases, but I have 2 scouts who for the most part doing very well. They have good skills, few other interests, and they appear to thrive. Neither have conflicts with other scouts, and both have shown great leadership potential. One is less mature and has shown little interest in pursuing advanced leadership while the other has taken on extra responsiblities and when he is present is obviously engaged. But he is now rarely showing up. These are not the "lost" kids who "need" scouting. These are the younger kids who appear on the surface to enjoy giving to scouts and are involved. I have not seen this happen before.

Have you spoken to the counselors for these badges? The counselors should sign and remove their portion and retain for their own records.

Most of our local counselors keep records for a year or more.

OK, I have a "Third 2001 Printing." Obviously, there have been newer printings, but have there been any updates since this?

I still need to get the DVD, but I do have the old CDROM with the ppt and handouts....

First, thanks to MattR for a great and thoughtful thread. The topic and replies have given me much to ponder and consider now and in the future. And it got me to thinking about something else....

How much should we be hanging on to scouts who are drifting away from scouts? When a scout, especially a young scout, say in the troop for 18 months or less (but not to exclude older scouts from the discussion) starts to loose interest, how do you reinvigerate their interest? What about when the parents are supportive but don't want to "fight" the lack of interest in scouting? I am not talking about "problem" scouts here, I really am referring to scouts with reasonable skills and obvious potential who are a blessing to the program?

Your thoughts?

Good day scouters!

I spent several years on our district's training committee and coordinated Leader Specific training for Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Venturing, and Sea Scout Leaders, and I have over the past several years taught every one of these programs.

A year ago or so (just after I became inactive on the DC), the name of the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training

(formerly "Scoutmaster Essentials") appears to have been changed to "Boy Scout Leader Specific Training." Is this true, or is it just a matter of the headings and how the information is categorized? And lastly, has this material been updated in the recent past, and if so when?

Along with several other district trainers, I will be heading up a session for our new troop leaders (including committee members) in 3 weeks; we will be doing only the classroom portion. I have the district training chair getting me a copy of the latest syllabus, but I will not get it until after the weekend, and wanted to know what I might expect as compared to the old syllabus, of which I have several copies.

Here is what scouting.org says about this curriculum:

"For Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters, this training is divided into four parts. The first three parts concentrate on troop operation and can be completed in one full day or three evenings. The fourth part, which focuses on outdoor skills, lasts approximately a day and a half, depending on the skill level of the new leader. The leader is considered trained upon completion of This Is Scouting, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills."

Our troop has a special woggles presented for mastery of different levels of knots skills. They have a 3-strand woggle, with a "do a good turn daily" overhand loop tied into the lowermost strand. To make it right requires a little more planning (and length) than is required for a standard woggle. I use a 54" length of sierra cord.

Acid Test,

There are merits to both methods. Much of it depends upon the size and make up, and structure of the rest of the troop (I'll get into that later).

Properly done, an new scout patrol should never be worked like a Webelos III, even in the figurative sense. A NSP should be lead by a scout (sometimes an experienced scout from another patrol) and the NSP patrol leader and the whole patrol should be mentored by an older scout who is dedecated to serving that patrol as a Troop Guide. Many troops assign an ASM to work with that patrol also. This ASM should never act as a Den Leader. He should step back and allow the PL to be in change and support the Troop Guide in his mentoring.

There are some disadvantages to the NSP system, which can be minimized, depending on how a troop implements the system. In a "strict" NSP system, scouts of the same age will theroetically remain together throughout their troop experience. Remember that the Patrol method defines patrols as 6-8 scouts. Getting and maintaining these "ideal" numbers can be difficult, even in the best of circumstances. It also leaves young scouts with a limited number of experienced mentors in their immediate group. Advancement comes at slower pace (not that a troop should measure the speed of advancement as an indication of success), and skills may not be as quickly mastered.

The main (percieved) disadvantage of integrated patrols is that newer scouts do not remain "together." My observation is that this is largely a parental issue, and not a genuire hendrance to a scout's success in the troop. But it can place older scouts in constant contact with new recruits. For the older scouts, this can sometimes be frustrating, especially if they want to hang out with their own peers.

The dynamics of the troop, age and experience wise, can play a major role in how the unit implements these systems.

