Col. Flagg

1 minute ago, NJCubScouter said:

Of course you can ask.  Anyone can ask anything they want.  The answer is going be (and should be) no, which I believe is the same answer the BSA will (and should) give Ms. Ireland.

I actually see nothing wrong with her asking.  I think it's great that she wants to be a Something-Scout and do the work required to earn Eagle.  That doesn't mean she can, because she was born too soon.  She can probably be a Something-Scout for a short period but apparently will not have time to earn Eagle.  Maybe she will want to become an ASM in the Something-Scouts when she turns 18.  They are going to need female leaders and all of her youth activities (official and unofficial) should make her a good candidate.

I was being purposely obtuse. I KNOW I can ask. The POINT was that I know better. I live by the rules. I read them and I abide by them. Since BSA is a membership organization and can make their own rules, I don't openly ask them to change them just to accommodate me. Why? Because I believe in allowing organizations -- even ones I disagree with -- to do what they like, how they like. I don't ask to cut in line at Whataburger because I am hungrier than the people in front of me, I wait my turn.

If you read the article she goes on to say how she cannot go to the world jamboree? "Her primary concern is trying to get the BSA to speed up the inclusion date from 2019. Unless admitted very soon, she’ll be unable to participate in certain activities like the 2019 International Jamboree, to be held in West Virginia." 

Really? She can't join a Venturing Crew and go? Her Ontario unit can't go? Please.

And if you read further you see her father's fingerprints all over this issue. Lawyers....Shakespeare had the right idea.

7 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Didn't someone else post within the past week that they are involved in a current district effort to INCREASE Venturing activity?  Maybe they said they had been appointed Venturing RT commissioner where there had not been anyone in that position before?  I could be wrong about that.  But if I am correct, it suggests that there is a difference in how different people are interpreting the signals coming from National.  If nothing else, it would seem to me that National would not want to lose the 18-21 youth members, although I suspect the numbers currently participating in that range are not overwhelming.

Oh, I suspect national has no clue what they are doing or going to do about Venturing. From this rather detailed conversation I hear, the plan (at least according to these folks who each tried to out-do each other in how "insider" they were to Irving) is to fold Venturing in to Boy Scouts again. Girls would go to girl troops and boys to boy troops. The thought was that why would girls join Venturing if they really wanted Eagle. One person claimed that Venturing would simply pick up the Boy Scout rank process.

Either way, my unit is in limbo. Sure we will continue to have fun like we always do, but growing the unit is impossible. I have no answers as to what the future holds. Who wants to join a group that cannot articulate their long term prospects?

8 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I have not seen any article saying that she is trying to get "credit" for anything.  What the article linked at the beginning of this thread says is that she is asking to be able to join now rather than when the new program goes into effect because the time period in between is the difference between her having a shot at making Eagle before she turns 18, and not.  

And that's not asking for special treatment? BSA has already said it will be 2019. Asking to get in earlier *IS* asking for special permission, an exception, special consideration.

I'd like to do my BOR from 1981. It was the only thing I didn't do for Eagle. Can I ask for special consideration? I know a handful of Life Scouts that were too involved in high school stuff to complete a few requirements toward Eagle, can they ask for special consideration?

BSA has said when they will open Boy Scouts to girls. End of story....unless you are like this girl who wants preferential treatment.

So....

Overheard a conversation in my district recently at a large training event. The leaders of my district, several others, and even council are saying they've effectively "given up" on Venturing since "girls are coming in to Boy Scouts, so what good is Venturing any way?" To test what I heard I arranged to meet with my DE and discuss how Venturing could be really promoted and showcased during 2018. She wouldn't even take the meeting, saying that "future events would dictate what happens to Venturing." 

So what am I supposed to do with my Crew now? I can't even get support from my district to help grow the unit and the program. If this turns out to be what BSA has in store for Venturing, I've spent my last year in this uniform.

On 1/9/2018 at 9:12 AM, fred johnson said:

I just made that connection.  I did not make the connection.  Absolutely right.  Can't have "family" focus if forcing genders to be in different troops.  

Inconsistencies are aggravating.  

Can't?

I am the SM of the girls troop. You are the SM of the boys troop. We are going camping but neither of us have critical mass to go unless we go together (2-deep, # of adults, cars, etc.). *BOOM* you now have two units camping together. If mom or dad want to go along exactly how many troops are going to say no?

We don't officially have family camping now, yet many troops do it. How is having gender-separate units going to stop anyone from doing family camping?

