Buffalo Skipper

"I'm not certain that "instant rank and badges" are necessary...that puts a lot more work on the AC...especially in a large troop ... (how much gas do you want the AC to waste?)

I think the boys prefer to get the stuff presented a the CoH anyway."

Instant Recognition IS EXTREMELY important!!!!!

Scouts want to get that patch to put on their uniform ASAP! I once missed a scout who had just had a BOR and he came up to me and very sadly asked why I had not recognized him? It is a HUGE deal.

Court of Honor is the recognition the scouts get in front of their parents. Every scout is presented with their Rank Cards and MB Cards (and on rare occasion, a patch, if the timing is right) at the CoH. These are accompanied by the recognition ceremony. Not uncommonly, one or two scouts will advance two ranks at the CoH. They already have their appropriate rank patch on their uniform, but they participate in both recognition ceremonies.

Scouts wear their MB sash proudly at the CoH, and for those scouts who may have earned MBs since the last CoH, this is the chance to show off what they have done. If you wait to present these until the CoH, then they can't display them until the NEXT CoH. If you only do 3 a year that could be 8 months after they earn a MB before they have an occassion to wear it. That is just wrong, on so many levels.

Any scout who prefers to get his "stuff" presented at a CoH is happy only because he is ignorant that it should be presented right away. Shame on you.

If a parent came up to me (or emailed, or phoned, or texted....), I would kindly remind them that it is the scout's responsibility to handle their advancement. If a scout needs a SM conference, I remind them that it is the scout who should approach me to see that it is done. Then I advise them that I always arrive at the scout hut 45 to 60 minutes early EVERY week, so that any scout can meet with me to discuss anything they wish.

Once the scout has completed the SMC, they are handed a piece of paper (and an explanation is given) advising them that it is their responsiblity to contact the Advancement Coordinator (our committee has no sub-committees, so there is only one "Chair") to schedule a BoR. This is generally done the same or the following week.

We recognize immediately after they have completed their BoR, most often at the meeting the same night. This includes a rank badge, and moving their "chit" on the board from one rank to the next. CoH is usually reserved for presentation of cards and a recognition in front of parents. I once tried to see that a scout had the opportunity to have his BoR right before a CoH. He ended up with an "unscheduled" football practice, and no-showed. I won't put myself out on a limb for a CoH again. We do 4 a year; there is plent of opportunity for recognition.

Here's a question. For those of you who present rank patches at meetings (most of us, I presume), is the rank presented by the SM or the SPL?

Troopmaster is EASY to export a calendar to GOOGLE calendar. Go to:

File>Export>ActivityList(vCalendarFormat)

This creates and .ics file which can be uploaded to a Google Calendar. We post our Google Calendar on our website, but this is especially beneficial for the members (and scouts) with smart phones with a Google Calendar app (free). When I am out somewhere, and need to verify a scheduled activity, I just pull out my phone. The calendar is prominently on my "home" page, and of course my app overlays my personal calendar and the OA calendar as well.

Hope that helps.

Topshot, thanks, I already did. I based my presentation on 3 different papers I found online. Yours, Doug Prossers and one from about 18 months ago out of the Sam Houston Council. I appreciate the effort you put into this; it was a valuable resource for me.

Alps Mountaineering is a company which makes camping gear.

www.alpsmountaineering.com

They have a "division" or "program" called Scout Direct. It gives scouts a 45% discount on retail of all products. To register, go to:

www.scoutdirect.com

Several years ago, they offered a 1x 55% of discounts for a unit purchasing gear.

Quality is mediocre. But the price is good. I would equate their quality to Coleman. Nowhere near top end, but a reasonable bargin, when you look at what you get for the money.

We buy two man troop tents for about $75 after the discount. I expect them to last about 6 years, or 72, 2-night campouts. That works out to a cost of less than 75 per scout per night.

Most of the packs on my list several of that category of stats.

TL=Torso Length

TL 15.5"-17" $ 79.00, 31 oz: GoLite Pinacle (woman's)

TL 15.5"-17" $ 79.00, 45 oz: GoLite Quest (woman's)

TL 13"-19" $ 71.50, 57 oz: Alps Mountaineering Orizaba 3300

TL 16"-20" $125.00, 17 oz: Gossamer Gear G4

TL 14"-18" $119.00, 19 oz: Granite Gear Virga

* TL fixed. $122.50, 18 oz: ULA Equipment CDT Small fits down to 15"

Only the ULA is a fixed position, I believe. The GoLites are on sale on the golite.com site, so I presume these models are being discontinued.

Hope that helps...

