HashTagScouts

7 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

No, I would think not.

I'm not familiar with how much discretion individual councils have in that regard either.

You can search open DE job postings on nationals website. You won’t see a massive amount of difference in salary from one rural area to another, or one urban area to another. Whenever I hear a unit leader make a snide remark at how well paid staff is, my stomach churns. It takes a special person to leave a corporate job just to go into being a professional Scouter if they are looking at the financials.

Considering our current CSE was in charge of HR for the BSA as his prior job, and there was not drastic change to comp for the DE postition on his promotion, I don’t see it happening now.

I personally would love to go back to the earlier days of the BSA, where the notion of the need for paid staff was a result of challenges of too much having to go to National (the first councils were directed by volunteers, not paid SE’s, and being snail mail was the only way to get chartering done or membership applications processed, the idea was councils could do it in shorter time).

5 hours ago, Jahaza said:

In that case, I'm left not really understanding what you mean by "The lack of actual requirement for anything related to outdoors beyond First Class as well."

But there have never been such requirements other than merit badges, unless you count the brief period when the participation requirement read "While a Life Scout, work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit" 1958-1965.

Many used to actually enforce a minimal measure of what it meant to "serve actively in your troop" in terms of leadership PORs, which by general rule of thumb from my time as a youth was 75% of all troop activities, and campouts were part of that.  I see ever increasing numbers of units that have no minimum criteria, and not so coincidentally have issues of getting older scouts to actually go on campouts.   

I'm sure right now National Supply has  a boatload of debt with all the skorts they've ordered readying for the cub launch and all the new Scouts BSA branded merch they ordered for 2019.

Local camps are council property, and many of them are actually private or public trusts, and not actually owned by BSA or councils.  Both Philmont and Summit are held in trusts as well, so not like BSA could sell that (expenses of operating thee, whole different story).  I have no idea about Seabase or Northern Tier, but assume those are held in trusts or at least there are restrictions that they can't be sold.  The optics of the whole thing are more the damaging part.

A couple other articles:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/boy-scouts-weighs-bankruptcy

https://www.scsun-news.com/story/news/local/new-mexico/2018/12/12/lawsuit-accuses-boy-scouts-negligence-new-mexico-abuse-case/2289026002/

12 hours ago, Jahaza said:

Camping merit badge is still required and so is outdoor cooking (both camp and trail) for the Cooking merit badge.

While some outdoor requirements have gone away since I became an Eagle  in 1999 (like thr option for the more indoor Sustainability instead of the outdoor oriented Environmental Science), Cooking, with its outdoor element, only became required in 2014.

@qwazse beat me to it- a great number of the Eagle scouts I have come to know from recent years had completed Camping/Cooking MB requirements by the time they were Star.   

3 hours ago, Setonfan said:

Always curious when this topic comes up, how National is de-emphasizing adventure-  Maybe it's just me, but with all of the new programs at each of the High Adventure bases, councils doing everything from cave exploring to climbing, whitewater, mountain biking, not to mention pistols, ATV's PWC's, ziplines, etc.  What exactly has National taken out of the program?  Other than sending patrols of boys off on their own for camping (while there are those that say it destroyed the patrol method, frankly, my troop in the 70's didn't allow that, and I haven't found any of my peers who have said their troop or parents were Ok with it either). 

3 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

Having thought about this over the years, and having noticed what you have noticed, I think what happened is that BSA began watering down outdoor-related advancement requirements, particularly in the Tenderfoot through First Class ranks (maybe to encourage more rapid advancement to First Class), began moving away from high-impact camping practices (lots of fun, little thought required) to environmentally friendly practices (more thinking and planning necessary), and began adding safety-related restrictions in the Guide to Safe Scouting.  Together, these shifts created the impression that BSA was taking outdoor fun out of the program.  But I think what was really happening was that BSA was and continues to be encouraging outdoor adventure as much as ever, and providing great venues for it, but offering fewer incentives to Scouts to participate in outdoor adventure (fewer outdoor-related advancement requirements, less pyromaniac and tree-chopping fun) and more dis-incentives to leaders to participate in outdoor adventure (G2SS removing some activities, more training and certifications and approvals and experience and fitness required).  