I believe that blend of the systems holds the greatest promise, and many troops represented here may use a variation of this. Webelos are crossed over into NSPs and they remain there until they complete their Tenderfoot, at which time they are placed in experienced patrols. Now that they have some basic skills, they are more easily integrated into these groups. Likewise, the NSP is only half the program. On the other end of the age spectrum, older scouts are organized into "ventrue" patrols, which often include upper troop leadership, such as Scribe, Quartermaster, Troop Guide, SPL and ASPLs.

There has been much discussion on this topic, so be sure to research other threads on this:

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=179776

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=263933

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=261209

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=254056

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=245207

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=211407

Hope that helps.

I am looking into a Cannon D10. It is shock resistant (6') and water resistant (30'). We do quite a bit of backpacking in all weather and a great variety of canoeing and other waterborne activities. My only complaint is that it is bulkier and heavier than many of the modern "one-shot" cameras.

I am currently using a Kodak, which does not handle weather well at all. I took it on the Suwannee River last summer and kept it in a ziplock pouch in a waterproof pouch of my PFD. The electronics went haywire after I got soaked during a rain (the camera remained completely dry) and ever since, will become eratic on most rainy days, like on our January backpack trip.

I like Cannon products (having owned first and second gen Cannon cameras) and hope to get one of the D10s by mid summer.

We have a "Golden Spatula" award. I go down to the Dollar Store and buy a cheap metal spatula, and spray it with a metalic gold paint. I then use fabric paint to label the year. Patrols can hang it from their flag just like other award ribbons. Of course the younger scouts really get a kick out of the Sponge Bob reference.

In fact, we have had to reschedule the campout for this month and the PLC ended up including a cook-off, so I will be sure to make one this week.

Thanks for all the replies. I have not intention in interfering or directing the scouts to change their patrol name.

Where I was going about this was more about "continuity." Once a patrol changes its name, the old patrol "ends." The old flag goes away (hung on the wall around the room), along with all the old awards and ribbons the patrol earned. When the name is changed, the patrol starts a new. No history, nothing. If a patrol was working on the National Honor Patrol, they start over.

Do you agree with this? I want the patrols to have a real sense of continuity, and it is hard to do that if they are changing their name every 6 months.

For those of you experienced with scout-led troops, how do your patrols decide to change their names. Obviously we are talking by a majority or super-majority vote. But what is the process, after that? Who buys the new patches? What becomes of the old flag? Do the old patrol's awards just go away?

Just looking for some ideas on how to handle this one.

Our troop has not adopted a hat, but there is talk amongst the new socuts that they want one. I sometimes wear the brimmed hat. It is not so "stiff" as the campaign hat, but to me is a good looking hat which impresses a good image. Interesingly, I do not wear the Adult Universal Hat pin. Instead, I wear a recreation of the old 1st Class Scoutmaster pin. I wear no other adornment on my hat. I most often wear the brimmed hat with the Class A in the outdoors or when travelling.

When I am in a Class B uniform, I often wear a Greek fisherman's hat with another 1st class scoutmaster pin on the front. My walking stick, with which I am rarey seen without, has a carved and painted buffalo on the top.

In our area, the OA lodges send out election teams to troop meetings. They show the video talk about it for a few minutes and conduct the vote. I have provided ballots (as Crew21_Adv suggests), but the election team (scouts, not adults) tallies and reports the results to the SM. Only the scouts get a vote. There can be no "re-ordering" of votes or "extra" votes to see that some other scout does get in.

Adults, however, do have a vote. The committee can select one adult (for every 50 scouts?) to attend ordeal. This means that the scouts and committee members get to vote, but the SM and ASMs do not. That is not a complaint, just the way it is.

Thank you all for the kind words and warm welcome. Ordeal was, for me, a meaningful and rewarding experience. I went in with high expecations and felt it was at least what I thought it would be.

By coincidence, our chapter meets at our troop's scout hut, and I have already been to a meeting. One of our leaders is a chemist and he came out with a co-worker and liquid nitrogen, and the two of them put on a rather convincing demonstration. I can't wait to get them to our troop meeting.

Local hype at the meeting was that our Section was selected best in the nation, and our Lodge was selected as best in the Section. Their new t-shirts say that plus "You do the math." As we have the largest and most active chapter in the lodge, I guess that is as good a place as any to get started in the OA.

