HashTagScouts

1 hour ago, Maxwell17 said:

After this camp out he will be ready for his 1st class SMC and BOR.  He will then be looking to get an aproved POR.  He has 17 nights of camping and has 8 MB (4 eagle required).  My original question work itself out last night.  We have an active troop and he's excited about helping the rest of his patrol enjoy as they advance.  I see where some say advancement shouldn't be the main goal and they're right.  He love looking at the requirements and figuring which ones can be done one his trips. 

Advancement not the main goal for sure, but I would give my $.02 that if advancement is being FORCED it isn't what you want, but if your son has figured out when/how to maximize his opportunities, and that leads to advancement say faster than his patrol mates who are not doing so, I have no issue with that.  My son had the same opportunities as his patrol mates, but he is Eagle and a few are just getting to Star.  Not my sons fault at all, he just didn't leave partial MBs for two years, and volunteered with his new SPL every term to help out with whatever was needed.

1 hour ago, Thunderbird said:

Grubmaster is a real role in the sense that it is in the Patrol Leader's Handbook.  But like most other patrol positions (Assistant Patrol Leader, Patrol Scribe, Cheermaster, etc.), it does not fulfill the POR requirement for Star, Life, and Eagle.  Patrol Leader is the only patrol position that does qualify as a POR for Star, Life, and Eagle.  It's an important position, though.  After all, somebody's got to do the grocery shopping and cook!  😀

If the youth is also using it as teaching moments - for example, taking the new Scout patrol to the grocery store and showing them how to shop (buying store brand versus name brand to keep budget in check, how to figure out quantity to buy, etc) that becomes an Instructor POR, and does count for rank.

Get a three ring binder and some plastic photo sheets, and start setting up a memory book for him to display at his Eagle COH. You can include photos from events, any newspaper clippings, any leaflets from places visited, as well as wristbands or ticket stubs, etc. 

24 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Hmm, I couldn't. A troop of Boy Scouts in our area camping once a year would be unheard of. It would be embarrassing. 

Barry

Couldn't agree more.  Almost as embarrassing to me as a troop that only car camps.

On ‎06‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 9:46 AM, David CO said:

Not true. 

On ‎06‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:19 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

David, 

As Ben Kenobi once said, "from a certain point of view...." Ms. Avecdo may firmly beleive that the GSUSA does have a "huge emphasis on the outdoors" since 15-20% of their membership will go on at least one overnight camping trip per year according to a GSUSA statement on the topic. So she may feel that 1 weekend a year is a huge outdoor emphasis. I know that one of the reasons why girls quit GSUSA in my areas is the lack of camping.

What I found hilarious was the statement where they said they are experts on the outdoors, then hired The North Face company to create a bunch of new outdoor MBs for them.

 

I could provide you a few examples of Boy Scout troops local to me that only camp once or twice a year, so yeah, it is pretty much about perspective. 

6 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Interesting, I thought I had read somewhere that you could count work in one program toward advancement/awards in another program only if you belong to both programs at the same time (with a few exceptions). But that seems pretty clear.

Then again, it’s at least moderately plausible that BSA has contradicted itself in different places. 

You have to go back further in the guide- they cannot be earned by anyone who is not "qualified" (dual registered, or had previously reached First Class):

7.0.0.1 The Benefits of Merit Badges

There is more to merit badges than simply providing opportunities to learn skills. There is more to them than an introduction to lifetime hobbies, or the inspiration to pursue a career—though these invaluable results occur regularly. It all begins with a Scout’s initial interest and effort in a merit badge subject, followed by a discussion with the unit leader or designated assistant, continues through meetings with a counselor, and culminates in advancement and recognition. It is an uncomplicated process that gives a Scout the confidence achieved through overcoming obstacles. Social skills improve. Self-reliance develops. Examples are set and followed. And fields of study and interest are explored beyond the limits of the school classroom.

4 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Having trained hundreds of Scouters I would say youth experience being a predictor of a quality program is highly overrated.

