HashTagScouts

45 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I guess, I would never expect any of that money to reach the family itself. I would expect the council to use the gift to do some good in the girls' honor.

Around here, if want to support the family, we take our gift straight to them in cash or food or whatever. Or, we would call the funeral home and ask where donations could be made to defray burial costs. Or, we talk to the deacons of the family's church.

Based on the news article, that was kind of what I took this comment to mean:

Steffel claims she learned from Chippewa Valley troop leaders and an area school guidance counselor that the preference out there was for direct donations to the victims’ families.  I couldn't find the GoFundMe page itself.  This article probably had a link at one point, based on the last sentence.  The Council probably had an issue of the wording "You can donate to the Chippewa Falls Girl Scouts and families here." if it wasn't directing through the Council.  https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Local-efforts-to-support-Chippewa-Falls-Girl-Scouts-receive-international-attention-499719131.html

It could be they have an issue with GoFundMe- which I can appreciate the convenience of it, but BSA also discourages using it because GFM takes a cut.  Or, it could be that the vigil itself was not an issue, but this commemorative patch is the issue (if that patch uses GSUSA's logo or name- even with BSA, troops are actually forbidden from putting a fleur-de-lis on a patch of their own creation, though most probably do ignore it).  The whole thing is sad, and while I respect GSUSA having a policy and not wanting to air things out in the press, some type of clarity would do them good here considering the purpose this leader had.  GSUSA stating “If an individual chose to donate to our organization in honor of the impacted troop or girls, those funds are segregated to support our Council’s efforts in delivering the Girl Scout mission to girls in the Western Region of our Council, specifically the Chippewa Valley” is hardly an endorsement that if I sent them $200 for this family that the whole $200, or even any part of it, is going to actually get to them.

The scripts can be found here: https://oa-bsa.org/resources/inductions

As stated in the AoL script: The Presenter may be a Scout from a Troop in field uniform (and sash if a member of the Order of the Arrow), the Cubmaster, or another uniformed Cub Scout leader.

From the Crossover script: The performers dress in field uniform—the summer version with shorts and knee socks is preferred as being more distinctive, but is not required. They wear hiking shoes or boots. Each carries a knapsack or backpack that appears to be full. One carries a compass; one carries a map. Additionally, they may have such things as wooden hiking sticks and/or a patrol flag, a wooden canoe paddle, flashlights, canteens, a bugle, a sleeping bag rolled and strapped to a pack—backpacking and camping items that suggest outdoor adventure. If the ceremony is conducted by an Order of the Arrow lodge or chapter team, it is at the discretion of the lodge chief if the team should wear sashes for the ceremony. At no time should any member of the team wear American Indian costumes.

From the above excerpts, clearly to me the intent here is that these are the scripts that should be used for these ceremonies, regardless of the OA's involvement- yet, they are on the OA website.  I'm sure others will have opinions on that, but my own opinion is that National is controlling what it feels it can have at least some control over- OA lodges- as opposed to the thousands of Pack leaders.

28 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

Absolutely.  The badges (which girl scouts actually historically have called "proficiency badges" not "merit badges") are only part of the picture.   Currently the emphasis from GSUSA seems to be on the "Journeys" rather than the "badges" and in recent years the badges have been rather a periferal part of the national program materials.  For example the girls must do "journeys" as prerequisites for working on the Bronze, Silver, or Gold award.  No badges are required as prerequisites for these awards.

Nevertheless,  the history of the changes to the badge offerings is quite interesting.   Still I wonder how clearcut the Smithsonian's classifications are.   In older days, a sewing related badge for girls would have fallen squarely into the "running a household" category.   Today needlework tends to be more of a hobby than a household necessity.

I was a little curious to methodology as well.  I would place Insect Study into science, not outdoor, for example. 

9 hours ago, Clstlg said:

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum, but I couldn't see a better place for it.

