Eagle1993

Harford can likely afford $16B plus. They can sell off all of their investments/equity. It is not an offer based upon their resources to pay. BSA could sell off their HA bases and increase their offer. TCC is going to sue JP Morgan over that loan. Chubb will have to make an offer. LCs .. the TCC knows how much they can pay (they already assessed 500+ properties) COs ... who knows ... So ... the TCC and lawyers know what the real ability to pay is and I expect it is well north of the $1.1B offer. The only way this resolves quickly is BSA and insurers and LCs greatly increase their offer. If they don't, get ready to wait years in court. Many of these lawyers have been in this rodeo before. They play the LONG game. They have spent 4 years in court battles in the past over $20M. Do you really think they give up hundreds if not billlions of dollars without a long court battle?

Lets say if you look at the combined total of all insurance contracts they have over the time period and max payout is $10B. Then $650M is a steal for them. Insurance payouts are not based on the operating income of the insurance company. Just look at AIG. They owe what they owe. If they go bankrupt, then they will have to determine how much they have to pay during their own Chapter 11.

Very, very difficult to determine. National & LCs each had their own insurance policies that vary by time period. In addition, each of those may have some sort of limit of coverage. You have to piece together 100s if not 1000s of insurance contracts to see the total amount and then compare that to how many claimants there are within that time frame against that policy.

Kosnoff's team dug into this a bit and they believe that Harford is able to get the $650M from Warren Buffet's reinsurance company (so essentially they can settle with almost no impact to their bottom line). He is spending a ton of time ripping the various insurance companies (and their families). I think the $650M really touched a nerve as most plaintiff lawyers probably know deep down BSA has limited unrestricted assets (they will argue how much, but it is not $5 - $10B). The various insurance companies; however, do have some deep pockets and will borrow to stay out of bankruptcy ... so seeing $650M when the expectation is (as you said) 10 times that really got them upset. I wonder if BSA thought the Harford agreement would help their cause ... it looks like it hurt.

So ... um, here is an official response to BSA's & Harford's offer. If you don't want to read it ... the Cliff Notes ... "BSA can pound sand." https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/887735_2672.pdf

I think the one thing all of us need to remember is that what is said in public (even in court submissions) could simply be negotiation tactics. For example, National BSA may know that Sea Base, for example, will easily be lost if challenged. They would never admit that in their submissions as it can be a traded off during negotiations if included in the final settlement. Same with some of the submissions from lawyers. Kosnoff and others likely know the council assets wouldn't really go to National if National goes Chapter 7 ... but they push that message to perhaps scare up more dollars from the Ad Hoc Committee. We are talking billions of dollars at stake. BSA + Insurance offer so far stands at ~$1.1B. It is very likely it will end up larger. It would be one of the largest payouts in the last 5 years in any case in the USA and likely the largest sex abuse settlement ever. I expect a lot of what we see is scripted to try and influence the final outcome.

I completely agree and it seems like a far fetched plan. In fact, I think National BSA could change the bylaws before entering Chapter 7; however, it has been submitted by several lawyers as their theory to the court. That said, these along with arguments over restricted/non restricted assets are the types of things the court needs to rule on before any agreement is likely to be reached. Unless the BSA just gives up and turns over everything, I highly doubt claimants will approve the plan (without exhausting their efforts in court).

A council pitch I saw (when they explained their camp sale) stated 100% of Friends of Scouting money are restricted assets and cannot be used for the settlement. Now, that is what is being pitched by a council, not sure if it will hold up in a court of law.

Boys & Girls Club is definitely a big target. https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/sexual-assault-abuse/boys-girls-clubs-of-america-sexual-assault-class-action-lawsuit USA gymnastics already field bankruptcy a year before BSA and is struggling to emerge. GSUSA is also being targeted .. "The Boy Scouts are a magnet for men who are looking for sexual relationships with young boys, and the Girl Scouts are just as dangerous for young girls" https://www.stopsexualabusenow.com/services/sexual-abuse/community-leader-sexual-abuse/girl-scout-sexual-abuse Pick a youth organization and I expect there are lawyers out there looking to sue.