Garbage is a good example of lightweight backpacking faux pas. We have our patrols repack all their possible food items to reduce or eliminate packaging, therefore reducing the amount of weight in and garbage out. Each scout is given a 1 gal ziplock in which everyone carries out their own garbage. It allows every scout to see what waste they generate consequently they have a better appreciation of what they are carrying.

It works better than one scout slogging around with the oversize, smelly garbage bag.

Basementdweller,

First, as for spending "hundreds," the choice of the least expensive of these backpacks and sleeping bags would cost about $90.00, and would weigh 5 lbs 11 oz (well below the recomended 3 lbs/item). This presented list only includes the least expensive of the items we "recomend." Bringing down these weights would be easy if the list had $200 backpacks and sleeping bags. Items this expensive are not even discussed.

By "new scout parents," these are generally made up of last year's Webelos crop, so the term "new" is relative. Also, our plan, which is presented to parents upon crossover or when a true "new" scout joins, is that we spend our year building our skills and this culminates in utilizing all they have learned (camping, cooking, orienteering, physical fitness, etc) in our Backpack season (December - February). Thus, this comes as no surprise to the parents.

As to what we do when they show up with a 30 lb pack? We do shake downs for every "new" scout pack the meeting before the trek. Unnecessary items are removed and taken home, while the backpacks remain at the scout hut. Scouts are given a list of what to bring, and the packing of these missing items is supervised the evening we leave for our trek.

One more thing to keep in mind, is that even though we have kept a close eye on scout's backpack weights, and recomended packs based upon cost and size, this is the first year that we have truly presented the material from the perspective of "lightweight backpacking," and is in fact the first time we have included the "weights" in the presentation.

Eagle732,

You have no idea just how tough it is to pick one of these backpacks, as not a single local outfitter carries a one of these packs. There are 2 local outfitters which carry quality products, but primarily products north of $175 and in excess of 4 or 5 lbs. The other end of the spectrum is Academy Sports or Sports Authority which carries cruddy gear which generally does not fit scouts. The last option is the Scout Shop, but their packs are at the upper end of the cost range we present and exceed the weight expectations. The nearest REI to us is Atlanta, 465 miles away. So the challenge is truly an uphill battle. I do know how to fit gear, and I wish I had better options.

FWIW, My son and I both have ULA Circuits (mine is a custom). He and I keep our base weights right around 12-15 lbs, depending upon the season. He and I went to REI the week after Christmas to try out some special gear before heading to Cheaha for a father-son hike. We did 30 miles over 3 days with a total pack weight of 18 and 19 lbs (including food and water). I have had as much as 26 lbs in the Circuit and it still carried well, but my goal is to not exceed 20 lbs; the 26 lbs included a 3 mile trek into a dry camp.

For more information on lightweight backpacking, I am truly a follower of Doug Prosser, who in 2009 did Philmont with a base weight (no food and water but including shared patrol gear) of under 9 lbs. Here is a great article on his approach to new scouts:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list

Here is my basic premise. 3 lbs or less each for Backpack and Sleeping Bag. (tents are provided by troop, unless a scout has own backpacking tent)

Backpacks:

$ 79.00, 31 oz: GoLite Pinacle (woman's)

$ 79.00, 45 oz: GoLite Quest (woman's)

$ 71.50, 57 oz: Alps Mountaineering Orizaba 3300

$125.00, 17 oz: Gossamer Gear G4

$119.00, 19 oz: Granite Gear Virga

$122.50, 18 oz: ULA Equipment CDT

$ 39.99, 58 oz: Outdoor Products Dragonfly

$ 65.99, 58 oz: Alps Mountaineering Red Rock

Sleeping Bags:

$ 89.98, 40 oz: Kelty Cosmic 20(550 f down)

$ 84.99, 42 oz: Kelty Cimarron 15

$ 49.98, 33 oz: Eureka Silver City 30

$ 79.98, 35 oz: Mountain Hardware Mountain Goat 20 Kids

$119.98, 34 oz: Kelty Light Year 20

Recomended pad is the Wally World blue foam special. At $8 and 12 oz (and it can be cut down if desired), this one's a no-brainer.

As mentioned, tents are provided by the troop if needed (as they are for every campout). I do not like our tents for backpacking, but they are what the committee decided to purchase. At 7 lbs, they are heavy, but when divided between 2 scouts it is do-able. Our goal is to keep every scout under 20 lbs with most being in the 15-18 pound range (with food and water).

Obviously, there is more to the presentation than this, but you get the idea. Any additional thoughts?