5 minutes ago, qwazse said:

... but isn't that the point? Remove council or district approval and the need for duplication plummets.

It doesn't need to be a digital nightmare. Accept the proposal in the form of a plain text E-mail addressing points on an outline ... with the scout attesting that he has collected the requisite signatures. Otherwise, request a hardcopy be mailed to the district or handed to the district advancement chair at round-table.

There are digital alternatives that can be done which fix many of the technology problems noted in this thread. There are free programs (and low cost commercial ones) that BSA could use which would 1) standardize the process which will save time, 2) implement a standard method for providing photos, etc., without losing data, and 3) allow for a digital workflow (again, standardized) which would allow everyone to submit the same way, using the same open, free and easy to use system.

Case in point: Google Classroom. This software is quite easy to use and could easily be customized to fit the Eagle process. It is easy to use and comes with tutorials to help the Luddites. Just an example.

On 1/8/2018 at 9:29 PM, 5thGenTexan said:

Well...  everything is just as it was the last time I wore it.  I don't want to take everything off.  If I can get a nice presentation I might take it to a den meeting to show.  My Boy Scout shirt is a different matter.  It was not as nice of an experience as Cub Scouts.  I think I will remove everything from it and pass the shirt down to my son when he is ready for the tan shirt.

Hobby Lobby has some nice wooden display frames that are made for showing off sports jerseys. You could put it in one of those if you like. I have seen that done in a few houses here in the Lone Star state. One guy has his Cub and Eagle uniform in two different ones his man cave.

On 1/8/2018 at 7:03 PM, Eagle1993 said:

Her “fight” could have been both about her own interest and also the broader “good”.   Either way, I think BSA should keep this simple.   Set the start date for girls, any girl that joins must meet the requirements (including timeline) for Eagle.   I think that leaves her out but honestly there are probably 1,000s of other girls in similar situations who did work without recognition.   I dont think she should get special treatment because her dad was a rich NYC lawyer who ensured her story was publicized.  True leaders would be excited for the change and confident that their work is the true mark of accomplishment and leadership... not the rank.   

If that's the case, doing all these things to force the issue of her getting special treatment would not be so prevalent. She'd be happy to take the win of getting girls in Scouting and move on. The fact she's still pushing to get credit for various things related to getting Eagle demonstrates she's looking for MORE special treatment. It detracts from her role in the bigger picture and cheapens it. In the end it was about what she could get out of it.

7 hours ago, Back Pack said:

The problem is that there are no signs near the boat ramps saying the power lines are there. The one sign that is there has a warning as one of many bullet points on the sign all in small text. There should be a big red warning sign noting the wires and the lines themselves should have update warning bouys on the ground under the wires and on the wires themselves. 

The local units are trying to urge Texas Parks & Wildlife to take steps to better mark the area. I understand there are a few unit/Eagle projects to draw attention to the issues noted above. With lake levels fluctuating so wildly, and the poor markings both at the ramp and on the lake, the power company needs to do something. If not them, then the parks dept since they control the access point and lake use.

I'd hold on to it. It costs nothing to pop it in a tote and store in the attic. I recently found similar items from my dad. I wasn't going to wear them as a kid. As an adult I treasure them being there...especially as I lose him.

We use TM and they have confirmed they will be able to ingest BSA advancement data just like they do training data.

Our crew uses Scoutbook but I am not sold on it. For a small 20 person crew at $40/year it is okay. For a troop that has so much to manage I could not imagine using it versus TM.

I highly doubt BSA will ever be at the point where they compel units to use only SB. That would be a bad move on their part.

I didn't think it was possible to get six pages on this topic. 

Let's face it, like Star Wars, the BSA faithful will stick around to see how things play out and then leave. The older among us will long for the wit and promise of "A New Hope". The younger among us will embrace the new even with all of its warts and poorly developed structure. Why? Because that's what society has become: Flair over substance.

I suspect there's a parallel between the Republic and BSA, or between Jar-Jar and Mike Saurbaugh, but I don't have time to make it.

4 hours ago, ianwilkins said:

Well everyone's heard of Boy Scouts right? Am I right?

There you go then, the scout "brand" is just behind a popular fizzy soft drink and a fruit based tech company. Possibly.

It must be an amazing brand because everyone has heard of it. I really can't see how that fits in with Asian Licensing but hey, write your speech...something something leverage something something synergy etc etc for 10 minutes or so job done.