The issue with the toggle plan is that there are multiple lawyers filing documents with the court that they plan to have their clients reject all plans until the BSA includes a Chapter 7 proposal that includes 100% of assets from local councils. Their theory is that since in the charter agreement if a charter is not renewed, 100% of the council assets are returned to National. Therefore, if National goes Chapter 7, all councils will have to return their assets to National (as there is no National to renew their charters). So ... at that point, a Chapter 7 of National would be essentially a Chapter 7 of the entire BSA. Now ... the judge needs to rule on the LCs and if they are fully independent even if National doesn't exist. If she rules along those lines + rules on the HA bases (including Arrow WV) then I think we can finally start making progress. I'm frustrated as I don't even see that on the docket. Why is there no push to make these rulings? In the mean time, the BSA is funding tax attorneys for our executives at $2K per month. Sure, not a big $ amount, but all of these lawyer fees are bleeding BSA to death. After spending >>$100M on lawyers, we are 14 months in and there has been no major decisions. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/887323_2654.pdf

This was essentially what I decided to do. My last PLC I listed out a bunch of ideas (both BSA and non BSA) and various adventures. Mountains in Africa to canoeing in Wisconsin. I told them to look at these and go research some on their own. Then, come to the next PLC with their ideas. If they pick Sea Base and sailing ... fine .. now, I wouldn't recommend that we go with Sea Base, but we can then look for outfitters that provide similar services. A lot of good ideas in these posts (and in Scouter.com).

Ok ... I think I split off the separate topic correctly. Apologizes if I caught a couple of on topic remarks. You can find the new topic below.

I'm going to lock this for a short bit while I move some of the this to a new topic. The comments back and forth are fine, just straying pretty far from the bankruptcy discussion. Will unlock shortly.

https://childusa.org/law/montana/sex-abuse-sol/ Civil lawsuits must by filed by 27 years old. So, the question is how many sex abuse victims are under 27 that were abused within the Montana Council. Now the issue is, if there is even 1 case, that could cost the council a ton of money (one Oregon case cost $20M). It doesn't take many cases like that to bankrupt a council. The other question is if the endowment is a restricted asset. That would factor in even if they had enough cases to bankrupt the council. Too many unknowns, but for now, I would think it is relatively safe.

https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/us/business-news/boy-scouts-bankruptcy-plan-includes-new-insurance-estimate-252348.aspx James Stang, an attorney representing the official torts claimants committee, which is charged with acting as a fiduciary in the bankruptcy case for all abuse victims, said the BSA’s valuation estimates seriously downplay the liability exposure of insurers. “We think that is so understated it’s not even funny,” he said, adding that the TCC remains committed to a global resolution. “... Based on our review as of this moment, the plan is not satisfactory to us, but we continue to work toward one that will treat people fairly.”

That is true in general, but the Larry Nassar case should raise a ton of questions for parents of kids in sports. I think rec sports are safe because, as you said, kids are all together out in the open with coaches. Travel teams have a lot more interactions (overnight lodging, one on one coaching sessions, physical trainers, etc.). I wonder if they have the correct protections in place to prevent abuse.

I do wish the BSA was working more directly with the TCC, but I see this as BSA attempting to get all of the payers (LCs, insurance companies, COs and National) to pull together a settlement offer. On the other side of this is really the TCC & FCR who are likely working on detailed expectations of what they think the National BSA, LCs, COs and insurance companies should pay. This will be a negotiation back & forth. I'm just happy to see that we have finally seen an offer from the insurance companies (understanding it probably isn't high enough for an agreement yet). The reddit thread below describes the current status of the offer pretty well. I do question the author's statement that BSA is working directly with sub groups within the TCC (especially Kosnoff). Kosnoff was shocked (and not necessarily happy) about the Insurance offer so I'm not sure if he has really been involved with BSA discussions. While I am still hoping for an overall settlement that covers all parties, I'm pessimistic it can happen. I think we should be prepared for a decade of lawsuits within various aspects of the BSA (LCs, COs and insurance companies).