I would consider a 15" torso length of the Dragonfly larger than some of our scouts, and 58 oz to be heavy, but do-able. What I have found that is good is that some GoLite ultralight packs are on clearance. The woman's Pinacle is now on sale for 79.00, or 55% off the regular price. At under 2 lbs and over 3800 ci, this is a great pack. Sizes go down to a torso length of 15.5" That is alot of bang for the buck.

Don't think I am opposed to the Dragonfly. I put it on the list. For the price that will be an affordable option for some scout families.

Very soon, I will be doing a presentation to our new parents on an upcoming backpack trek for the troop. I will be focusing on an inexpensive lightweight approach. My goals are for backpack and sleeping bags to be at or under 3 lbs each.

There are constant changing sales and items available. Can any of you offer some suggestions on what you have most recently found on the internet which meets this criteria, but is fairly inexpensive? For example, GoLite has some of its ultralight backpacks on sale, but only the Woman's Pinacle and Quest are available in a size appropriate for young scouts (15.5"+ torso length).

Any ideas I can add to the list?

I own a Stratos 24. I bought it for use as a day pack. My criteria for selecting this pack was I wanted the smallest pack I could find with a fully supported hip belt structure. I also owned another Osprey pack, so I was partial to the brand.

I have been completely satisified with the pack for the purpose--a bulletproof comfortable day pack capeable of carrying any imaginable need with a full waist belt and suspension. I also use it for overnight camping with the troop. I will my hammock/tarp and sleeping bags in a small nylon bag; all other gear and clothes will fit in the Stratos 24. I really do like this pack.

Thanks for all the kind words. Actually we DO know what manatees do in the water. Middle school boys can't stop laughing about it.

For those interested in how we pulled it off, we rented 2 pontoon boats from a dive shop which caters to manatee tourists. They rented us wet suits, masks fins and snorkels. Where we went to anchor and visit the manatees is only about a mile and a half or so from the marina, but the entire route is "no wake" at this time of year due to the manatee presence, so it takes about 30 minutes to get there. We anchor out about 50 yards from the spring outlet, and hop in the cool water (constant at 72, year round), and swim. There are some roped off "sanctuaries" in the area where humans cannot enter; resting manatees are smart enough to use this area, but plenty come out and some choose to interact with us. Swimming up the the short "creek" to the Three Sisters springs is a cool expereince, as the springs are several degrees wamer than the surrounding river. Many manatees swim in the spring area, and it is a great snorkeling experience for the scouts. The Fish and Wildlife Commission has strict rules on interaction with the manatees, but most are common sense like: don't separate a mother or calf, don't harrass them, don't ride or chase them, don't feed them, and so forth.

It was a truly memorable experience for the scouts. Only one scout out of 19 chose not to swim at all, though another tried, but found the water temperature too distastful. Regardless, it was a lot of fun for all, and the 2 who remained on the boat had plenty of sightings as they manatees swam around.

We spent right at $975 on the equipment and boat rental and fuel. With 26 scouts and adults that works out to a very reasonable cost of under $38/person. Not bad for an all day activity like this.

I have taken scouts on this activity before, so it came with few surprises. However, I was caught off guard when, after we had set up camp on Saturday evening, we had a visitor wander in. It was Kudu. He and I have communicated off the forum off and on for a couple of years, but still I was not expecting it. It was great to put a face to the name. As it turns out, his troop was camping elsewhere at the same camp. Nice coincidence. We chatted around the campfire us for about 2 hours; it was a nice visit. Thanks again, Kudu, for coming out to see us. It made my weekend.

Kudu, we do the whole trip (4 days and 3 nights) for $100 a scout. That includes patrols shopping for their food, gas (900 miles round trip), camping fees, as well as boat, wet suit, mask/fins/snorkel rentals, and we pay a visit to Homasassa Springs wildlife park; overall not too bad.

Every two years we try to arrange a campout down to central Florida to swim with the manatees. Two years ago, our 5th trek to Crystal River, was marked with changes. First our membership had bottomed out at 11 scouts, with losses due to aging out and disinterested scouts. We had expected this, and had prepared for it as best a unit can. It also marked the end of this being a "family" trek with the troop camping at a scout camp rather than at a private campsite, with 2 circus tents crammed onto two 25'x40' plots. We ended up taking 6 scouts and 2 adults.

Growth in the troop and additional support have changed things. Tomorrow, we are leaving in the church bus, staying at a "remote" scout camp (20 miles closer to where we are going, but with fewer facilities). We will have 7 adults accompanying 19 scouts. This is the largest group we have ever taken, exeeding our previous best by 10. It represents a real change in the direction of our troop, and we are looking forward to a great time being had by all.