I have trained some fantastic Eagle Scouts and former Scouts that are an attribute to Scouting, and I have had some that were un-trainable.  The un-trainable one think they know everything, (and are mostly wrong), run units with an iron fist and think the 3 Aims of Scouting are 1. make Eagles, 2. make Eagles, 3. make Eagles.

I would estimate that most of those I have trained had no youth experience. Some gave me cause for concern, but many have approached training with enthusiasm and eager to learn. A good many have gone on to make fine Scouters.

Those that come in willing and eager to lean, want to follow the program and leave knowing that there is still plenty to learn will usually do well. Those that come in thinking they know everything and are determined to put their own personal stamp or brand on their unit usually find themselves in struggling/failing units with a dwindling number of Scouts.

 

@HelpfulTracks good summary. I might only add to your final sentence “or they find themselves in a unit that puts advancement above all else, and produces only more potential future Scouters that just repeat the pattern”.

Eventhe most ardent Scout can forget most of what they learned as a youth, and needs to take training as an adult with an open mind. I still learn things from my fellow trainers at each OLS course I staff. 

11 minutes ago, scotteg83 said:

Merit Badge Counselors are not leaders, so i don't see the age requirement changing.

As others pointed out previous thread on this topic when the new G2SS was released, MBCs are registered on the same application as SM, ASM, TC, and that app does not say anything to contradict that a MBC is a registered leader (the old apps from several years ago used to have a distinct "position" code that I believe was called Active Parent, meaning they were not a leader but would be present at activities (arguably that is also what a MBC often is as well).  

The reality is we just don't have an official word on this.  Can an 18 year old be a MBC? Yes. They often are the MBC of record at summer camps.  Would they need to have registered adults around? If the G2SS is taken literally, we are supposed to uphold the same standards for YPT purposes both in and out of Scouting activities.  A MBC that would have met with a group of Scouts in the past at a coffee shop on a Sunday morning was not really participating in a troop activity, but under these new guidelines it may no longer be acceptable.  I just don't think anyone has the firm answer as of yet.

1 hour ago, LVAllen said:

Let me provide an example. I'm Mormon. My 13 year old son is also part of a community troop, which typically camps out Friday afternoon through Sunday mid-morning. Generally, he will go through Saturday evening. After the campfire, he and I will head home. He makes sure he's on the duty roster plenty on Saturday, so noone can accuse him of bailing on work. 

It's not 100% ideal. On the other hand, these scouts are his friends, and friends support each other, particularly in personal choices.

Plenty- I'd say overwhelming majority- of units already have to accommodate youth that are into sports to either leave early or miss out on weekends.  I see no problem with that.  Effort is what matters, not that the youth is at 100% of everything.  I don't even see how anyone could rationalize that this is a problem towards a POR- isnt' delegation a huge part of "showing leadership"?  The kid is a PL, and had his stuff together, lead through Saturday night and then gave instruction to his APL on Sunday morning needs, he'd get the gold star from me! 

7 hours ago, gblotter said:

I may be wrong, but I think they are referring to Scouting units chartered by the LDS church (CoLDS = Chartering Organization LDS). I think.

Yes  Just trying to be respectful that the church is asking that we not refer to them as LDS or Mormon.

In respect to those who don't agree with the "changes" the CoLDS made to the program as they administer it, I would submit that one should be careful when generalizing.  I am being very transparently objective when I say that conservatively 50% of the troops in my council are adult lead, not youth lead.  Several troops around me appoint the SPL, he is not elected.  Many have annual PLC planning meetings, but the Scouts are only able to select the events for a few campouts, the adults dictate the others.  Some other troops I know do not even have PLC meetings, let alone annual planning meetings.  I also could rattle off about 8 troops that do not have their Scouts cook for themselves, the adults do all the cooking on their campouts.  The point here is do not assume that because your non-CoLDS unit follows the BSA's program as National states it should be, that all others do the same.  Fidelity in non-CoLDS does not exist.

In respect o comments that CoLDs units are "Eagle mills", I will submit you that the retention rate to age 18 among the CoLDS units I know of are MUCH higher than the non-CoLDS units, so the numbers reaching Eagle are higher, but by natural course that the youth are sticking around longer., not because the program is different.    