The lack of actual requirement for anything related to outdoors beyond First Class as well.  Youth of today are growing up in such a different environment, on many levels, and the numbers who are into outdoor activities like hiking, camping, biking, even fishing are smaller in many parts of the US.  Speaking here in MA, the Boy Scout membership numbers are so horribly decreased even in the last 15 years, that council mergers were a necessity to decrease expenses.  And we are not done, there will be even more consolidation to come.  The safety bubble has also contributed  to a lack of actual integrity to programs.  I have posted on the forums a bit about this- my son changed troops because the program he was in was not at all focused on anything "high adventure" related.  Even small things, like the 5 mile hike requirement for Tenderfoot was ignored- "oh, the kids did 3 miles, that is close enough".  My son became an Eagle, and he did absolutely none of the Camping MB requirement #9 activities in that troop- he did the needed requirements tagging along with his Scouting friends and their units.  That's really not something that made him proud, and even less so considering that he saw like 10 other kids become Eagle in his time there that also had never done any of those activities.  That troop is not at all alone, I could say that about 1 out of 4 troops I encounter in this area are on the same path.  The leaders will say "kids in my troop aren't into doing those things", and really, that is perfectly fine.  But, then why are you ignoring they aren't doing them and signing off on rank advancement and MBs? 

I am absolutely certain that there are still many, many folks out there delivering Scouting as it was intended- even in the GSUSA.  But I absolutely fear the things that we discuss here about the GSUSA are already infecting a great deal of our own membership.  And the biggest challenge for the BSA is how do we stop it? 

9 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

BSA has been very explicit in saying that no advancement requirements are being changed to accommodate our new members.  Further, this membership change for Cub Scouts and (what is currently) Boy Scouts was a long time in coming, with decades of controversy and litigation against BSA seeking admission of girls.  The stated reasons for this change now are demand by families for a single organization for their boys and girls, and demand by girls to fully participate in these BSA programs.  While we can't accurately predict what things will be like in fifteen years, my conclusion from the past and recent history of this issue is that any "dumbing down" of any aspect of the program in order to accommodate girls is out of the question, at least for the next few years.  The loudest howls of protest would come from the girls.  I think another effect of admission of girls is that extra care that will be taken to ensure that standards are maintained and advancement is "by the book" -- and that the resulting checking and tightening of advancement practices will also weed out some laxity that has crept into the system.  Additionally, I think that girls in the program will raise the level of competition -- and achievement.  And finally, if BSA is smart in its marketing, it will seek to differentiate BSA even more from GSUSA, and the obvious vehicle for that is the appeal of outdoor adventure to girls.  Look for tweaks to advancement requirements that increase the quantity and variety of outdoor adventure requirements.

I don't believe that "dumbing down" is at all going to be resulting because girls are being admitted- from all that I experience in my area, I feel the dumbing down has already been happening.  I am in agreement to @Eagledad's sentiments that what this organization was perceived at before has changed.  If "it isn't all about the Eagle', BSA would not keep making the point in all this Scouts BSA marketing, it would just be understood and implied by saying that girls are going to have the same opportunities as boys. 

Sentiment I heard from about 8 staff members this summer that are Life scouts- "i want to get my Eagle done before the change".  Here's the thing about all of this for me: it isn't about bashing girls, it isn't about just the past traditions, it isn't about what I or any adult desires- the youth of this organization should be the ones deciding the membership policies, and the name of their organization should they so chose to change it. 

9 minutes ago, Sablanck said:

We dont have a theme and each patrol is given an order of events so that it evenly spreads everyone out.  There is no time limit nor do you have to participate.  I need to go back and copy that YPT information down so I can put it in the leaders guide.  

As a youth I enjoyed camporee be cause I got a patch.