FWIW, two other local troops are going down this weekend as well, but they are taking "guided" tours, whereas we will be renting boats and "guiding" ourselves. This is more of an indicative of the fact that we have been doing this for over 10 years, whereas the other troops are novices with this experience. Still, with Webelos visiting both troops this past week, it looks good that we are not hiring a "guide" to facilitate the experience.

I like to see more states coming on board with this. It's value at promoting scouting is very reasonable.

Florida has been doing this for 15 years. Here is an image of the FL plate:

http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/specialtytags/miscellaneous/boy_scouts_of_america.html

Of course I have one. (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

After reading the above posts, I feel our troop is sort of on the minority. We try to shoot for a return between 2-4 pm at our scout hut, depending upon how far away we camped.

Sunday, scouts wake, prepare breakfast, and then have a morning program (scout skills, continuing of whatever we were doing on Saturday, it varies). Patrols then prepare a no-cook lunch, and break down camp (many scouts have already packed personal gear, only tents and patrol gear remain. After patrol camps are broken down, scouts and Quartermasters (scout QMs) load the trailer, after which scouts don uniform shirts (which are usually kept in leader's cars to remain clean). Then we have a scouts own service, sometimes a Roses and Thorns (if necessary) and we drive home.

Usually we camp within 1-2 hours of home, but this routine may vary if we are traveling further afield, or if inclement weather offers different opportunites to keep gear dry (only the most severe weather leads us to change our departure schedule).

For the record, making Sunday more than just a pack up day has been met by objections on behalf of some parents and even leaders. Now that we have been doing this regularly for 2 years, it has become more accepted and scouts even work to plan good activities for Sunday to make it more fun so they want to stay out. It has become a good troop practice.

We have an extra bonus this weekend, as not only do we have MLK off, but Tuesday is a day off as well (teacher planning day). We are going to Crystal River, FL to swim with the manatees, a 7 hour drive each way. We will leave on Saturday morning and return on Tuesday. Tuesday's schedule is to eat breakfast, pack up, and go home. In instances like this, lunch is at a restaruant (often buffet).(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Be nice about Tates compasses.

I know many people who have them. They are all lost, but that is beside the point.

I guess I have a bit of a different take on this. For the most part, the "10 Essentials" are useless items unless the scout is skilled and experienced in how to use them. For me "Be Prepared" means you have the knowledge to be safe, not just a collection of items which may or may not be of benefit when needed.

I am not knocking the "10 Essentials" list. Only reminding that "Be Prepared" is not an equipment list.

Tampa Turtle,

I had a similar experience. At the camporee this weekend, we had temps down to the mid-40s, with 20+ winds. My tarp was open to the north, so I was on the cool side during the gusts. Just after midnight, I got up and lowered my tarp, which, like you, made all the difference, and I slept soundly til daybreak.

My brush with a pig was different, as it was smoked overnight and was a part of our breakfast. Yummy!

Basementdweller,

I have both a winter and a summer UnderQuilt. My winter is a 20 Incubator from Hammock Gear, weighs only 23 oz and wonderfully warm. My summer UQ is KAQ Jarbridge River custom with 3 oz Climashield. It is a joy to carry at 13 oz, and earlier this month it kept me tosty at 41 (in Florida!). The "summer" quilt is my goto quilt from March to October. It is easy to vent, so even when I found myself at camp this summer with an overnight low of 80, I was just cozy and not too hot all.

But as much as I like my underquilts, it is the topquilts that really have my attention at the moment. I ended up going with Hammock Gear for these as well; their expertice with custom down quilts is unbelievable! I have a 20 Burrow with overstuff (good to about 15) and I am about to order a 40 Burrow (with overstuff good to 35) for the rest of the year. Top Quilts are just so much better than a sleeping bag, an so much lighter. My son will be taking the Summer Burrow to Philmont next summer. It packs to the size of a small cantelope and is only 15 oz. Hard to beat that package.

All of these people, Paul at Arrowhead Equipment, Adam and Jenny at Hammock Gear, and Brandon at Warbonnet Outdoors have a great reputation and pruduce quality gear. Jack and Jack at Jacks R Better are two outstanding individuals as well. It it is always great to work with all these folks.

May I assume you have a Blackbird? I am jealous if you do!

>>>My only complaint is that you must lay out the sleeping bag in just about the perfect position just before you get into the hammock. Once your back is in the hammock, stuff under you, the pad and bag, are pretty much pinned, and it is very difficult to adjust the position of the bag to zip it up or anything else. It makes me not want to answer the call of nature in the middle of the night, thinking about the difficulty of getting everything back into position and laid out "just right".

