Col. Flagg

7 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Not to call out @Col. Flagg specifically. It's been something I've been thinking about on the forum for a while, and I know I've done it to folks in the past and we all see it quite a bit here. I think us not trying our best to be charitable with other people's posts causes some needless arguments that we can avoid by assuming the best intentions in our fellow Scouters. 

I know I fail to meet that standard often,  but that's honestly something I'm striving for if for no other reason than to treat people better and keep my blood pressure down. 

You know, when a mod implies my program is adult run by virtue of one of my posts, then when called out on it does not back down but doubles down with the "agree to disagree" phrase, posts like this above are a bit absurd. You can't "not call out" someone and then literally call them out. How about @RememberSchiff and his antics? Really. At least @NJCubScouter fessed up getting off topic yesterday despite all you guys chidding us whenever we sway a bit (or, realistically, a lot).

If you are "not going to call out" people and hold folks to a "charitable" standard, then let's please do so for EVERYONE! Moderators included. And please don't delete this post with the excuse of "problems with mods should be sent to Terry". If you are going to call out people IN PUBLIC then the RESPONSE should be PUBLIC too!!!

Let's be fair...to everyone!

28 minutes ago, David CO said:

My concern is one of privacy. Not all parents meet the requirements for membership.  I would not want to draw attention to the fact that a scout's parent is not eligible to be a scout leader. 

 

 

Yet you want them around your campfire? Driving your kids? Not me.

29 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I'm not judging the dad like @Col. Flagg seems to be. I'm just ignoring him. That's how we do rank advancement around here. The parent's word never counts for that much, although it is nice to see their letter of recommendation.

When someone disingenuously puts forward a strawman -- like Mr. Ireland is doing as a reason for letting his daughter in faster -- it is hard not to judge someone.

@EmberMike, why just her. I am sure there are many other boys and girls who would like an "Ireland Exception". Why does this girl get the recognition? Rich parents? Being the biggest complainer? What about the other girls who are affected by this? What happens to them if we give this girl a pass? 

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

As presented, your system works for you while ours, a different system, works for us.

We agree to disagree on approaches.

 

Fine. But that doesn't mean our approach would not work for you. You just don't like it.

And I am still a bit miffed that you cannot see how you disparaged my unit in your post and retract it. Yet if one of us non-mods did such a thing we'd surely find a warning in our inbox. Go figure.

5 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

We agree to disagree.

No. We don't. You implied something incorrect. I have given your facts about how something works. You don't like it, and that's fine. But you cannot imply that my unit is any less "scout-led" by virtue of what we do and how we operate behind the scenes. You also implied that we open our unit up to increased liability. Again, a false statement as we have had attorneys look at this and confirm this is not the case.

So no, we don't agree to disagree. Your statements are incorrect.

11 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

We obviously prefer a small pool of trained BSA leaders and have found it is more conducive to a scout-run unit. Works for us.

I will stick with my mechanic and his partner. I know him and trust him to protect my family as he has for 20+ years.  I think your troop has good intentions but I think your unit is greatly increasing your liability risk down the road, so to speak.

You're missing my point:

• We still have a Scout-run unit. This is back office stuff every unit has to deal with. We've just made sure that everyone involved and working with our Scouts has a standard training and understanding of safety, rules, policy and procedure.
• We keep to the leader-to-Scout ratio. Any additional adults are there because we needed cars, BUT we have at least made sure they are trained and know policy. They convert oxygen to carbon dioxide, assist in adult cooking/cleaning and drive. Everything else is handled by the trained leaders.
• BTW, our trained leaders (ASMs) all have the same training the SM is required to have. That also means that all the online courses are done too. Why? So that if the SM is ever incapacitated ANY of our ASMs could step in to his role.
• Liability is NOT on the unit for the inspection, it is on the garage. Our attorney has already confirmed this. Having lost a Scout to a vehicle accident previously (not unit-related) I can tell you this step has been immeasurably comforting and works. The unit is no more exposed on this issue than your's is.
• Lastly, our unit avoids many of the silly issues that other units (perhaps even yours) runs in to by NOT making sure parents know the rules and are similarly trained. The best part is that all of this takes not longer than any other unit's training. In fact, because we have centralized it we actually do it faster.

As for "scout-run", our unit is entirely boy-led and uses the patrol method. The things noted above are outside of their purview. Nothing we do for the adults diminishes the boy-led aspect of our unit, despite your implication to the contrary...but thanks.