My son failed his Eagle Board of Review last night.  He is devastated and confused.  I was hoping to find some advice and clarity from experienced scouters here.

He was told that he didn't show leadership in his project and to do another project.  Evidently it was only one of the board members who had a problem with his leadership, but there has to be unanimous vote.  Afterwards, one of the other board members looked us in the eye and said, "Appeal".  So, that's what we're doing.

My question is this...how can we show leadership?

His project was long and involved, but only required two people at a time--more bogged the operation down.  So he had members of his troop take turns helping him.  Due to the nature of the project, he did most of the work with his troop members helping.  He had around 9 members rotating with him.  He planned everything, arranged for the rotation, trained the helpers in what was needed (mostly helping him carry equipment, and assisting him), and communicated with the people the project was helping (the city).  He did have his troop members each do what he was doing at least once, while he assisted.

I'm not sure how we can show leadership there, although I can assure that he was doing his best to be a good leader.

My son has been a leader in his troop (senior patrol leader) and has led meetings, planned activities, and camp outs for almost a year.

He would like to be prepared to answer the questions in a way that will be acceptable, do you have any suggestions?

 

Appeal for sure.  Let your son work with his SM on what to say when he gets his opportunity.  The use of "we" here, respectfully, needs to be "he" when he gets that opportunity.  What you lay out on the experience of how he arrived at 2 being the optimal number of workers, how he had to coordinate the rotation, how he gave the training on what was going to be done, is all showing how he planned and lead the project.  My advice is that he needs to hammer all of that home multiple times over when the subject of his project comes up.  Not every EBOR will spend much time on the project, as ultimately, as others have pointed out, by the time he gets to the EBOH the project has been completed.  If your son feels he did that in this BOR, then for the appeal he just needs to focus on being demonstrative (not argumentative) to the appeal group that he tried to provide explanation on all of those points, and that he deserves credit.  In much of anything he would have planned as SPL, it involved setting the plan, recruiting others for the activity, coaching them as needed.  Make sure he gives the clarity that while his workers shadowed him the first time, he empowered them to do it themselves under his watch the second time.  

Unfortunately, there are a whole lot of people in this world that think that leading is synonymous to managing, and they are not truly one and the same.  I have a Masters in Management and Leadership, and I could "talk" your ear off (or give you eye strain reading at least) on the ignorance many have about the distinctions.  Any Google search will bring you a host of articles on the differences, but the short riff is: leadership is about setting the vision and inspiring others to follow, while managing is creating the systems to make it successful.  For any Eagle project, the youth ultimately has to do both, but it's typically far easier for a young person to explain the A to Z on what was done, less so on the why and what could have gone differently aspects.  As a dad whose son made Eagle at 14, please give him my encouragement to keep his chin held high, and just think of this as a setback on his journey, not the end of it.  As his parent, just be prepared that once he gets it, there's going to be the peanut gallery that still ignorantly thinks that he is "too young to be an Eagle", so keep your chin held high as well and be his rock right now.  He WILL get to have that medal soon enough.      

1 hour ago, CodyMiller351 said:

I never said every new Eagle Scout should be prepared to take over as Scoutmaster at age 18, as there is much to learn over time, that is why you have to be at least 21 to be Scoutmaster.  I do think every Eagle Scout should be prepared to become a good adult leader based on experience in leadership and knowledge of how Scouting works.  You do not have to be SPL or even PL to learn and become a good leader.  

I'm with you- my point is that "necessary" depends on the users.  Scoutmaster Basic and OLS- yes, I would agree the syllabus content pretty much someone who was truly engaged as a youth (that is, did just more than "check the boxes") should be able to skip that.  

