Col. Flagg

9 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Probably.  I sometimes have trouble knowing when someone is making a joke in a post.  From past experience in this forum, I am not the only one who has that problem.

I suspect the international sign of using a  when it was a joke. Or maybe it's just having spent 3 years in public school in London that allows me to interpret.

23 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Zero tolerance DOES mean "leaving good judgment at the door."  It's zero tolerance.  No use of judgment, no consideration of circumstances, no exceptions.  If you are using judgment to say some infractions are excused because of the circumstances, it's not zero tolerance.  That's why zero tolerance is a bad idea.  It "sounds" good to many people, but as I said before, many of those people don't understand what it means.

1 hour ago, Back Pack said:

That’s my point. You can’t write a law that says no knives on school property because the school is already violating their own law by supplying metal knives in the cafeteria. So by some folk’s definition of zero tolerance the law is de facto already broken. If I have a 2” emergency blade in my safety kit how and use a knife at lunch, a I guilty twice? Should their be a difference in bringing a two inch blade versus using a 4” knife to cut my Salisbury steak? If yes, then we’ve already built discretion in to the law (bringing a knife versus being supplied a knife) which refutes NJ’s argument that zero tolerance can’t have discretion since it already has some forms of discretion in them. I’m just saying take it a bit furether. 

I think BP makes a good point.

If the school supplies metal knives AND has a "zero tolerance" rule about knives, they are already exercising "judgement" on when to apply the rule and when not. They clearly allow knives on campus because they supply them. I suspect the statute is nor written in so much detail as to to say "Knives are only permitted if the school supplies them", because that, as you say @NJCubScouter would not be "zero tolerance; so at the onset the is no real "zero tolerance" in the law. And give the administrators and teacher exercise judgement every day when they don's suspend student from using knives in the cafeteria, clearly judgement of some kind *IS* being exercised.

So this begs the question, can you even have a zero tolerance policy around knives or weapons without exercising some sort of judgement? 

Thanks for clearing this up for me. I can only imagine how confused folks must be inside and outside of the LDS community.

20 minutes ago, Amynh said:

Col. Flagg

This was what I thought too. However, we had a pack meeting last night. Our Charter states that our cub scout pack owes our troop pack for things that we have not been paying for. they don't elaborate on what these things are just we owe it. The Troop and the pack do have their own accounts and treasurers  but our pack and the troop do belong to the same charter. 

Wow. Well, it sounds fishy to me. I mean, no one ever says "You owe this" without showing what is owed and why? If they cannot break it down then that's a red flag in my book. I would not be cutting a check to any group that could not tell me how my money is being used OR what I am getting for that cost.

1 hour ago, Amynh said:

Is  a cub scout pack under the same charter as a boy scout troop  have to give money to the troop or the charter other than dues for rechartering puropses?

 

If the pack and the troop belong to the same charter org, there could be a few different issues at play.

The troop will usually have their own dues ($34, $46 if you add in Boys' Life). Some troops charge other annual fees to cover awards, ranks, equipment, etc. So the minimum you could be expected to pay a troop would be $34 ($46 if you wanted Boys' Life).

Packs would be similar. Their dues to BSA would be $34 ($46) for each Scout. Like troops, packs might have "other" expenses for which they collect "dues".

For example: Troop 123 has annuals dues of $100 per Scout. Of that $100, $34 goes to BSA for recharter dues, $12 pays for Boys' Life. The remaining $54 might cover awards, equipment fee and other operating costs.

Both packs and troops only owe BSA the $34/$46 per Scout. Other than that, whatever they collect goes to their unit for other purposes. You might want to have the pack and the troop breakdown what their dues goes to. If they cannot answer that question, to me that would be a red flag. Every unit should know what their dues covers.

10 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

Is it a turf war of some type preventing leaders from the older age units going to the troop level and leveraging the experience and talents there? I mean, same things at play, just a uniforming difference. Just surprising to hear, especially if the same  CO is sponsoring both.

Yeah, that was what I thought too at first. I think it is just that the guys doing the 11-13 program want to stick with that because that's what they know. The 14-17 guys know how to run their program and really don't want to "fight" the 11-13 leaders for who will run the unit. Of course, being LDS guys there are all too nice to get in to a political war, so they just avoid the confrontation. The 11-13 leaders see the unit as "theirs" and the 14-17 leaders, rather than hassle with it, just go on to other things.

The 14-17 boys have either a) if the are Eagles have dropped Scouts, b) if Eagles but love high adventure have joined non-LDS crews, c) if not Eagles have joined non-LDS troops with a good road to Eagle program.

If it was any other denomination it would be a unit-on-unit leader blood bath.  The LDS guys are just too nice.