1 minute ago, Tampa Turtle said:

The great thing about this approach is it increases 'the cost of admittance' and quickly weeds out folks who are gonna balk at more expense and inconvenience. YPT does that a little bit. 

Sort of, @Tampa Turtle. 

So we charge the pure cost of adult registration. Not a big costs for people in my area. Most units in my area charge adults WAY more than $33 we charge. Some charge as much as $75 for adult leaders and "volunteer" registration...per year!!!

The $30 inspection fee for the vehicle is done later in the year. If anyone cannot afford it we have part of the fund-raising budget that goes to operations which would cover such things. Same goes for any vehicle that does not have electronic breaking system for the tow hitch. The troop pays for that too. That's at least $150 worth of gear and labor.

The training we do we've worked in to a short three-hour session. We have them do YPT there, we cover CPR-AED and we cover troop operations. After they pass that YPT is done annually be themselves and CPR-AED is offered a few times a year (expires every two years) during troop meetings. We even can re-cert WRFA for those expiring. Safe Swim and the other online courses are strongly encouraged even for parents. We have about a 60% uptake on that training being done as well. Go figure.

We think this gives the parents piece of mind that their kids are in the hands of people who all have the same standard baseline training.

9 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Glad it works for you, that would be the last thing we would do.

Our SM carefully "encourages" only parents who understand the program (specifically this is not Cub Scouts and scout-run) to register as an adult leader.  Our ASM, who is Outing Coordinator,  selects from that pool, sort of like the start of the old Mission Impossible tv show.

Just anybody and everybody registering as an adult leader without any knowledge of Boy Scouts is asking for trouble. Can an adult still register without taking YPT? Yes, how dumb is that. Oh , within 30 days, you are supposed to  .... Train, test and pass, then register.  Sort of like Show, Tell, Do.

If the troop said that I  had to go to another mechanic to inspect my family car or pay $30 when the state charges $7,  bye. 

Well, I can tell you that by using this approach we've built a huge pool of active, eager, well-trained adults who understand BSA policy and help to make sure it is implemented. How that's a bad thing I don't quite understand. In fact, it makes us one of the units that's well-respected in council because we seem to avoid the silly issues many other units experience. When I tell them what we do, and how little time it takes to administer and manage, they see the effectiveness of this program. And yes, we've had folks that had ZERO knowledge of Boy Scouts and put them through our parent orientation and troop committee training. These folks have become some of our BEST adult volunteers. Think of it this way: If you spend all that time investing in training and development of the Scouts, why wouldn't you do something similar for the adults? The unit and the kids benefit greatly.

As for the inspection, I should mention that the $30 is the cost in our state. If you do it through our guy the state inspection is included AND when he finds any little issues he usually fixes them for free.

All you need to do is have one accident involving one of your vehicles and you will change your mind. It is a terrible thing to lose a Scout in your unit. You can complain about the $30 all you want, but if your kid is riding in a car that is "state inspected" and something goes wrong, I am willing to be you'd go back in time and spend that $30. Oddly enough we've NEVER had a parent balk about spending that money. Why? Safety. They know their car and everyone else's has been inspected well KNOWING that it will be carrying their kid someday. Put a price on that!

9 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What if the parents are registered as Cub Scout leaders and the siblings are Cub Scouts?

Yes, we had that happen. ASM brought his TDL wife and Tiger to camporee. When I brought it to the adults in the troop's attention that Cub Scouts, except Webelos checking out troop, were not allo wed to camp at camporee, I got so much pushback that the family was "family camping," and that the Tiger would not be an issue, I said the heck with it. DE brought this on by allowing a Cub event at the same time and location as camporee. I had bigger issues to deal with, especially since I had to redo a campwide orienteering course since locations where events were going to be had to be moved due to Cub Scouts.

 

EDITED: If my sons didn't have friends in the troop and were trying to change it, I'd quit by now. The Family Camping garbage and all it entails is really chapping my hide.

If they are visiting us, then being registered (and trained) with a Pack works. But if they have a Scout registered in our unit then they need to meet these requirements.

I have to agree on the family camping issue. It's not Boy Scouting, that's Cub Scouting. I get one event per year or so for the family, but to open all events to the family is NOT what Boy Scouting is about IMHO.

On 1/17/2017 at 8:56 PM, Jarmfam said:

Hello! I am a Scout Master for Troop 18, but have one question. Can Senior Patrol Leaders re-run? If they can't is there some Scout book that states it? Thanks!

Yes...and I would encourage it if he's really good. 

I would advise you to also identify other guys who could under-study him should he get re-elected.