16 minutes ago, CodyMiller351 said:

I would not say I "already know everything".  I would say that the adult leader training I have already done was completely pointless for me.  I agree "more training never hurt anyone", but training on the same thing over and over which I already know and understand is useless when there are other things to train on. For the "I was an Eagle, so I know how the program runs", shouldn't that be the case.  Shouldn't you learn how to become a adult leader when you are obtaining your Eagle Scout.  Isn't that the point, to develop a boy into a young man and a great leader.  I'm not saying you learn everything you need to (youth protection) but these leadership classes the BSA offer are things I already have learned and utilized throughout my Scouting career.  Like I said in my last sentence of my original post, I said I am perfectly fine with learning more and expanding my knowledge but I am not fine with wasting my time and money going to training sessions that are of little to no use to me.  

Not every Eagle will have served as SPL- heck, not even every Eagle will have served as a PL, or anything more than Troop Librarian- so no, Eagle has not necessarily prepared you for taking over as SM at age 18.  Could you obtain knowledge necessary for being an SM/ASM on your own, without the position-specific training? Yes, you could, but not everyone knows where to begin, and as others have pointed out, your participation can be as much about sharing your perspective than your individual learning outcomes.   

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

None at all because the crews meet outside of patrol time. They are members of two patrols. It's the same as most troops Philmont crews, they only meet to prepare for the activity. 

Barry

It may be idealistic, but I'd love to think that those participating in the "temporary crews" are learning some additional leadership skills that they can take back and use to help at the patrol level.  sort of the same you hope for a kid who works camp staff, NYLT, etc.

Feeling hopeful for you both Hawkwin and Eagle94-1.  My son had some experiences that were similar to yours, and discussions with the SM would become what I would term as "bullish".  My son hates confrontation, and at the first sign that the conversation is turning to being heated, he will bow out.  Personally, I would have been right there giving it back to the SM, but I appreciate my son didn't.  My son stuck it out to finish off his Eagle rank in that troop, and then even ran for a term as SPL- that was his attempt to "be the guy" to try and turn things around as the senior leader.  I was not hugely in favor of him going for SPL, as I saw that it was going to be a breaking point for him when he realized the SM was not going to actually give him control or change anything.  Ultimately, that was what happened, and after even more frustration that every suggestion he gave at the annual planning conference for the next year was immediately critiqued (and downright shot down mostly) by the SM, my son walked away.  That troop was also all about the "friends & family" plan as well, which was a disaster to my view, and my son hated it.  He took the summer to talk to Scouts/Scouters he has befriended from summer camp, OA, etc. and found a troop that he is happy with, and "troop life" became fun again for him.  I am hugely pleased with the fact he is happy, and that he didn't just rest on being an Eagle and walk away from Scouting. 

Letting your kids find themselves and being able to enjoy Scouting is key.  Just instill in them to keep a cheerful attitude, and if youth/adults from the old troop engage them, just wish them well and stay positive.  My son got some negative comments since he left, and I half expected that he would, but I told him that those people were the ones who didn't recognize there was a problem in the first place, so he isn't going to do himself any favors trying to change their attitudes now. 

Experienced the idea of forming a crew out of a troop fail on 3 attempts in 5 years.  Predominantly, the failure was lack of commitment on the part of the adults involved to facilitate it as a crew (ie- get others involved who were not already Scouts), and the makeup was Scouts who were really not interested in doing anything aside from fishing/loafing.  That is to say, it really was nothing more than what these Scouts did in the troop, when they chose to participate. 

At the end of the day, whether it be a Venturing Crew, a Venture Patrol, a Senior Scouts patrol, or whatever name you put to it, unless the youth actually want to do it, it isn't going to work.  You can't prop it up without them taking the leadership reigns to keep it going.  It sounds like you are having the adults trying to figure it out, but you don't have the youth involved.  Start there- ask them what they want.  If they want to just come to troop meetings when they feel like it, then that is all you are going to get out of them.  If they want to just do troop program, and do 1 or 2 campouts apart from the troop a  year, whether they be high adventure or just campouts without the younger kids, then consider if that is what you want to do.  In all respects to the youth, I would say you do need to set the tone that the adults will support them with their program, but there needs to be minimum participation requirements in order to be a part of these older scout activities, or you are not going to get the results you want of having them be resources for the troop.     