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

My objection is to this hanging Bobcats upside down for pinning their patch nonsense.  I understand it was done long ago, but I'm glad it's gone.  It was interesting that someone mentioned it, I had never heard of it before.   Given that the BSA has discouraged the practice and it hasn't been around for more than 20 years, it's not really a problem.  As far as being a new person to Scouting, yes, it's not the 1990's anymore.   That's where I was going with the touching -- the holding kids upside down -- that's no good.   Don't approve, BSA got it right. 

Be careful what you wish for. BSA has been known to cave to peer pressure. All it takes is for one person to complain about WB "beading" ceremonies as cultural appropriation (use of beads, beads being Native American, etc.) and there go all your beads. Think it can't happen? Ask any Scouter who was in an OA ceremony team as a youth. No more "war paint", no more bare chests, no more firing arrows to start the fire, no more "taps" at tap outs.

Did BSA have stupid ceremonies that put people in danger? Sure. Using rubbing alcohol on someone's chest and lighting it was a baaaad idea. Hanging a Cub Scout upside down -- something he does 10 times during recess -- is NOT even close to being dangerous. Well, no more dangerous than allowing Cubs to do skits around a campfire, go door to door to sell popcorn to strangers, go to the restroom at night while camping or earning their whitlin' chip.

If adults keep taking away from the program the kids will stop coming. As noted above, did anyone ask the KIDS what they wanted?

When my son was too young for Cubs I kept telling him about Y Guides and how he could dress up like an indian and learn native crafts. He was stoked!! First meeting the leader gets up and says, "Sorry, no more dressing as indians and doing indian stuff. We are now 'Explorers'." My kid stood up and said "I'm outta here. Let's go dad." Just like that the entire "tribe" folded. 10 kids all psyched to learn and respect native culture, turned off because the adults had changed the program.

BSA is already headed down this path. You wait.

3 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I'm not sure what the problem is.  If they read the requirements, the Eagle project workbook and the application, that's about 95% of what you need to know right there.  I know that our council has on their web site instructions for setting up a project review, BOR, etc., I assume all councils do.  Perhaps that is a foolish assumption, but then someone can call council and find out who their District Advancement Chair is, call him/her and get the council/district-specific procedural information they may need.  Or the Scout can do it. 

The problem lies in the execution of the program. The 11-13 LDS units were totally focused on trail to FC and nothing else. Kids made FC, maybe Star, and then moved up to the 14+ unit. Since locally many of the leaders stay with one unit or the other, they get entrenched in their own littler Scouting universe.

Could they learn? Of course. But it seems few local units are willing to learn the Eagle process. Our unit has taken in 5 LDS kids so far as a result. They know we have a good mentoring program and that their boys will learn how to get to Eagle.

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think most people who THINK they favor "zero tolerance" don't really understand what it means:  No exceptions, no consideration of circumstances, no discretion, nothing.  I would bet there are people who favor "zero tolerance" who, if you told them the story of the Scout who had a small knife safely locked away in an emergency kit in his car and was suspended from school for it, would say, "Oh, THAT is going too far."  In other words, they would consider the circumstances - which means they are not really for zero tolerance.

I think the break down is in the definition. Zero tolerance should not mean leaving good judgement at the door. The law can be written to have judgement exercised while applying the intent of the rule.

Suspending a third grader for bringing a "splork" to school is different from another kid bringing a buck knife to school. Yes, even then both can be accidents and require judgement. And when one uses judgement you quickly discern which was truly an accident and which one wasn't.

3 hours ago, Back Pack said:

Our scoutmaster explained it like this:

- Philmont you put our name in for either a 7 or 12 day trek and for the number of crews. Consideration is given to past attendance, payment if monies due and good standing. 

- Seabase is different. You pick multiple treks on multiple dates. So if you want tall ships in June and just pick that you have only a few chances. But if you pick tall ships for any time that summer you have more chances. 

Northern Tier and Summit don’t seem to be in such high demand. We always got in when wanted. 

This is exactly right. Philmont is a one-shot submission. Seabase is a "rolling" lottery. Where most units fail is that they pick one trek on specific dates (e.g. third week in June). If they don't get that slot they're out of luck.

What is really scary is what could happen 5 or 10 years from now. Folks can make accusations well after-the-supposed-fact and you could be at risk. That's a scary proposition as a volunteer leader. Sadly one of many reasons why I "retired".

18 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

Col., I meant the boys in crews and teams are being moved back into the LDS troops. That way they can finish work toward Eagle and still go on high adventure trips, if they and the troop choose.

I don't think my LDS friends got the memo. Most of the crew and team leaders are retiring or going to work on other programs. The 11-13 year old units have no clue how to help guys get to Eagle. This is a big problem for those units which is why if any 14+ LDS Scouts want to make Eagle they are going to non-LDS units. Most, from what I am told, are Eagling-out and then they're done.

15 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

Troop does a yearly secret Santa (only around 12 scouts), and the troop is in a somewhat poor town. (Only myself and another scout come from a bordering town that doesn’t have that issue, but we stayed in the troop because we liked the troop.)