11 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

They also have issues regarding council and national leadership, outdated business model, wasteful spending and risky income sources.  A couple had comments that BSA is headed toward collapse (I don’t agree and perhaps that is just their emotional response).

Well, I would not be so quick to discount the topic of "collapse".

Successful businesses cannot offer low pay, poor benefits, long work hours and a despicably poor work-life ratio. There are a myriad of studies to show that companies that *do* engage such practices have an enormously high attrition rate. When you couple a high attrition rate with poor workplace training, low-quality information systems, bad communication and workplace processes, you end up with a continuing spiral of lower and lower quality in job performance because you lose institution knowledge and don't have processes in place to transition (and manage) that knowledge. What you get are the districts, council and national staff we have today. Is it any wonder why BSA has all these problems...or communicates (and mismanages things) so poorly?

Total collapse? Probably not. But I would argue that if you looked at BSA from 1990 and compared with BSA 2018, those around to know both intimately might use the word "collapse". 

I also suspect Green Bar Bill is just face palming something fierce.

13 hours ago, Stosh said:

I just got back from my UC/roundtable meeting and this issue came up on the rechartering discussion we had.  If a mom and/or dad shows up for a scout outing and are not registered (and to be registered they need YPT) , they are NOT covered by any BSA insurance.  Neither are unregistered siblings whether the parents are registered or not. 

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, families will view their BSA unit as "tour guides" and hold the BSA and unit responsible for anything that goes wrong on any outdoor activities.

Exactly why my unit requires ALL parents to register. We also do NOT allow any un-registered siblings to attend camp outs. At the end of the day the CO, SM and CMT Chair are the ones with their butts on the line if something goes wrong. We make sure (by checking paperwork) that all cars are properly insured and inspected too. We have a dad who owns a garage and he does a $30 inspection on any cars that are going to carry troop kids. The troop reimburses for gas. ALL adults are YPT trained and even CRP/AED (which we have two portable ones).  We've had these policies in place for many years now. We get a few folks that complain...maybe one a year. And yes, we DO have a family camp out once a year just to meet the requests from those who want such a thing.

12 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I had to go back and look up a few things when I read this:

“It is outrageous and embarrassing that the Scouts will ban local young women from participating, particularly as we are the host country,” he said. “Scouts need to be a certain age and rank to attend a Jamboree. With the Boy Scouts allowing girls into the program very soon, it is unclear why they continue to refuse admission to Sydney.”

To me it looks like Mr Ireland is using the Jamboree as a reason to go ahead and allow HIS daughter (and presumably ALL girls) to start Scouting now. But the next NSJ is not for more than 3-1/2 years in 2021, so any girl that started in 2019 would have plenty of time to reach First Class by the Jamboree.

So I assume he is referring to the WSJ in 2019. Depending when in 2019 BSA4G starts, there will likely be enough time for them to earn First Class and get registered.

I suspect Mr. Ireland is not a very good lawyer because his research and reading comprehension skills are considerably lacking. Even my 19 year old son knows where to find the WSJ registration requirements. But what happens if Ms. Ireland is not one of the 10,000 people selected to go for the US contingent? Will she badger her Canadian friends in Ontario to be part of theirs? If she does not get in there will daddy fly her to Zimbabwe to be part of their contingent? Where does this sense of entitlement end?

He knows darn well that she could go, IF SELECTED, as a member of a Venturing Crew or even a member of her Canadian-based unit. He's being purposely argumentative to try to force an issue for HIS kid. Talk about poster children for entitlement.

1 hour ago, perdidochas said:

Take away his video games and his phone before taking away Scouting.  

^^^^^^
This a 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times!!!

Why would you take away something that gets him outdoors, teaches him things and builds character.

Take away all screen time. No phone, computer, laptop, game console or anything else until grades are up. Take away sleep overs, sports or even something special (no Halloween or special trip) if he isn't performing.

My kid missed trick or treat one year because he had zeros in English class. Another time we had a stay-cation because my daughter decided to openly fail a class. No Disney, we stayed home. Recently I took my teenage daughter's phone away...that was August. Goal: All classes above an 85. She JUST got her phone back.

I don't take away positive things, only those things that mean nothing in the long run. As @perdidochas said, phone and video games are the first thing that should go.

3 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Really? He said,. "“It is outrageous and embarrassing ..."

I've read much worse things said about Nationals on this message board - some from people in this thread.

 

Well, he said much more than that if you quote the full context.