This is only PART of any branding strategy. The NEXT question is: "What is your opinion of Boy Scouts?" A brand may be known for all the wrong reasons. GM comes to mind. Chrysler? Yugo? Spam? Exxon? Man City?

Having BSA at a branding summit is like having Hillary at an ethics seminar or Trump at a personal relationship building workshop. There's just no "street cred".

In the US we have this company that rates "initial quality" for cars. Several (really bad) car makers use this term to tout their brands. What does it mean? It is a measure of problems experienced within the first 90 days of ownership. How many times does ANY car have issues in the first 90 days? Why is this even measured? It's a useless stat designed to let poor quality cars APPEAR to have good quality. Talk to me in 5 years about these cars and then see how good their "quality" is. THIS is BSA summed up in my opinion. They look for meaningless things to hang their hat on while the REAL issues go unresolved.

As @Tampa Turtle said, image over substance. 

On 1/4/2018 at 5:43 PM, NJCubScouter said:

Well, since (officially, anyway) boys and girls will be in different troops, there will not be a "family troop model."  Presumably.

As Dr. Evil would say, "Riiight".

Presumably there are all sorts of things units shouldn't do, yet they do anyway. "Family troops" are already a reality. Adding girl troops (if it actually gets implemented as such, but I suspect units will combine anyway) just gives those units an "out" to go that next step further.

BSA has always missed the mark in executing such changes. Doubling the need for volunteer leaders is not a successful model for an organization hemorrhaging members and volunteers. And let's not pretend that units are going to successfully "leverage" already over-leveraged leaders. That hasn't worked for crews, troops or packs yet. It only INCREASES volunteer burn out.

There's one problem with this whole debate about this girl getting credit for Eagle: Currently girls are NOT allowed to be in Boy Scouts (troops, not crews) in the United States OR do ANY work that will get credited toward Eagle.

This proves that her "fight" was NOT about getting girls in Scouts. It was about HER getting Eagle and nothing else.

I say too bad. You won the war but lost your battle. Take your triumph and move on.

@Cubber, so you are saying that guys (and I assume girls) shouldn't have their same-sex groups in which to relax and be themselves? Then why do guys have golf weekends and women have scrap-booking weekends. Girls night out? Guys night out? 

If the desire to "just hang out with the guys/girls" wasn't such a big thing, then why do so many people do it?

My daughter answered the question quite well. She said, "I like hanging out without guys around because I don't have to put on make up. I can wear what I want. Eat what I want. Say what I want. Be crazy with my girl friends. I can watch what I want and not have to pretend to like something."

I'd wager if you asked guys they'd say something similar. These barriers are real and usually don't come down until you find the person you will marry. THAT is why both girls AND guys need a single sex environment.

19 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

@WisconsinMomma, you have caught a lot of flack on this board that I do not think you deserved, but you have also made a number of comments that illustrate exactly why many "old school" leaders get frustrated. I, like most leaders I am sure, am happy to discuss, explain and even teach parents on any number of Scouting topics. But the moment the parents vision differs from the Scouts vision of what they want, the parents words fall on deaf ears. Even when the parent and Scout are in sync, the moment a parent starts doing the things the Scout should be doing I push back. The Scouting experience is for the youth, not the parent. On that point I do not and will not waiver except in extreme circumstances.

Great post. Why is it so hard for parents to let their kids do all the work? I'd ask the rhetorical question if parents do the same thing for the kid's school work, but the answer I suspect it most likely affirmative. There seems to be a high correlation between the parents that hover in Scouting and those that hover for school work. This is the equivalent of cutting a kid's meat for them.

@Eagle94-A1, I really feel for you and your efforts. If the SM has not fully bought in to the patrol method and boy-led approach, AND he is not afraid to act as gate keeper to keep the adults at bay, then it is truly an up hill battle.

On 12/14/2017 at 12:44 AM, TAHAWK said:

Not sure where you get the facts to leap to this erroneous canard.

My poor attempt at humor. Since you guys hold yourselves up as "old guys" I figured you (and only you) would have listened to the Lil' Rascals on radio live.

I blew the set up of the joke. I blame online forums.

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I hid @Col. Flagg recent post, pending review by moderators.

How others parent their own kids is not part of the discussion.

Good Lord. It was a nicely worded question she could either answer or not.

You guys need a consistency filter because you sure don't apply rules evenly.