Yours sound better run that what I have experienced.  Ours often have the vibe similar to what others commented - it is expected that every scout will participate in every activity, which just makes it no fun.  if its an activity that some of the kids want to do , they get a lesser experience having to concern themselves with the kids who don't want to do it, etc.  Then again, I think the same people planning these events today are the same ones who were around planning them when I was a kid, which is a problem in and of itself  I get lots of "invitations" at RT that they "need help".  Attended a few meetings for a few events, the same 3 people talked over everyone and did what they wanted anyway, so let it go. 

Even as a youth, and even more now as an adult, I disliked Camporee's being so themed and scheduled that the weekend felt like a day of school.  Go here for 50 minutes, then walk over her for 50 minutes, etc.  I also disliked that adults did all the planning.  Get scouts from around the district/council to come together and plan it.  That might be difficult to do twice a year, so just have one.  And build in plenty of time for the units to be able to "free-form".  Even on a troop campout, you'll have some scouts more jazzed about doing pioneering projects than others, or another group may want to go fishing and others not.  To me, the ideal behind a Camporee is for scouts to mingle with other scouts, make new friends, and see that they are part of a larger body, not be simply moving in a herd with their own unit members.  Similar philosophy on a smaller scale than summer camp really.

Having friends that participate in events with the 501st legion, these things are a lot of setup- and these are not usually events that you can setup, pack up, and then setup again the following day.  Many of these individuals bring in movie quality props and sets that take hours to assemble and ready for display.  

Unit leaders do not have the authority to deny a Scout a conference that is necessary for him to meet the requirements for his rank. If a unit leader conference is denied, a Scout—if he believes he has fulfilled all the remaining requirements—may still request a board of review.

The above is the stance of the BSA Guide to Advancement (section 4.2.3.5 Unit Leader Conference).  I can understand the pickle of this situation, as well as the desire of knowing does he truly regret it.  Unfortunately, even having a conversation with him about that can be constituted as his SM conference.  I would say have the discussion with his father, see what Dad is thinking.  Ultimately, the scout can request an Eagle BOR under disputed circumstance (see section 8.0.3.2 Initiating Eagle Scout Board of Review Under Disputed Circumstances), and a denied SM conference or the unit leader(s) not signing the application are grounds for requesting this.  It comes down to your own personal convictions here- I have seen leaders bend because "he's going to get it anyway", but you do have the right to let that be someone else's moral dilemma, not yours.

A 4 mile backpacking trip is really not overly difficult to carry out.  While it's always great to really get the kids into backcountry to experience that, you can do it using your favorite camping spot (ie. your council camp).  Help the kids identify a spot on the route getting to the camp that is two miles out, have them muster there and pack into camp, and then pack out when leaving.  Leave the troop trailer at home, have them carry all the cooking gear they need, etc. and fulfill the Cooking MB requirement at the same trip.

For me, much of the "formal" training that is intended for adults gets into the aims and methods, but the depth is different between "scoutmaster" track and "committee" track.  Both sides should really have understanding of the other IMO.  Then you have IOLS, which I feel is helpful for anyone, regardless of how much experience they have with Scouting.  However, the material for that course is so condensed to fit a weekend, and it is a lot to digest and can be difficult to really implement - what I mean by the hard to implement, is the schedule to at least cover all the material is generally so tight, that when a participant (or several) have questions or want to spend extra time on an area, it can be hard to give that additional time without sacrificing something else.  At the Boy Scout level, one exceptional challenge, aside from asking people to give up their time, is that there are a great number of folks out there that have what I feel is an air of "this is a youth group, let's not make it overly complicated" mentality.  Overcoming that is really the big challenge to me.  Another challenge is the mentality that it really isn't that different from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts, which is so not true.  It should feel different to the youth, as much as the parent, for that transition- it's a "growing up" transition, and that has always been the perception that was intended.  I do feel it incumbent on the SM and Committee Chair (I would love to say COR as well, if you can get them to be involved) to spend time in a formal way to give an overview to each new adult leader.  Even if the person spent 4 years as a Cubmaster, or spent a few years as an ASM in another troop, I feel there should still be this formal sitdown.  I would say structure that training similar to the ILST that we should be using with all Scouts.  Take out the icebreakers and whatnot if you see fit, but truly show the commitment to "youth led" and what that should be meaning for the Scouts is a good start.  If you are the SM or CC, this could feel very repetitive if you are doing this a few times a year, but stay vigilant.  Adults too often go rougue, or don't adjust well if they aren't given the instructions off the bat on what is expected of them (and of everyone else).  In some units, adults may have to wear a few hats, but as much as you can help them to know what their lane is, and how to stay in it, that is better for organizational harmony too.    