But that is a small price to pay for the comfort I have in camp and the good nights sleep I get. I use a hammock, and I will never look back.

Oops, double post. (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Thanks for the kind words. In reality, we only backpack 2x a year, but it is very well planned. Webelos cross in February, and we educate them and give them a 9 months of experience. In December, we ususally try to do a warm up hike for the scouts. We leave on Friday evening and come out midday on Sunday. We keep the milage short enough that anyone can make it. Then in January, we try to schedule a longer, 3 night trek. For this, we usually go further afield, and divide the scouts into 2 ability groups. The younger guys will usually keep it under 15 miles while the older ones may do as much as 25. Scouts choose their routes and plan.

First, three good bags out there now are:

1) Campmor/Kelty Cosmic 20 (550 f down), 40 oz on sale for $89.98 (Campmor offers a scout discount!).

2) REI Downtime 20(600 f down), 46 oz on sale for $109.93 (more than the Cosmic 20 but a high quality product)

3) Eureka Silver City 30, 34 oz at Eureka for $59.99 (this is a synthetic kids bag, so it is for the smaller ones)

Second, we encourage scouts to buy smaller packs. If you have a 4500 c.i., a scout will will fill it. Personally I just downsized from a 4800 c.i. pack to one which is closer to 3200, and I am finding that I do not fill it. The Orizaba is 3300 c.i. and is excellent for small guys, as you can strap a pad on the outside (everything else goes in!). Larger than that is not needed.

For adults, I highly recomend an inflatable pad; look at the Pacific Equipment Company Peak Elite AC. If you take the 2/3 length, it weighs only 11 oz (use a cut down 20"x20" foam pad for your feet adding only 1.4 oz). This pad is 2.5" thick and at $60 is a real luxury. Scouts do fine with foam pads, but I encourage them to cut it down to their personal size. For an average 13 year old, this will drop a 14 oz pad down to 9-10 oz. Everything counts.

Ask the scouts to scrutinize every piece of their gear--every little item. Challenge them to come up with lightweight and cheap alternatives. One liter Gatoraid bottles are great for water. Use Aquamira drops or Polar Pure tablets. Compared to a filter which weighs 16 oz, drops weigh 2-3 oz and the tablets less than 1 oz.

Make challenges. The patrol with the lightest average weight gets a xxx prize. Make it fun. Scouts like to have fun and be challenged. Get all the adults in the troop to buy in. This makes a great difference.

Redefine "Be Prepared" as not bringing everything along with you, but practicing your skills so you don't need the extra gear. A lighter pack greatly reduces the risk of an injury!

I have been working hard over the last year to bring my personal weight down. My winter base weight (all gear minus consumables: food, water, fuel) is just below around 14 lbs. So, for a weekend trek, I average 18 or 19 lbs, less if water is plentiful on the route.

Lately, however, I have been working on how to lighten loads with scouts. I am learning a lot from Doug Prosser, who regularly posts on the Backpackinglight Forum. Read a very good article here, and look for more. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list.html

Our troop provides basic tents, which when divided weigh about 3 lbs per scout. We have a session with parents including basic gear lists and "shopping lists" showing good outfitters and recomended gear. My target for scouts if for a "Big 3" (pack, sleeping bag and tent) of 10 lbs. As we proivde tents, we focus on the Sleeping bag and pack.

First the sleeping bag. We look for bargins, and we encourage smaller bags for smaller scouts. Bulk is just as important here. There are several 20-30 bags out there weighting under 3 lbs for roughly $100 or less. If the parents can aquire a good bag which is not too bulky, then a smaller pack is possible, and a smaller pack means lighter weight.

Second are backpacks. There are lots of ultralight packs out there, but we only encourage the high end models for experienced scouts. Not for cost, but for practical loading. For cost, we have found the Alps Mountaineering Orizaba 3300. It weighs in at 3 lbs 9 oz, but with a light sleeping bag and our tents, 10 lbs total here is still possible. And with a scout cost of $71.50 it is a bargin!

Finally, there is gear. We work to limit patrol gear, promote layers of clothing, and most importantly, keep the quantity of personal gear to a bare bones minimum. The true focus we promote with our troop's lighweight backpacking is skill and confidence. With this approach it is not necessary to carry the kitchen sink on campouts. We also work to make meals simple, nutritious, lightweight, and easy to cook with very little gear or mess (Freezer Bag Cooking!).

This approach is new to us, and we are still working out the kinks, but I take the attitude: "Would you rather carry a 40 lb pack, or a 20 lb pack?" And then we let them (the parents and scouts) carry around each weighted backpack. It makes their decision easy for everyone.