HashTagScouts
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Posts posted by HashTagScouts
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7 minutes ago, Baseballfan said:
So, I'm looking for ideas on flying a flag to be given at an ECoH. Is it possible to fly a flag over Gilwell (British or American) for this purpose? Does anyone have any other unique ideas?
Your state senator or representative's office can assist with having a flag flown over the Capitol, and an accompanying certificate, sent to the Eagle Scout. Most charge a feee for it, and many allow you to submit the request through their website.
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2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:
Its my understanding that a unit should not solicit donations from businesses that would directly benefit the unit. Is that correct?
I am planning a bicycle rodeo that will serve to promote safety and skills. This started out just for the pack, but I have contacted the local PD for their assistance to make this more of a community event that will benefit everyone. Would it be proper to solicit donations of stuff like helmets as a giveaway items?
For me, so long as you are following the same principles that Council fundraising would, you shouldn't feel you are "in the wrong". Don't give any impression that the BSA (or the unit) is endorsing a particular product, and do not have them any type of a "raffle" giveaway. You could have a "sweepstakes", where it doesn't cost money to enter the drawing, or you could have them as auction items- provided the donor is on board with all proceeds going to the unit. We have done things like this in the past.
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13 hours ago, Chris1 said:
I am not trying to start a fight, but just out of curiosity, which method(s) do you feel don't apply to or work for girls??
Adult Association?? Advancement?? Ideals?? Leadership Development??? Outdoor Program?? Patrol Method?? Personal Growth?? Uniform???
I don't want to argue about this, I just am interested in your perspective.
1 hour ago, blw2 said:I think that I generally lean towards agreement with Latin Scots Point. If you were asking me this question, I'd agree with qwazse about the uniform.
The program format, being originally based as an outdoor program using things like patrols, uniforms, rank advancement are all rooted in military focus....more naturally boy focused. Stereotype? sure it is.... are there exceptions? you bet! But I feel like it's a safe bet that more boys than girls are typically drawn or are inclined to play "army", spy, indian tracker, woodcraft skills, getting dirty, and the like. This is all the root of how it started based on what I've read. BP wrote a book for military scouts, then somehow discovered that groups of boys were playing in the woods using some of it...so he wrote another book aimed more to a boy...using the natural draw of a boy to do these things. At least that has been my understadning after having read some of BP's writings
On the other hand, girls generally (or stereo typically) aren't so into wearing military uniforms, caring about rank, and such...which is kinda the core of the primary method...and as they get older... the age of scouting's focus.... they are much more getting into 'looks' and style, keeping clean.
What is the method of scouting? I look at the overall method of scouting is "The Patrol Method". All those other things you mentioned aren't really the method so much, or at least not the primary one in my thinking. I think some of those are more like tools to use in working toward the aims of scouting (adult association, uniform, advancement maybe), or some such as ideals and personal growth fall more in line as parts of the aim of scouting...building character and all of that.
The Patrol Method is the means by which leadership development and personal growth are intended to be instilled. The Outdoor Program can be viewed as an extension of how the Patrol Method gets realized. This article is older, but still has some relevant items to learn from: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/09/05/patrol-method/
If you think about any of the "extensions" of Scouting- the OA, NYLT, even Wood Badge- they are organized around a patrol concept. There's no doubt why so many threads here express frustrations on why units aren't making it a priority, or lamenting on changes that are making it more difficult to unfold, and that is because it is how BP himself saw as the program, no matter in which country scouting was in, and the Girl Guide program he championed was to be the same too.
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4 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:
Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out Get out
There is NOTHING to excuse the behavior of abusive leadership, and your FIRST priority is getting your child away from them. The fun activities he may miss, the cost of the trip for which you paid - none of that matters more than his security. Discontinue your relationship with that troop immediately upon his return. I am grateful you know of other troops nearby; many families don't have that easy an option. But that troop is a TRAINWRECK. Uniforms cannot be required at Boards of Review. No leader has a right to justify foul language to children. No adult has any right to degrade, insult, or demean a child, nor his parents for that matter. The catastrophe that is that troop needs to end immediately. Make the calls, take action, and get your son out.
Learning from our trials is essential, but learning how to get out of them when we can is just as important.
Absolutely run. There is a lot wrong here. Being properly uniformed, especially for a BOR, isn't a terrible idea- but, the youth is not going for Eagle yet, so use it as a teaching moment rather than ridiculing him or degrading him. Get him out, give him a few weeks to let his feelings about that troop dissipate and then start making a list with him about what are the things he would want to see in a troop. That would be helpful for him to "interview" the other units and see which is the best fit for him. Best of luck to him (and you).