The ILST guide from BSA can be found here:https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/ILST FINALS 2011 - Item Number 511-016.pdf

You can also google 'ILST presentation' and find a number of versions that various troops have put together, and adapt as needed.  There also are a number of troops that have put together 'parent handbooks', which can also be a good idea.  In most work environments, you have an employee handbook and a code of conduct you are expected to follow, so why not have these for your unit?

Not implying the Scout did anything wrong, just didn't know the particulars of the young man and his eligibility.  Kudos to him if he is driven, I take nothing away from him on that.

Correct, he can work on most requirements concurrently.  The Cyber Chip is grade specific in how it is structured, not age, so if he is still in 5th grade then the award for 5th grade applies.  I tend to think it should be more about age based, as youth crossover at all sorts of various times, and we should have the material presented as to what is more relevant to the program group they are in.  As Boy Scouts/Scouts BSA should have even more youth run/lead activities, and thus communications, than say Webelos, material in the grade 6-8 is more applicable.  In terms of your son, it may be worthwhile for you and he to talk, and talk to his SM, that the grade 6-8 may be of value to him to earn now.  

Something seems off.  Children can be Scouts if they have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10 years old, OR have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old, OR are age 11 but have not reached age 18.  Assuming the youth meets the above to be eligible at the Boy Scout level, with the fitness requirements, it would be a month between Scout and Tenderfoot, another month between Tenderfoot and Second Class, and another month between Second class and First Class.  Putting aside all the other requirements, especially the # of troop activities, that's a pretty accelerated timeline going on.  Assuming all of this is on the up and up, the requirement for Star is the same as Scout- earn the Cyber Chip appropriate for his grade.  So if he just got Scout in the past 3 months as a 5th grader, and would earn Star before finishing 5th grade, the requirement feels to be met.

29 minutes ago, SR540Beaver said:

So you're going to use the, "if a patrol wants to go play laser tag as a bunch of friends in street clothes, then it isn't Scouts going against the G2SS" defense even when the patrol planned it at a meeting?  OA ceremonialists need to do the honorable thing and follow the national rules rather than go rogue.

I have to agree with @SR540Beaver here.  my son has done these ceremonies for the past two years, and is disappointed in the change.  He's also disappointed in the poor scripts that have been provided as well.  However, he respects that they have been told what they have been told, and his choice is either comply or just don't participate in them at all.  His lodge seems intent on offering the new format, but I doubt he'll volunteer for them.

45 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I guess, I would never expect any of that money to reach the family itself. I would expect the council to use the gift to do some good in the girls' honor.

Around here, if want to support the family, we take our gift straight to them in cash or food or whatever. Or, we would call the funeral home and ask where donations could be made to defray burial costs. Or, we talk to the deacons of the family's church.

Based on the news article, that was kind of what I took this comment to mean:

Steffel claims she learned from Chippewa Valley troop leaders and an area school guidance counselor that the preference out there was for direct donations to the victims’ families.  I couldn't find the GoFundMe page itself.  This article probably had a link at one point, based on the last sentence.  The Council probably had an issue of the wording "You can donate to the Chippewa Falls Girl Scouts and families here." if it wasn't directing through the Council.  https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Local-efforts-to-support-Chippewa-Falls-Girl-Scouts-receive-international-attention-499719131.html