2 hours ago, mashmaster said:

He has joined a Sea Scout ship and has been getting very involved their.  It is different than the troop.  My son has no issues dealing with the boy led structure and leadership.  It just frustrates him to pieces when he has to deal with an adult that acts badly.  When she said that he was making the numbers up when he had a record of it and showed it to her, he was done with her.  He was trying to tell her about each line item in the list so she knew what he did and when.  She basically didn't believe him (essentially calling him untrustworthy).  He actually has pictures for each event so maybe that would convince her.  

Personally, I don't blame him for being upset and wanting nothing to do with her anymore.  But since she is SM, he is stuck dealing with her if he is in the troop.  His Skipper talks to him so much different.  

Go with where he is comfortable.  That sounds like his ship.  I've encountered crews and ships that are even more active than many troops, so I feel confident that he isn't "missing anything" if he doesn't chose to stay in a troop as well.  Based on his age, trying to maintain significant involvement in both is difficult- he's old enough he's experienced the "trail to 1st class" level stuff, probably doesn't really want to be on those campouts or at those meetings anymore anyway- especially where he has another outlet.  Scouting has to be fun - youth will tolerate an amount of "work" to it as well, but when that work overtakes the fun, they will just chose to do something else to get the fun back.  my advice from one dad to another- let him focus on the ship, there's no point into trying to change this SM.  Once he has had a few months away from her, sit and have a conversation with him if he thinks the ship is enough for him, or does he want to try another troop and go back to having both.  Life is too short to be in misery. 

One word, and a word that has zero place in Scouting -ego.  I am thrilled for your son he found a niche in scouting that fits him. Hope OA might also be a good place for him too.

Your son is technically chartered and registered with the troop until 12/31, whether he is actively attending meetings there or not. His election by now should already be recorded by the Lodge, so he can attend Ordeal between now and 12/31. The SM cannot do anything about it now. Sea Scouts that are not dual registered are not eligible for OA until the membership change goes into effect in February of next year, and at that point he would need to be elected “again” by that unit if he is not registered to a troop at that time.

The situation sounds awful, and is hitting close to home for me at the moment. Give your son encouragement from this Associate Lodge Advisor - his fellow Scouts elected him, the SM is irrelevant, and go forward with Ordeal to tip the nod to those guys for their recognition. That is what really matters right now. WWW

5 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

You capitalize "Cub" like that word supposed to be gender specific or something...

I don't want to jump down this rabbit hole, but I highly suggest you talk to you Son(s) about what is happening and get their honest opinion. Especially if you are suggesting ruining their opportunity to earn the Eagle rank to join an organization with far less opportunities. 

THIS bothers me! As a paid pro, DO NOT worry yourself with promoting what happens after a youth leaves the program, spend more of your time focusing on what happens while the youth is in the program- that is what really matters.  A kid earning Eagle is a great accomplishment, but if it what the organization uses to measure the success of the program itself, we have a major problem that can only be fixed by shutting the program down.  As a paid pro, I would expect you have far more training than we as volunteers do on the mission and aims and methods of Scouting, and should well know advancement is not in the mission, and it is only one of the methods.  I aged out as a Life for Life, and I do not regret the time I spent in Scouting as a youth, or as an adult.  There are far more of us in the adult leadership role that are not Eagle than those that are, so choose your words more carefully next time.

I agree with the feelings that "conditional scouter" is offensive, and that it also can be twisted to suit any side of a disagreement as a slap to someone's face.  This is life- people disagree in life, it's just going to happen.  And life is all about choices.  if you were a scouter in a unit that suddenly vanquished the patrol method, took away decision-making from the youth, or otherwise completely distorted the program to it's own viewpoint, you have the choice to go along and make the best of it, stay and try to work to change it, or move on.  The same goes for the BSA overall.  Those who feel these most recent changes were too much and moved on, I wish them well and that they were not leaving, but I understand they are doing what they feel is best for them.  I'm not enthusiastic about these membership changes, but I still desire to see the youth I have worked with for these past several years succeed and reach their goals, so I don't feel I can just walk away from them or the BSA completely over my disagreement with the pundits at National.  Once this group of youth are gone from the program, I very likely will walk away.  That doesn't feel any different to me than the parent who dons a uniform to help their child out and puts it in the closet when they turn 18 or otherwise leave.  Not quite sure when "volunteer" became indentured servitude.