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One of the things I remember not only being taught when I did BA 22, but also taught when staffing JLT was "Counseling." I remember when I had issues, I went to the ASPL or SPL. They were my mentors, not the adults. Even when I was ASPL and acting SPL, it was my peers I went to, not the adults. @Col. Flagg brings up a very good point regarding adult intervention. Heck it is even discouraged that Scouts deal with discipline problems in their units anymore.

Spot on.

And notice I used the term "adult Scouter". I did that purposely so as not to imply "parents" were needed at ANY Boy Scout or Venturing function. Scouting in those two programs need the MINIMUM of adult leaders around...EVER!! We don't need mom or dad the parent. We don't need sister Susie or brother Johnny. 

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

OK, Stosh says the boys will lose, Flagg says the girls will lose, we'll have to see what actually happens.

Yes, there will need to be more leaders.  That means welcoming to the new people who show up to help out.   

If patrols are youth run, if I understand Stosh correctly, the adults aren't all that important!     The BSA has a wealth of training materials and there's always Youtube for learning to do lashings and practically any other Scout skill. 

We'll have to see how it goes. 

Actually, I was addressing your comments about chauvinistic male leaders when I said the girls will lose out. @Stosh is exactly right when he says the boys will lose out. I suspect he's talking about the degradation of the single-sex Scouting program that has been so successful, and the erosion of places where guys can go to "be guys" without people thinking that's a bad thing.

If you think the "new parents" (I assumed you imply these are the parents of girls) will suddenly sign up, then you and I have two TOTALLY different experiences in Scouting. Whether incoming guys or girls, whether Boy Scouts or Venturing, "new parents" avoid volunteering like the plague. The younger they are the more this is true (in my experience). I have yet to see, in over 13 years as an adult leader, a trickle (let alone stampede) of new parents joining to help.

As for training and BSA's materials, again, things are lacking. Wood badge does nothing to help Scouters understand allowing the patrol method to work, grounding helicopter parents/leaders or in addressing the most common needs affecting troops and packs. The training materials discuss HOW to conduct a training session but not what to discuss. The last thing one wants it a YouTube Scouter teaching anything. There's the Scout Handbook. If that cannot be used to teach the program then we are in HUGE trouble.

One thing bothers me in all of this. Your posts seems to rely a great deal on adult intervention. Maybe I am inferring too much. Maybe I'm not. The main role of adult leaders is to train the Scouts to do their jobs. Once they are trained it is the SCOUTS that teach TFC and such, not the adults. Adult leaders are around for health and safety or being MBCs. Anything more and, to steal from Jeff Foxworthy, "You might be a helicopter parent." Not saying "you" means you specifically...more the general "you" including all of us.

2 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Below each post is a "plus" sign, just to the left of the word "Quote."  The plus sign is multi-quote, which does what you were trying to do.  In the old software it said the word "Multiquote," I don't know why they decided to replace it with a symbol, but anyway...

Added:  Oh, someone already answered... never mind...

Yeah, He Who Must Not Be Named.  You can speak my name, I don't bite....hard. (Sorry Austin Powers).

12 minutes ago, Chadamus said:

Maybe we should say today's Eagle requires more (paperwork, projects), but there are more resources available to achieve it (technology,  parents).

Paperwork does not make the REQUIREMENTS harder. And most units have adults to help the Scouts through the adult-developed paperwork maze.

MBs earned in a day or a few hours. Parents emailing and texting leaders about requirements.

The process was slower back then which made it harder. The Scout had to do everything themselves. Never heard of a helicopter parent unless they were actually pilots.

8 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to reply to two posts in one post of my own.

Yeah new interface had me thrown too. I think it works when you click the + sign for each post you want to quote. In the lower right a "multi quote" box pops up (at least for me) and then you click that.

5 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

...and as soon as they have trouble recruiting leaders, it becomes a Commissioner problem because somebody is going to have to visit the unit on a "Parents Night" and facilitate a "somebody has got to help out here, folks," conversation. And then constantly monitor them to ensure they really are delivering the Program and not cutting corners.

No offense, but I have not seen a commissioner in 12 years. Looking at our district website we have 36 troops in our district and only 2 DCs. A larger number of packs and only 4 DCs for them. I know for a fact 2 of those 6 people are nearly immobile. The other four are so involved with their troops that they wouldn't have time to visit 5 units a year.

If BSA is betting on DCs to pick up the slack they may want to count how many belly buttons they have in those roles who can actually do the job. I'll wager most districts have paper DCs only, if any. I know mine is like that, as are the surrounding districts.