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1 minute ago, David CO said:
Does the rule only apply to meetings with youth members, or does it also apply to meetings with adult leaders under age 21? Do we need to have 2 adult leaders over 21 when meeting with an 18 year old ASM? Do we need to have an adult female leader over age 21 when we meet with a female ASM under age 21?
Don't you feel like someone should be putting together a grid by this point? (*AHEM* National, anyone paying attention?)
Scenario Does age 21 requirement apply (YES/NO) -
22 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:
Or do MBCs get a pass under the personal-conference clause:
So, if it's a "meeting" with a MBC then two over 21 registered adults are required. But, if it's a personal conference then you only need someone with "knowledge" of why the meeting is happening and be "in view of other adults and/or youth." The latter would suggest a MBC could counsel a scout at the local library as long as the librarian knows why you're there and can see you both.
This is why I love BSA communications so much
They list out examples under the other two bullets to give context, but for the first one, they leave it entirely for the reader to interpret!
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I'll throw this out for discussion around the campfire- what does this mean for Merit Badge Counselors? Are they now supposed to have to registered leaders age 21+ present with them whenever they are meeting with a scout (assuming that the MBC isn't also registered as an adult leader and are 21+ themselves)?
And I roll this out for you too- are MBCs considered "adult leaders"? I can't say there is anything definitive in any guidelines that would indicate a resounding yes on that. Registered adult, yes- registered leader, no. SM/ASM, COR and TC are registered leaders in my mind. I am seeing that push from units as a means of getting adults "registered" to meet these guidelines, without having to have them pay fees.
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5 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:
Can you explain that? Apparently I haven't been paying close enough attention recently... including to some of things posted in this forum, it would appear.
The new G2SS (the October 2018 version) states that two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, which includes any "meeting". The guidelines we operate under today where YPT is required, only one of the adults needs to be 21 or over.
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Just now, WonderBoy said:
18-20 year old ASMs are about to effectively become JASMs... except they can't be by themselves around youth under 18. Sigh...
And I am sure I am not alone with the difficulty today of trying to get the 18-20 year olds to understand they can't just go and "hang" with their buds from the troop who are still under 18. Now we'll have the additional challenge that they can't go and hang with just another 18-20 year old present, they need to have the old timers there too.
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1 hour ago, Kryten said:
but it will.
i have a small troop
where am i to get the all the adult leaders from to make it work? i can no longer use the 18 to 20 ASM'S . (no longer count for 2 deep leadership)
most patrol activities and meetings happen during the week when leaders are working.
i
That is one of my other concerns- are we now going to see more youth age out and not stick around, feeling they are no longer a scout, but also now not a scouter...
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34 minutes ago, qwazse said:
Hey, as long as "nearby" can be at the other end of an eight mile trail, we're in agreement.
4 minutes ago, MattR said:I would not have a problem with that at all. I also know that if I talked to my DE (he is one of the good ones) he'd encourage it.
The problem, as I see it, has two parts. The first is a really vague description of what is allowed. The second is that parents interpret it to mean the scouts can't ever be on their own. I do understand where it's coming from. Vague used to be fine because all kids did things on their own. And I have no doubt that there were times when they got into trouble. No doubt because I got into trouble. The glue that can hold things together is good training. Again, none of this is mentioned. So it can still work.
<moderator hat> The only solution is to get more adults reading this forum. </moderator hat>
I am in agreement to that- what I want, and @MattR is getting there, is some true, honest-to-goodness-in-writing documentation of it in a handbook, training module, etc. so that we have something to point to so that the helicopters can be instructed and know when to buzz off.
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18 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:
Well, I guess that's where each troop is different. For mine, I have enough ASM and CM's that are registered and trained, that we could support 4 different patrols on the same weekend.
Unfortunately, even my experience as a Scout in the 90's, we never did Patrol only activities. We camped and did all events as a Troop. I cannot say if that was a Leadership controlling issue, or just a inexperience issue on the PM side.
Now fast forward to my sons troop. I have encourage him and his Patrol to do Patrol only events. I have entire patrol waiting to do a hike with compass, that the rest of the troop can't seem to agree on.
I can understand your point, but like all others, we will have to either adapt our ways, or step aside for someone that will.
The issue of adapting is the issue. BP himself said "The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method.”
Another one of his great quotes "In Scouting, a boy is encouraged to educate himself instead of being instructed."