7 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Maybe.  The OA has already set the equivalencies for induction and past camping experience counts (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/23/order-of-the-arrow-to-open-unit-elections-to-scouts-bsa-venturing-and-sea-scouts/.  If Discovery is equivalent to First Class, then it wont' take much in the way of mental gymnastics to say Pathfinder is the equivalent of Star or Life.  

Today, a boy can be registered in both (nationally, the majority of males in Venturing are dual registered to a troop), and this equivalency does not exist.  If a male were to say leave a troop as a first class scout and join Venturing, he may chose to continue to pursue Eagle using the Boy Scout advancement track.  If he decides to pursue the Venturing tack though, he starts at square one with Pathfinder.  why would the BSA ever change that for females to go in reverse? That would to me be very much against the "same program" and "nothing is really changing" statements we have heard to date. 

3 hours ago, MattR said:

We've all seen that. It's just that there was apparently going to be a discussion at NOAC about that announcement. I'm just wondering if it really happened. As in, was there feedback given on the idea.

From those who went, I was told there as no additional pronouncements or speeches addressing it.  At the expo, there were those available that would confirm what was previously announced.  One tidbit I got was that you can still use regalia, for Crossover/AOL, so long as the NA groups in your area have been consulted and give their blessing.  That seems contradictory to the language in the announcement. so I am working under the impression the announcement is the valid instruction to follow.

13 hours ago, Zebra132 said:

My concern is the statement that what we used to refer to as "tweeners" (18-20-year-olds) are now registered as adults and were originally told they were doing it for the background check. This mostly impacted Venturing and Sea Scouting. A line has been added that now states that this age group of "adult participants" must follow all YPT rules. This brings about two big issues: a Crew president or Ship boatswain that is 18+ cannot directly contact any unit member that is under 18 using the media in which the "youth" (usually texting or some other app) AND they will be required to break off contact with friends that are under 18 that are registered in Scouting until those friends reach 18. I know of a youth that has had his membership revoked and placed on the permanently ineligible list for one-on-one contact with a youth. This could really impact our "older programs" as I don't know many young people that will give up their friends for Scouting. This entire situation seems a little heavy-handed since we treat these young people as a collective unit and expect them to run themselves.

Welcome to the forum.

I fear the impacts it has on Venturing and Sea Scouts. I also fear the impact it has on OA as well, as we define “youth” in the OA as under 21, and I find it very common in the lodge and section level that some officers are 18+ while others are not. Not being able to have a private conversation with your own leadership group is just a strange concept.

2 hours ago, MattR said:

Does anyone know of a source for inexpensive tomahawks? I want to buy about 20 for our district to use at camporees. $15 would be good.

http://www.greyowlcrafts.com/tomahawks/ETH-1.html

2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

The AOL is a Cub Scout award;  our Pack, and the Packs in the area present the award with an appropriate ceremony.  Crossover is considered a troop function and performed by the troops.  Our troop conducts the crossover at a troop meeting.  Some Packs have multiple troops attend a Pack meeting to have the cubs crossover to the respective troop they're joning.

Not necessarily.  In our area, most Packs have the crossover at Blue and Gold, and yes the troop(s) send representatives, but the night is the Packs to plan.  

1 minute ago, Hawkwin said:

Not to be a pedant but while is this not possible at camp?

It doesn't state that the actual campout has to occur or even that the scouts actually camp after setting up camp.

To me, this seems very much like the difference between the Webelos Castaway #1C:

Using tree limbs or branches that have already fallen or been cut, build a shelter that will protect you overnight.

And the Wilderness Survival MB #8:

Improvise a natural shelter. For the purpose of this demonstration, use techniques that have little negative impact on the environment. Spend a night in your shelter.

 

Both requirements are essentially the same but the later requires that you actually spend a night in the shelter.

In reading the actual text of the Camping Merit Badge, it is very similar to Castaway, and not Wilderness Survival.