We have plenty of good adult leadership, and I am just a novice. I guess I will spend the next year learning what I can (already been through the OA Handbood 2x, but reading from a book and experiencing the organization are two completely differnt cookies). Someone convinced me that I can be an active member of the OA by promoting the organization within our troop. That I can do while I learn more and find out where else I can contribute. No rush, though. Neither I nor the lodge are going away any time soon.

We considered a slightly different idea for patches. We have considered giving each scout a personalized backpack cover upon completing their first backpack with the troop. We have a mom who has 2 embroidery machines, so she could add the troop emblem and the scout's name. Scouts could also add patches as they saw fit. It would make sense to use waterproof spray (outside and in) on the embroidery, patches and threads to seal them well.

Doesn't change the weight issue, but it does improve on the concern of holes and waterproofing. Also, a wet patch will weigh much more than one which has been thoroughly waterproofed and resists soaking up mosisture.

This may be the year we choose to do this. Or not.

Sure do. For a while, they started telling the story to the Cub Scouts at family camps, but that ended when too many cubbies stayed scared all night and couldn't sleep.

The camp is not what it used to be, or at least it is not what my boyhood image was, which may well be skewed in nostalgia. But we have a great SE and for the first time a full time council PD, both of whom are dedicated to upgrading the facilites. With the current economy, a capital campaign is out, so we are doing little, but necessary, improvements as required. We put new windows in the dining hall, and are planning on a new roof. We are repaving a portion of the road from the ranger house to the dining hall. Windows, roof and pavement are all original and 50 years old. Long term plans call for much more.

It is not the most luxurious camp in the south, but it is one of the largest, and at $160 (in council), it is one of the most affordable. We may not have extravagant facilities, but we have excellent program. How can you go wrong with a legend of a one eyeed indian warrior wandering the reservation who can never die?

DancesWithSpreadsheets,

Thanks for noticing. Yes it was at Euchee. That makes (unofficially) nights 159 and 160 which I have collectively spent at our beloved scout reservation. As I said in my original post, I have patiently been waiting for years for the opportunity to be involved with the OA, so my expectations of the ordeal experience were understandably high. I did what I could to make it as meaningful and thoughtful experience as I could. I was not surprised to find that the actual ceremony was well executed and and rewarding. One of my good friends was Elengomat, which only added to the experience. And of course feast was excellent (ribeyes!). On a more physical note, we added another row in the front and back of Whipple Circle.

You ought to come to the Chapter meeting tonight. It is at the Troop 3 scout hut at 7pm. I don't think they will make you pay for all 28 years of back dues owed. That would be, well, more than $50. ;>)

Thanks again for the warm welcome.

With our new group of scouts, we have a pretty good group of scouts, but there are a few notable ones on whom we are keeping a close eye.

At (summer) camp, throwing sticks and stones is a common problem, sometimes eventually resulting in someone getting hurt. Our solution is that if a scout is caught throwing a stick or rock, he must carry a (much larger) stick or rock wherever he goes. This usually lasts about 20-30 minutes until the point is made. Next time, it is a larger item for a longer period of time. It has never happened with us more than twice in a weekend.

My son crossed a year ago. My wife was the den leader and I was the receiving Scoutmaster. He had been in the same den with is friends mostly since Tigers. Proud was an understatement. The year before he crossed, I took over a struggling den and pledged to see them through to Boy Scouts. All but one who lives across town crossed to my troop. I was as proud of them as I was my own son. It was again a challenge to run (out of sight) from one side of the stage where the Webelos were receiving their AOL to the opposite end of the bridge to receive these scouts into the troop. Because of this I have never crossed the bridge, like all the other parents have.

Watching my son grow with the troop has been an even more dramatic transition of which I am extremely proud. This is happening as he is physically changing as well. His waist has dropped 2" and his height has gone up 4". His voice has changed, and he is now a patrol leader in a young troop. Though I have mentored him, I am always surprised that he is making decisions without me (as a father or scoutmaster) and they are well thought out choices for himself, his patrol and his troop. Last night in the car, he asked me if it would be appropriate for his patrol to work on a merit badge together (Astronomy). I said that that was up to he and his patrol and he then thoughtfully asked about taking his patrol to the planetarium (he did not know it but the professor who runs it at the college was a part of our troop). He then suggested that it would be neat to invite a Webelos den to accompany his patrol when they went.

It is one thing to be proud when a "forced transition," like crossover, takes place; it is another whole level when he grows into a young man and exceeds your expecations for him.

Sit back and enjoy the ride!