28 minutes ago, ASMmom1976 said:

I totally agree that there has been a bunch of great advice, and I really appreciate your idea of using pictures.  My son get very overwhelmed by the concept of speaking and defensing, but I now think that if he can story board the project using photos and art and catch phrases, it will help him navigate his anxiety.  one thing I should have made more clear when I wrote what I wrote last night was that the eagle project coordinator did not make it clear that my son needed to have all the details completed cemented to begin the coaching or planning process.  He came with an idea, and a beneficiary and their approval.  My son is only 14.  Yes, he's young.  Too many people in scouting use age as a discriminating factor.  Why is he doing this now? He should wait until he's more mature....etc.  But I have seen the direct affects of what waiting to the last minute to do your eagle project looks like.  Boys rushing to meet a drop dead deadline and their hearts aren't really in it.  As his mother and a scout leader....I want for him and any boy who is ready to start this process to take it on when they are eager to do so.  The younger a scout is and the more challenges they have (in my son's case ADHD and PTSD), the more cheerleading they need.  Thank you for your wisdom and encouragement.

Age is too often used as a discriminating factor. My son was 14, and yes he needed some coaching from me on being more clear on what he means or intends. All I can say is, I have had to do the same with 17 year olds as well.  While you can’t do the presentation for him, you can certainly role play with him and give him guidance through that which would probably be the most invaluable help he will receive throughout this whole project 😀.  

How you have explained the project idea sounds as though it validly is truly a project.  Without knowing explicitly what your son discussed with the coordinator may indeed be the issue.  When formulating the project idea and getting the approval to move ahead, the scout has to be able to explain it with enough detail to show that there is both value to the receiving organization/entity, AND how the scout is going to demonstrate leadership through the project.  Just taking ones own Lego sets and donating them could just be as simple as "here's my giant bin of Lego bricks" - however, explaining that each set has to be catalogued, separated, and missing parts will need to be obtained, and that each set will be put into its own container sounds like project planning to me.  So, this could be more about coaching your son about how to detail and present himself.  While fundraising isn't explicitly a requirement to an Eagle project, that could be an area to discuss with your son- on one hand, how many containers will be needed, what is his best-guess estimate on how much $ may be needed to purchase missing bricks? Adding those general considerations to his proposal might be helpful to the coordinator.  There could also be a "drive" of sorts added to this, such as asking the other members of the troop if they have any sets they wish to donate and include in the cataloguing process (it also can show that your son is going to need to demonstrate leadership by involving others in this effort, which might not have been so explicitly understood from his first round).  

I would definitely help your son to understand that he should not just give up- sometimes you just have to rethink your strategy, which is as others have pointed out part of the process.  Watch any episode of Shark Tank, and you can understand that it can often be how you present an idea and how you can answer questions in defense of it that is what matters to whether you get the deal or not.  This is a capstone to the top rank in Scouting- it shouldn't be the easiest thing you have ever done while a scout, and arguably should require you demonstrating the knowledge you have obtained as a scout.  My son stumbled a little bit with his Eagle coach, and the advice I gave him was to remember that Communication MB is one of the Eagle required badges for a reason, so think and spend twice as much time on how he was going to present his idea than he spent on the actual write up.  I wish your son luck and hope he doesn't give up on it.

http://alaskascoutingadventures.org

http://mainehighadventure.org

I took my training through SOLO. The course was set up by a neighboring council, though my council also uses them (being they are based in New England I would presume).

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/wilderness-first-aid/

Only required by BSA when going to a BSA High Adventure base.  Other camps that have trek programs may require it as well, following the same guidelines.  If you don't expect to be taking your group to any BSA HA, I would still say it's a good idea to have gone through the training, but paying to re-certify every two years may not be necessary.