I understand exactly what @qwazse and @Oldscout448 are getting at- at what point is Scouting no longer Scouting. Put aside any bias anyone has about allowing girls into the troop program, if you change the PM as a whole it no longer is Scouting, straight from the words of the man who founded Scouting. We can't be a society that laments that kids don't go out of doors and play anymore, and don't socialize beyond digital communication, and yet now coddle and feel we need to be with them 100% of the time. The world can absolutely be a cruel place- a lesson we adults all had to learn, and sheltering youth isn't going to make that reality go away. You just need to teach them properly and equip them with the tools the best you can.
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Recognition does not necessarily mean "getting the bling", it simply means getting the recognition. Nothing as you describe prevents the scout continuing on their advancement track- the date recorded for their advancement record is the date earned, not when they get their patch. Our troop has a formal COH 3 times a year. Rank patches are granted typically the night the scout ahs their BOR- if we have one on hand. Merit badge cards are also typically handed out the night that the advancement team records it, and the patch comes at the next COH. Bear in mind though that for a troop to obtain rank or merit badge patches, the advancement coordinator has to have the records updated and pushed to the council office to be able to purchase them at the council trading post or a scout shop.
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On 01/17/2018 at 10:26 AM, Back Pack said:
I am in Venturing and this is still true. I can wear my Eagle patch until 21 on this uniform. If I wear a Boy Scout shirt as a registered leader or college reserve I can only wear the Eagle knot. If I work at a council camp and am not a Venturer I can only wear the knot since only registered Venturers (boys) can wear the Eagle patch. I can wear the Eagle neckerchief with any uniform.
I have never seen any camp that actually encourages staff to wear any type of insignia. Some tolerate that staff are going to wear their "everyday" Class A, but many have specific rules that they want staff wearing a Class A outfitted just for camp. My son is 15 and on staff, and he doesn't ear any patches to indicate his Eagle rank, troop position, or even troop numerals. As he is an "out-of-council" staff member, he can't wear his OA lodge flap either, as he is not part of the "home lodge". for that council, staff is staff, it isn't about their personal accomplishments outside of being staff.
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3 minutes ago, FireStone said:
I didn't think I was putting anything down, this is just my assessment of a cost comparison to what we most often get compared to, which is sports.
Scouting is often viewed as the more costly activity, which I think is unfair being that we're a year-round activity. I'm not pitting anything against anything else. I just get tired of hearing about how expensive Scouting is, meanwhile families are doing other things that I believe are actually more expensive on a cost-per-month basis.
4 hours ago, David CO said:I really wish you guys would stop putting down athletics. My CO has always made an effort to have the athletes and scouts all treat each other with respect. They even have a combined awards night that includes both athletics and scouting.
But if you insist on bashing sports, you should at least get your facts straight. I was the administrator for both the sports teams and the scout troop. I know that your lopsided comparisons of the costs/benefits of scouting and athletics don't really add up.
We should focus our efforts on making all extra-curricular activities more affordable to low income families. We shouldn't be pitting one activity against another.
I wasn't intending any bashing either. Like @FireStone I often hear the comments that 'Scouting is expensive"- but like any organized activity, there is going to be costs and the cost of a full year, all-in scouting experience doesn't feel too overly inflated when compared to what many parents are willing to spend for athletics. For a 12 year old playing town soccer, for example, it may only cost $100 per season, but if playing two seasons, plus cost for cleats, uniform, that might be another $100. Then, if the kid wants to go to a weekend soccer camp, that might be another $150. Play on a club team as well, there is another $300. It does add up, and I don't think many parents do the math to annualize what they are spending.
As others pointed out, scouting gets more expensive if you are throwing in HA activities, NYLT weeks, OA weekends, etc., but those are not going to be what every scout does.
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17 minutes ago, ParkMan said:
It's funny how council's do this different ways. Usage of our council's camps are still free. It's a nice benefit.
FWIW - the OP's budget largely matches the personal spending in our troop too.
Our council camps are "free" for weekend tenting, cabins cost $. And it is "free", as they charge each scout an annual service fee added onto the national fees. It is intended to drive incentive to use the camps for weekend campouts, but then you are somewhat enslaved by fitting your schedule around district camporees, OA weekends, cub weekends, chuckwagons, etc. I'm also not a fan that the council camps restrict using facilities (the ranges and waterfront, for example, are not permissible to be used even if you bring the trained personnel that should allow you use of them). Heck, they don't even want us fishing there. There's probably another thread for another day here- does your council have programming available to you in their camps outside of summer camp weeks?