It could be they have an issue with GoFundMe- which I can appreciate the convenience of it, but BSA also discourages using it because GFM takes a cut.  Or, it could be that the vigil itself was not an issue, but this commemorative patch is the issue (if that patch uses GSUSA's logo or name- even with BSA, troops are actually forbidden from putting a fleur-de-lis on a patch of their own creation, though most probably do ignore it).  The whole thing is sad, and while I respect GSUSA having a policy and not wanting to air things out in the press, some type of clarity would do them good here considering the purpose this leader had.  GSUSA stating “If an individual chose to donate to our organization in honor of the impacted troop or girls, those funds are segregated to support our Council’s efforts in delivering the Girl Scout mission to girls in the Western Region of our Council, specifically the Chippewa Valley” is hardly an endorsement that if I sent them $200 for this family that the whole $200, or even any part of it, is going to actually get to them.

The scripts can be found here: https://oa-bsa.org/resources/inductions

As stated in the AoL script: The Presenter may be a Scout from a Troop in field uniform (and sash if a member of the Order of the Arrow), the Cubmaster, or another uniformed Cub Scout leader.

From the Crossover script: The performers dress in field uniform—the summer version with shorts and knee socks is preferred as being more distinctive, but is not required. They wear hiking shoes or boots. Each carries a knapsack or backpack that appears to be full. One carries a compass; one carries a map. Additionally, they may have such things as wooden hiking sticks and/or a patrol flag, a wooden canoe paddle, flashlights, canteens, a bugle, a sleeping bag rolled and strapped to a pack—backpacking and camping items that suggest outdoor adventure. If the ceremony is conducted by an Order of the Arrow lodge or chapter team, it is at the discretion of the lodge chief if the team should wear sashes for the ceremony. At no time should any member of the team wear American Indian costumes.

From the above excerpts, clearly to me the intent here is that these are the scripts that should be used for these ceremonies, regardless of the OA's involvement- yet, they are on the OA website.  I'm sure others will have opinions on that, but my own opinion is that National is controlling what it feels it can have at least some control over- OA lodges- as opposed to the thousands of Pack leaders.

28 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

Absolutely.  The badges (which girl scouts actually historically have called "proficiency badges" not "merit badges") are only part of the picture.   Currently the emphasis from GSUSA seems to be on the "Journeys" rather than the "badges" and in recent years the badges have been rather a periferal part of the national program materials.  For example the girls must do "journeys" as prerequisites for working on the Bronze, Silver, or Gold award.  No badges are required as prerequisites for these awards.

Nevertheless,  the history of the changes to the badge offerings is quite interesting.   Still I wonder how clearcut the Smithsonian's classifications are.   In older days, a sewing related badge for girls would have fallen squarely into the "running a household" category.   Today needlework tends to be more of a hobby than a household necessity.

I was a little curious to methodology as well.  I would place Insect Study into science, not outdoor, for example. 

9 hours ago, Clstlg said:

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum, but I couldn't see a better place for it.

My son failed his Eagle Board of Review last night.  He is devastated and confused.  I was hoping to find some advice and clarity from experienced scouters here.

He was told that he didn't show leadership in his project and to do another project.  Evidently it was only one of the board members who had a problem with his leadership, but there has to be unanimous vote.  Afterwards, one of the other board members looked us in the eye and said, "Appeal".  So, that's what we're doing.

My question is this...how can we show leadership?

His project was long and involved, but only required two people at a time--more bogged the operation down.  So he had members of his troop take turns helping him.  Due to the nature of the project, he did most of the work with his troop members helping.  He had around 9 members rotating with him.  He planned everything, arranged for the rotation, trained the helpers in what was needed (mostly helping him carry equipment, and assisting him), and communicated with the people the project was helping (the city).  He did have his troop members each do what he was doing at least once, while he assisted.

I'm not sure how we can show leadership there, although I can assure that he was doing his best to be a good leader.

My son has been a leader in his troop (senior patrol leader) and has led meetings, planned activities, and camp outs for almost a year.

He would like to be prepared to answer the questions in a way that will be acceptable, do you have any suggestions?