Let's be clear, it is much different to say things here in a semi-anonymous forum than to be quoted directly when you want something from national. I am sure we all would hold our tongues much more if we were being quoted in the press, so you can imagine what the father is saying privately.

Well, when you put yourself out there publicly....

23 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

@Col. Flagg

 

How would they 'fold' Venturing? Allow Scouts to go past 18?

Well, according to this one group of folks they'd simply either move youth to their gender-appropriate units or install the Boy Scout rank system in to Venturing. Didn't hear how they'd handle 18-21 year olds who want Eagle.

18 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Col. Flagg, I found the thread I was looking for, and I see you have now posted in it as well.  (The one started by LeCastor.)  His district is starting new crews and revving up to support the program, and your district doesn't want to hear about it.  The contrast is rather striking for subdivisions of what is supposed to be the same organization.

Since I live in the shadow of national I don't know if the locals here actually know something or are just showing their proclivity for one program over another. Crews get little support as it is. Right now it looks like none will be forthcoming. We will continue as we always have but it makes long term planning difficult. My crew has just said if Venturing shuts down, we will start a youth group within the COR that's based on fun and high adventure.

That would have to be some really good positive context left out to make THOSE quotes look better. He flat out trashed them. The rest of his comments would have to be rainbows and unicorns about BSA to make up for that.

Nope. No help at all from above. Here's the post I made earlier outlining why.

1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:

Ok then. We agree to disagree. 

What does that mean? Agree to disagree on what issue exactly?

6 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

An older wiser Scouter reminded me there was nothing keeping me from planning my own camps and hikes with my family and a few friends the 'old school way'. If I can talk Mrs Turtle into it she might go though I think she does not see the thrill in too much deprivation. She does think camping means cooking meals on site and not catering; however, "camp cooking" means the man does everything. 

Our Crew does this now. It has become so popular that Scouts who have left the troop (and crew) have come back to attend. 

1 minute ago, WisconsinMomma said:

As far as I can tell the request has been respectful and courteous.  Different people have different styles, some are rule followers, and some are change agents.  It's all OK.   My opinion would change if the girl or her family starts trashing the BSA and behaves poorly, but I don't think anything is wrong with a polite request either.

Change agent? Really? 

When someone asks for special consideration that is not being a "change agent", that's being a self-absorbed, egotistical manipulator. It's not like she's Rosa Parks here. It would be like me demanding my bank lend to me despite my 330 credit score. They have their own rules as a private bank as to who they lend to. Can I ASK for them to change and make an exception? SURE!! But to EXPECT...and to continue to press the issue...once the answer has been given is not being a "change agent". That's being self-absorbed and expecting special treatment.

The way I read that article (and other interview with this family), the father as been exactly that...behaving poorly and disrespectful of the BSA. When a child asks for a cookie before dinner and a parent tells them no -- and they keep asking, then bad-mouthing the parent -- should they not be labelled a spoiled, petulant child?

We had a aerospace engineer who actually used a wind tunnel to test "his kid's" car. He won, er, his kid won every year he was in the Pack. We finally created different divisions, not by rank or age, where folks could compete. All the parents kids who thought they had fast cars all went to the top division.

I hated PWD for that very reason. Most of the time the cars were designed and built by the parents.

Is it a "pinewood" derby if you print the car from plastic? That should be its own category if you allow it.

BSA does have official rules, but seem to leave wiggle room for interpretation. How unusual of them.

17 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Our unit has, suddenly...really like in 3 months, de-evolved into Family Camping with lots of mom's and dad's coming to events, talking down more strenuous events, talking up other that are easy, etc...influencing the PLC on where they will spend their dollars. The mood seems to be "females are welcome so we girls can go camping". The boys do their meal planning and patrol box thing and a bunch of well meaning moms -and they are real nice God bless'em- talk about "getting enough (donuts, pizza, etc) for the whole Troop--don't worry we will pay for it". Some of the hard core boys are having nothing to do with it, they are conspicuous in their absence and some of 'middle aged' boys are OK with it because, well the catered campout makes the quick trip o Eagle that much easier. Frankly I was shocked out quick this change took place...I really cannot blame National. But I do not see it as a good sign. (I see the same thing in some other youth groups)

But a lot of parents are happy --reminds me when you have a good group of den parents who like to get together-- so O do not think the SM or CC will push it too far. I think they are gonna help their boys get Eagle quick and bail. 

'

This is Boy Scouts? Oh, I feel for you @Tampa Turtle. I would have tapped out looooong ago if that was the case. That's not Boy Scouting...that's a Pack event.