Due to the limitations of what we can do in the council camps, we are generally wiling to pay to use a neighboring council camp or go a non-scout camp route to give the kids what they need for the program they are planning.
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State and local parks can be an option. It all depends on your location. In Massachusetts, you often are not going to find more than a very small number of state parks allowing free camping, and there can be restrictions on the seasonality of when you can use them. Group sites at state parks can be relatively reasonable, but comparable in price to most scout camps. There are some local parks in MA that do allow scouts permits to camp, some take a bit more lead time to reserve than others. There also private trusts that manage conservation land that may allow you use for short-term, weekend camping, and may only require a few service hours as a "fee". Again, not sure about specifics in your location, but some web searches can get you started on identifying some options.
Also look into US Army Corps of Engineers properties that might be in your area. Some of their facilities have official campgrounds, others may not, but may allow scout units to camp - some even have designated "Scout Areas". If you contact the rangers for the facility, they can tell you if it is an option or not. They may have a small nominal fee, but my experience is that most will just ask you to do some light service work (picking up trash around some of the more heavily used trails, for example).
https://www.recreation.gov/campgroundDirectoryListByAgencyID.do?contractCode=NRSO&agencyID=70902
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The number Qwaze gives is about the same for what we say to an interested parent- it costs' about $1,200 for a kid to be in scouting. However, that does not necessarily mean it is all on the parent for that amount. With troop fundraisers, monthly camping fees and some equipment can come from troop funds rather than the parents pocket. Our troop covers the monthly camping fees and some of our equipment from the 1 annual fundraiser the scouts do, monthly dues basically covers the costs of advancement materials (rank patches, merit badge patches, etc.), and the adult fundraisers provide campership funds and bigger picture equipment purchases/repair costs and food for our annual dinner. Starting out, yes, your founders are going to bear more cost than say those entering 3-4 years from now.
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31 minutes ago, mashmaster said:
Y'all think I only think of Eagle or Gold award being the point. I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that I would like to see consistent rubric for these projects rather than complete randomness even in the same council. That was the point of this thread, not the complain about me thread.
I agree that attaining Eagle or even the Gold award is not the end goal of scouting, but it is the most quantifiable goal in scouting. Advancement is only one of the methods of scouting, but it shouldn't be discounted as unimportant either. My son is a Star scout and probably won't get to Eagle because he doesn't like scouting. I am not going to push him to get Eagle, but I will push him to work on leadership skills and other life skills outside of scouting in school, swimming, working.... I think skills he has learned while scouting have really helped get to be a leader and those have nothing to do with what rank he is. I know plenty of scouts with higher ranks that haven't learned how to be a leader and care about anything other than himself.
I am very aware that attaining the rank of Eagle isn't the end, and the Eagle charge implies a life long aspect to it. I talk about this with potential Eagle candidate during their BOR all the time. I am not a newbie scout parent that only thinks of Eagle (You must be confusing me with someone else). As Mike Rowe would say, he has way more respect for his brother that isn't an Eagle but saved someones life than himself being an Eagle.
I intend no offense at all Mash. Yes, these awards are often what the John/Jane Q Public think of when they think of a "Scout". There's been other threads here that have discussed it, and I take the side that the BSA hasn't done itself any favors by placing too much emphasis on the Eagle award.
I fully, truly agree with you that clear delineation and consistent process is helpful, as it is really the best way to measure how the kid handled themselves. We like to say the "adversity" is helpful in teaching that things can go wrong in life, and how you plow through it is good teaching, but I say that isn't what the project is intended to teach. The process here has devolved to just an email with the Eagle project proposal, and then approval or questions back by email. to me that is BS. The kid should be meeting with someone, talking about why they chose their project, what do they hope to accomplish personally from it, etc. And, ideally, that person they are meeting with (DE, District Advancement Coordinator, whatever) is taking notes, and those notes make their way to the kids Eagle BOR. Can you accomplish that by email? Sure, I think you can, but in a society that is ever increasingly communicating in a virtual digital world, we need to find the few avenues where personal, look-me-in-the-eye communication can occur as the teaching moment, and this is the perfect place for that. When my son was preparing to get his proposal together and start meeting with troop leaders and district leaders, I gave him the encouragement to think back to what he learned in Communication MB, and why that was important for him at that point.
I would think the same should be true for Girl Scouts as much as it is for BSA.
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8 hours ago, mashmaster said:
They should require actual planning and thought IMHO. Spreading mulch or building yet another gagaball pit are just cookie cutter projects that don't need much leadership and planning to complete. If this award is the pinnacle, it should be something that requires the scout to get outside of their comfort zone and lead.