 

Appeal for sure.  Let your son work with his SM on what to say when he gets his opportunity.  The use of "we" here, respectfully, needs to be "he" when he gets that opportunity.  What you lay out on the experience of how he arrived at 2 being the optimal number of workers, how he had to coordinate the rotation, how he gave the training on what was going to be done, is all showing how he planned and lead the project.  My advice is that he needs to hammer all of that home multiple times over when the subject of his project comes up.  Not every EBOR will spend much time on the project, as ultimately, as others have pointed out, by the time he gets to the EBOH the project has been completed.  If your son feels he did that in this BOR, then for the appeal he just needs to focus on being demonstrative (not argumentative) to the appeal group that he tried to provide explanation on all of those points, and that he deserves credit.  In much of anything he would have planned as SPL, it involved setting the plan, recruiting others for the activity, coaching them as needed.  Make sure he gives the clarity that while his workers shadowed him the first time, he empowered them to do it themselves under his watch the second time.  

Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of people in this world that think that leading is synonymous to managing, and they are not truly one and the same.  I have a Masters in Management and Leadership, and I could "talk" your ear off (or give you eye strain reading at least) on the ignorance many have about the distinctions.  Any Google search will bring you a host of articles on the differences, but the short riff is: leadership is about setting the vision and inspiring others to follow, while managing is creating the systems to make it successful.  For any Eagle project, the youth ultimately has to do both, but it's typically far easier for a young person to explain the A to Z on what was done, less so on the why and what could have gone differently aspects.  As a dad whose son made Eagle at 14, please give him my encouragement to keep his chin held high, and just think of this as a setback on his journey, not the end of it.  As his parent, just be prepared that once he gets it, there's going to be the peanut gallery that still ignorantly thinks that he is "too young to be an Eagle", so keep your chin held high as well and be his rock right now.  He WILL get to have that medal soon enough.      

1 hour ago, CodyMiller351 said:

I never said every new Eagle Scout should be prepared to take over as Scoutmaster at age 18, as there is much to learn over time, that is why you have to be at least 21 to be Scoutmaster.  I do think every Eagle Scout should be prepared to become a good adult leader based on experience in leadership and knowledge of how Scouting works.  You do not have to be SPL or even PL to learn and become a good leader.  

I'm with you- my point is that "necessary" depends on the users.  Scoutmaster Basic and OLS- yes, I would agree the syllabus content pretty much someone who was truly engaged as a youth (that is, did just more than "check the boxes") should be able to skip that.  

16 minutes ago, CodyMiller351 said:

I would not say I "already know everything".  I would say that the adult leader training I have already done was completely pointless for me.  I agree "more training never hurt anyone", but training on the same thing over and over which I already know and understand is useless when there are other things to train on. For the "I was an Eagle, so I know how the program runs", shouldn't that be the case.  Shouldn't you learn how to become a adult leader when you are obtaining your Eagle Scout.  Isn't that the point, to develop a boy into a young man and a great leader.  I'm not saying you learn everything you need to (youth protection) but these leadership classes the BSA offer are things I already have learned and utilized throughout my Scouting career.  Like I said in my last sentence of my original post, I said I am perfectly fine with learning more and expanding my knowledge but I am not fine with wasting my time and money going to training sessions that are of little to no use to me.  

Not every Eagle will have served as SPL- heck, not even every Eagle will have served as a PL, or anything more than Troop Librarian- so no, Eagle has not necessarily prepared you for taking over as SM at age 18.  Could you obtain knowledge necessary for being an SM/ASM on your own, without the position-specific training? Yes, you could, but not everyone knows where to begin, and as others have pointed out, your participation can be as much about sharing your perspective than your individual learning outcomes.   

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

None at all because the crews meet outside of patrol time. They are members of two patrols. It's the same as most troops Philmont crews, they only meet to prepare for the activity. 

Barry

It may be idealistic, but I'd love to think that those participating in the "temporary crews" are learning some additional leadership skills that they can take back and use to help at the patrol level.  sort of the same you hope for a kid who works camp staff, NYLT, etc.