25 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

(My apologies.  I'm taking your statement out of context.)

I always cringe at this statement.  Ideally, the behavior of all scouts benefit from scouting.  ... BUT ... using a troop to fix the bad behavior of a specific scout will have side effects.

• Drive away existing scouts.   You will lose good kids when choosing to work with the problem scouts.
• Drive away future scouts.  Create a bad reputation for the troop.  "Oh, that troop has scouts that ..."
• Risk infecting other scouts with the same bad behavior.
• Create safety risks.
• Create problems for the adults as they are involving scouts that will put other scouts at risk.

So, I always cringe when I hear that if any kid needs scouting that kid needs scouting.

Fred gives some very sound constructs here to be thinking about.  and i agree with him on the "if any kid needs Scouting..." As much benefit that Scouting can have for a kid from a broken home, or who has issues socializing and benefits from being in a supportive group, the reality is we can only supplement, not replace, parenting these youth.  The very first conversation(s) that need to take place here are with the parents of these other youth, and give the greater context that as a parent you have issue with this happening to your child, especially if it happened in one of their homes.  Then, there is the other issue of these youth being in the same troop as you and your son, and the nature of how these actions inexplicably are going to affect those relationships.  That too can and should be discussed with these parents.  You cannot really remove yourself from being a parent because you are the scoutmaster- being parent comes first, every time, and you need to allow yourself to do that.  Awful situation, and hope in the long run that these kids can understand the significance of what they did and correct that, and that it doesn't have truly lasting effect for your son.

4 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Wait, there are 365 days in a year???

Collectively, the scouts in the unit did 1,000+ nights.

4 hours ago, shortridge said:

I think that there is some confusion as to the rules. The rules require a 21+ female leader present at all activities. The activity is summer camp, not the MB class.

Under your interpretation, all classes or instructional sessions involving female Scouts must have a 21+ female leader present. That is simply impossible in a summer camp environment.

Not necessarily.  I have never seen any summer camp that didn't require each unit to have at least two leaders of their own present.  If your interpretation that summer camp itself is the activity, then all you would need is two adults in total on the property, regardless of the number of units.  In closed door situations, always you should not be the only adult that is left alone with a Scout, and that has always been part of youth protection policy.

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

That says it has to meet BSA resident camp standards. Under those standards, the camp director and program director must be National Camp School-certified. If you’re 10 minutes away from EMS, your health officer has to be at least an EMT or paramedic. You have to have an NCS-certified aquatics director if you do aquatics programs. And more ...

That’s a very high bar for a basic Scout troop.

Do you mind pointing out where?

Except is is the troop SM that signs off that a scout is eligible for the vote.  the local Lodge nor National OA has any idea whether the youth actually did it or not.  Do you think an SM is going invalidate his/her own program?

2 hours ago, shortridge said:

@qwazse, I fully understand that the councils are looking at it as a business decision. But it strikes me as fundamentally out of synch with the aims, methods and values of Scouts BSA. The troops are equal; the leaders are equal; the programs are equal; the Scouts are certainly equal. Why not give them all equal opportunity to attend camp? Why grant boys priority status?

That sends a very negative signal to the new Scouts who will be joining beginning Feb. 1. The messages include:

- Boys are more important than you

- Boys have the power to exclude you

- You have to take the leftovers and castoffs

Are those Scoutlike values and messages?

Does such a thing exist, or are you stuffing a man full of straw?

The aim of the policy change was separate, but equal.  Fully expect that is going to change, and probably in the not so distant future, but right now, that is the policy.  The intent of many camps offering boy only weeks and girl only weeks is so that those units that desired to be same-gender, and not be linked, can have their summer camp program same gender as well.  For some other camps, it may be entirely a matter of facility- not a lot of camps have female showerhouses on the same scale as male showerhouses, for example.