2 hours ago, qwazse said:The medal is not the pinnacle. The pinnacle scouting experience is hiking and camping independently with one's mates. When a scout can be trusted to do that, he/she has arrived.
Service projects are just a way of showing a scout can apply what they've been doing in their troop to help their community.
THIS, 110%! Eagle is not a pinnacle of life. it is the last rank they can possibly earn as a youth, but it is not the measure of whether any kid who has been in Scouting is greater than another. I've seen kids who never made it past First Class that I would choose over plenty of Eagles when it comes to knowledge of life skills and leadership skills learned while a scout. Eagle is not a "graduation"- read the words of the Eagle Charge. Is obtaining the rank of Eagle a great accomplishment? For most, yes it is. For others, their mommy and daddy (and in some cases, their troop leaders) gave them far more help than they should of, at the detriment of that kid truly feeling they accomplished greatness.
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8 hours ago, mashmaster said:
I wish that was the case in my daughters girl scout district. They had a board of women review the project that had to be submitted to their meeting 2 weeks prior to their monthly meeting. They reviewed it and send an email back a week later saying how it was rejected with vague comments like "We want to see more". Her responses to them had to be in writing and they would review it behind closed doors a month later. After 6 months of this, my daughter had other school obligations and was just done with their politics. And her girl scout troop leader pocketed all the money she had raised...... that is another story.
That is similar to the experiences as told to me. One Gold Award recipient, now in her mid 20's, said she began the project outline just shy of her 15th birthday, and didn't get the final 'OK' to actually do her project until she was nearly 16. Another, a gold Award recipient herself, has a 18 year old daughter that finished it up when she was 17 1/2- had a horrible time getting approval, and would get feedback, make a change, resubmit and after several times the feedback basically went back to nearly the original submission. Most of her experiences were over email, which frustrated the mom (her troop leader)- more probably could have been accomplished in a 10 minute sit-down that weeks of emails back and forth.
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4 hours ago, mashmaster said:
I would prefer a solid hard standard for all Gold awards and also make Eagle projects have to hold up to those standards as well. I have sat on a number of Eagle boards and very few projects are really difficult.
1 minute ago, qwazse said:Why should they be hard?
An Eagle project doesn't have to be hard, it just has to demonstrate planning and leadership. There is not any part of the requirements of a project that it must involve fundraising, or that there must be a minimum number of hours involved- despite how many people try to claim that there is, or there should be. There is also nothing explicit in the Gold Award project requirements that would suggest it has to be "a hard project". In my experience, as told to me by a couple Gold Award recipients, the hardest part was getting their local Council to review the project plan so they could actually get started on it.
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22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
IAs for watering down the requirements December 1, 2016, yes they did. I mentioned the Castaway changes as I had to live with them in my house. But I know that one pack's Webelos den was not going to be able to Cross Over as a den in March, until the requirements changed. Everyone, including those whose attendance had been sporadic, was able become Boy Scouts. Sadly we lost 4 of the 9 in less than a year.
Sadly, I have also see several scouts leave when they came from a very active Webelos Den that spent a great deal of time trying to prepare the boys to crossover in February and get to Scout rank as soon as they crossed to the troop. I attribute it to "Scouting fatigue". The Boy Scouts didn't feel very different to them in program, and they didn't see a great deal of value in going to summer camp (spending the whole week without my phone/tablet/gaming system?!?!). By the fall, they leave. And where in the Cubs they could get away with missing every other meeting and every other weekend activity, they can't do that in Boy Scouts and advance as fast as their peers.
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I would not be opposed to them, so long as the troop follows the instructions that the camps give- the camp staff is there to teach the skills, but not to actually "sign off". It is up the troop to validate that the scout learned what they should. Sadly, it is too often the case, our troop included, that the advancement coordinator just takes the report from the end of the week (which is in reality just an attendance report) and credits the scouts, no actual validation is going on.
Denied a court of honor.
in Advancement Resources
Posted
Things can certainly differ, but here in MA, council's have nothing to do with a CoH. It's a troop function, but the way it occurs differs by troop. As others mentioned, some troop have funds to help pay for it, others do not. Some have a group celebration once a year, others leave it to the parents to plan. There also isn't a 100% iron clad Eagle CoH ceremony that must occur- troops have different traditions, etc. for my son, it is tradition in his troop that each Eagle gets their own CoH, the parent plans it, chooses location and makes sure it is booked, pays for whatever refreshments/food will be available. Troop only pays for the award presentation kit.