 

It does not appear that an actual campout need occur. This seems to be a reasonable requirement that could be completed at camp.

 

The requirement also does not state it must be "a Scout patrol from your troop" - stick 4 Scouts together that are working on the Mb together at camp, and you have a Scout patrol.

1 minute ago, perdidochas said:

Sounds sketchy about you not being able to MC.  That said, I do advise a script. There are probably hundreds of them online.  

There are a ton of scripts online.  One website: http://www.eaglescout.org/finale/coh/coh.html

There are no truly formal guidelines to an Eagle COH.  At the end of the day, as soon as the BOR declared your son an Eagle, he is an Eagle.  The COH is just a public display.  The one element that I would say should absolutely be done at any COH is the Eagle charge, administered by another Eagle.  Beyond that, add whatever other you and he would like.  The website above also gives sample letter templates and address info for writing to public figures for recognition letters.  Many will take 6-8 weeks to respond, and some you may not ever get a response from- my son received commendations from Presidents Carter, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Trump, but never received one from Obama (no political statement there, just giving you an example).

This is the charge used in my sons' COH:

Speaker:            The Boy Scouts of the world constitute one of the most significant movements in history, and you [NAME], have been counted worthy of this highest rank in its membership, all who know you rejoice in your achievement.

Your position, as you well know, is one of honor and responsibility. You are a marked man. As an Eagle Scout, you have assumed a solemn obligation to do your duty to God, to Country, to your fellow Scouts, and to mankind in general. This is a great undertaking. As you live up to your obligations, you bring honor to yourself and to your brother Scouts. If you fail, you bring down the good name of all true and worthy Scouts.

Your responsibility extends to your Country and God. America has many good things to give you and your children after you; but these good things depend on the qualities she instills in her citizens. You are prepared to help America in all that she needs most. She has a great past, and you are here to make her future greater.

I charge you to undertake your citizenship with a solemn dedication. Be a leader, but lead only toward the best. Lift up every task you do and every office you hold to the high level of service to God and your fellow men -- to finest living. We have too many who use their strength and their intellect to exploit others for selfish gains. I charge you to be among those who dedicate their skills and ability to the common good.

By repetition of the Eagle Scout Promise before your fellow Scouts, you will become an Eagle Scout. Though the words you use may be similar to those by which you joined Scouting, today they will mean more than they ever before.
 

[NAME], please repeat after me:

(Raise Scout sign)

On my honor, I will do my best....

to make my example ....

count strongly for better Scouting ....

To do my duty to God and my country ....

I reaffirm my allegiance....

to the United States....

and to obey the Scout Law ....

I rededicate myself....

to the three promises of the Scout Oath....

To help other people at all times; ....

to willingly share my knowledge ....

with all around me ....

To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I therefore take upon myself ....

the obligations and responsibilities ....

of the Eagle Scout. ....

I now welcome and pronounce you an Eagle Scout.

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I remember one time my lodge took a vote to change the lodge bylaws. The changes were pushed by a few adults, including the LA. When the lodge as a whole voted against the measures that were proposed, the LA told everyone in attendance that he didn't care what the youth wanted, the suggestion for the change came from national, and the lodge was changing regardless. Many Arrowman, youth and adult, wore their sashes inside out or took them off in protest.

So yes, I see this decision being made by the adults, and not hte youth.

I have met the current National Vice-Chief.  When this topic came up in conversation (it's been no secret it was being discussed, and I had hear an announcement was coming at NOAC), he said nothing in support of it and wanted to change the topic of conversation quickly. 

Based on the conversations that my son has relayed that are going on amongst the summer camp staff this week, I don't believe the youth were in support of this measure at all, or had any say in it.

Terrible place we have come to.  As a Native American, I had no issue with the ceremonies, when done respectfully and the ceremonialists treated it as such.

This new crossover script is corny as heck, and I don't see many kids jumping up and volunteering to use it.  

I absolutely don't think the Lodges should take on any part in carrying these ceremonies out at all, it has no connection at all to the OA, and wearing a sash for it is IMHO an inappropriate event to wear the sash now.