There are also the YPT issues that will be in consideration.  While a number of camps employ female staffers, I would submit that the number of those that are 21+ are a smaller number.  While a great number of activities at camp happen in the outdoors, not all do.  Two female scouts are working on Mammal Study MB and need to use resources inside the nature cabin- your male staffers cannot be alone with them, you need to have a female 21+ present. 

23 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

So what is the purpose of the exception if they are not allowed to serve in youth leadership positions after 18th birthday?

Bingo.  

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

She was an ASM at that point but part of the process.  She is upset because he has been much more active in the Ship than the troop.  Can't fault a kid for being active in scouting IMHO.

I'd tell him to show up at the first troop meeting following Ordeal wearing his sash with a huge grin...

With 11 Scouts total, I'm inclined to agree with the other suggestions here- scale back the level of POR titles.  Rather than a PLC where only say 5 Scouts are meeting to discuss the month ahead, use "patrol corner" at a troop meeting to engage all the Scouts toward a decision.  If you try too hard to fit a certain model, you could be over-complicating.  Assume with 11 Scouts, if you have one patrol and then one PL, what would an SPL be doing that is above and beyond that which the PL is doing? Seems redundant. 

Not knowing anything about this Scout serving as SPL, perhaps part of the issue for him could be the extra meetings that are an issue for him on his time, or that the additional meeting time is making it feel too much like a job rather than a privilege.  I would suggest scaling back to acting as one patrol, having the PL as the lead, with you and the other senior scouts being his confidants as much as possible.    

21 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

 

They have telegraphed what they are planning to do by putting girls in the Boy Scouting program and renaming the program "Scouts BSA".  There will be a push for co-ed troops, because it will be difficult for some troops to get the minimum number of girls that they need (5) in order to start a girl troop.  The argument will be that it isn't "fair" for these girls to not be able to join a troop and pursue Eagle Scout just because they couldn't get enough other girls to join, too.

Scouts BSA will probably have co-ed troops, girl troops, and boy troops (as determined by their charter organization) in about 2-4 years.  Mandatory co-ed troops will take longer (if at all - there isn't as much demand).  As I understand it, Venturing Crews can be all girl, all boy, or co-ed, and people seem to be happy with having these options.

If we take some of the commentary from various persons on the professional side, they cite that coed was happening anyway on the cub side, just not "officially".   It's also happening on the Boy Scout side too, just not "officially".  There are Troops today that charter Crews, and have the Crew right there at each meeting and each event.  Just because you can't give an official transcript for an award doesn't mean the program isn't operating coed.  The only thing that really changes is now you can actually charter the girls earlier than age 14.  My feelings all along is that National was taking a "can't beat 'em, join 'em" stance with this membership change, so don't see how we could be surprised if they don't do the same by just throwing that additional "local option" out there.   The "linked troop" was already a step in the direction of trying to ensure that there are sufficient girl troops ready come spring for any girls ready to come out of Cubs- nothing would make National look worse than negative publicity if even one girl gives a reporter a story about how the BSA got them all amped up only to let them down a year later. 

1 hour ago, Maxwell17 said:

After this camp out he will be ready for his 1st class SMC and BOR.  He will then be looking to get an aproved POR.  He has 17 nights of camping and has 8 MB (4 eagle required).  My original question work itself out last night.  We have an active troop and he's excited about helping the rest of his patrol enjoy as they advance.  I see where some say advancement shouldn't be the main goal and they're right.  He love looking at the requirements and figuring which ones can be done one his trips. 

Advancement not the main goal for sure, but I would give my $.02 that if advancement is being FORCED it isn't what you want, but if your son has figured out when/how to maximize his opportunities, and that leads to advancement say faster than his patrol mates who are not doing so, I have no issue with that.  My son had the same opportunities as his patrol mates, but he is Eagle and a few are just getting to Star.  Not my sons fault at all, he just didn't leave partial MBs for two years, and volunteered with his new SPL every term to help out with whatever was needed.