We have an ASM who has stayed on well past his kids aging out. I can’t imagine the Troop without him. He provides scouts (and adults) great guidance. Any time I suggest a change he is supportive (even if it differs from how he ran the Troop). I know he will leave at some point, and that will be a bittersweet day.

Good question. It looks like this is 1 of 2 major insurance groups for both National & LCs. I'm not sure if this only applies if the claimants go for the primary plan. Insurer Hartford to pay $650 million for claims linked to Boy Scouts of America sex abuse cases | WTVB | 1590 AM · 95.5 FM | The Voice of Branch County (wtvbam.com)

That seems like a pretty big step forward. It brings the settlement trust to $1.2B+.

My Troop has two crews headed to Philmont this year, and we are considering HA options for 2022 and 2023. Given the risks in bankruptcy, I think we should be looking at non BSA properties (just to be safe). We have gone to BWCA, kayaked to Apostle Islands and canoed in the Wisconsin River as our non BSA owned high adventure trips in the past. Do you have other recommendations? I've pieced together some from past postings but thought I would see if there are ideas I am missing.

Looks like it may be stripped out when texting photos unless they used iMessage.

Looks like the LDS, BSA and Insurance companies sat around a campfire today and filed their objections to the estimation request in unison. I'm curious if any other church files and objection or if JP Morgan steps into this arena at all. These are all essentially the same (at least as far as I can see). They are asking the court to reject TCC's request to estimate their claim. LDS objection https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/886539_2610.pdf BSA's objection https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/886555_2612.pdf Various Insurance Companies Objection https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/886551_2611.pdf Another group of Insurance Companies Objection https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/886563_2613.pdf Another Insurance Companies Objection https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/886565_2614.pdf

LDS Church with a strong message to the court ... stop the estimation request from the TCC. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/886539_2610.pdf This document is less than 20 pages so a fairly quick read. It appears the LDS Church is heavily involved in the mediation process but has not yet agreed to any contribution to the Settlement Trust. They raise a lot of objections to the estimation process as it would essentially pull in non Debtors (COs & LCs) into a bankruptcy they are not required to be part of (as they did not file Chapter 11). They believe a true/faire estimation process would take several years of discovery and weeks of trials followed by time for the decision and appeals (in other words, not within the timeframe of the bankruptcy). These are my takeaways, I'm sure you have others. I found the small peaks into the mediation process interesting (LDS is involved and they are helping to provide information to the mediators).

I actually agree with you that in the BSA today, the CO is the organization responsible for the unit and they should be vetting leaders. They should be interviewing them, ensuring they are trained, etc. However, I expect that rarely happens. The problem is that many COs are barely present. In my area, 40% of COs are churches, 22% are PTOs (PTOs have been dropping units left/right), 20% are fraternal groups, 10% are "Friends of...", 8% are odd balls (barber shop, doctor's office, fire station, etc.). Many units struggle to find their COR to approve the adult leader application and recharter let alone taking a more active role. If BSA starts saying COs need their own YPT and more vetting, I expect the 60% non church COs in my area to drop units nearly immediately and many churches may follow. I know in my case, the CO has no building (so cannot provide a meeting space) and the COR has been pretty much non existent the last 4-5 years. We go through a new COR & IH every year ... no consistency or involvement. This year, we actually have a COR that is long time member of the CO and seems somewhat interested ... but is still fairly absent. The CO model may be collapsing and COs are looking for less responsibility not more (the New Orleans' Catholic units are the recent example). BSA will likely have to shoulder more responsibility going forward and admit the CO oversight is failing in most (not all) cases.