We have a limit of around $10, so I’m asking for a idea for a gift that is Scout related gift. 

Most scouts have no idea what, and I have no idea what.

We do White Elephant. Basically the same thing:

• Bring a wrapped gift of $10 or so.
• Can be food, toys, gags, etc., but must be Scout appropriate.
• Gifts go in to a pile and chairs in a circle around the pile.
• Guys each take a number (we have 75 Scouts).
• Scouts have 10 seconds to 1) select a gift, 2) "steal" a gift. Stolen gifts can only be stolen 3 times, then they stay with their fourth owner).
• Gifts have been Scout gear, candy, food items, bag of TP (obviously a gag gift), gift cards, etc.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I don't think checking paperwork comes under the heading of coaching. However, I am guilty of giving a scout a few suggestions to calm his nerves. I have also given the scout a few suggestions mostly to calm the nerves of the parents who are observing our SM Conference. 

Barry, this role came about in our unit due to an over-zealous district rep and a bit of shenanigans at council with regard to paperwork. We had a Scout kicked back to us because of a computer issue with council. His records were pristine, nonetheless, it took several weeks of calls and visits to council to get it straightened out. That was over 10 years ago.

Since putting our checks and balances in place we have had zero issues. In fact, the once grumpy (well, truth be told he's still grumpy, but not to us anymore) district rep barely passes an eye over our kids' paperwork. He knows it's 110% every time. I consider that part of adult leaders running interference for our Scouts. Sad it is needed.

1 hour ago, an_old_DC said:

Everything I have seen from National is that the boys +14 years old in crews and teams have been moved back into troops. LDS still charters troops--it's just crews and teams being dropped.

Locally this is correct with one exception: Boys over 14 are being given the option of going to troops. Few are from what I hear. Why? As leaders tell it 1) LDS boys are reluctant to join non-LDS units, and 2) Some guys are more in to other things than what non-LDS units do as Scouts. I asked a friend what that meant and he was pretty frank. He said his crew basically worked on stuff to get guys to Eagle and didn't do much "real Scouting" (his words). He also said the LDS guys in his old crew "weren't really in to Scouting" anymore.

I was wondering what the uptake is in other areas. It seems most LDS guys here are not going to "other units" as might be expected.

Ok, I've read the thread. Gotta say I am confused now more than ever. Our LDS leaders here locally are saying their 14 year-olds are "out". They noted that many will stick around and get their Eagle and then drop, and all LDS over-14 units would not recharter. All 11-13 year olds were welcome to stay in their units, and that there was an attempt to get them Eagle "as fast as possible". I took this to mean before they turned 14, but who knows.

Are my local LDS friends on the same page with the church? Or are they being cowboys?

23 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

His mother forces him, his mother is doing all the paperwork & did requirements, and chose a project that has no impact on anyone (painted a basement, painted floor is already chipping.) Comes late to every meeting, even though he lives across the street. His mother & him argue with me for no reason often as well.

In the end, @ItsBrian, the joke will be on that kid. His mom won't stop her meddling behavior. She will be second guessing him on who he dates, how he raises his kids, how he decorates his house and on and on it goes.

So while you will grow up a healthy male who has learned a great deal because your parent's didn't micro manage you (though I suspect they prodded you along the way, as most teens need at some point), this guy will end up with his mother breathing down his neck for the next 40 years. 

Time to thank your parents for doing what they've done. I know you will. And kudos to you for knowing what you want and going after it at such a young age.

On 12/6/2017 at 8:50 AM, gblotter said:

In rare circumstances, an Eagle Scout candidate may show at the BOR poorly-prepared to represent himself well. In those situations, the questioning can get difficult. This is not because we are asking tougher questions, but rather because the Scout is not prepared to answer the normal expected questions.

IMHO, preparing the Eagle for the EBOR is the role of the SM during the SMC. Making sure his paperwork is checked and re-checked is the role of the Eagle Coach/Coordinator. Yes, yes, of course it is ALSO the role of the Eagle himself...but the adult checks-and-balance is to prep him and make sure his documentation is clean, aligns with Internet Advancement and complete.

Not sure how other units do this, but our unit has done this going on over a decade. Luckily have not had any Scouts that were ill-prepared. We even had one Scout who suffered from anxiety issues. The SM advised him to mention this at the beginning of the EBOR. Once it was out on the table the anxieties went away. I'd never heard so much laughter in over 50 EBORs...he had them rolling. So much for anxiety. 

2 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Each school system is different.  Just relating what the local school system does.  My wife used to be an assistant principal, and she actually had to use the rule. 

Understood. My brother-in-law is a cop, my sister a dispatcher and my wife a teacher, so I get that rules need to be applied...even rules like this. But a two inch knife, obviously used for emergencies, kept in a car far from use and owned by a kid that is obviously honest and forthright, and to suspend him for 20 days!!!??? 

Good thing they didn't look for the tire iron, the lug wrench or the baseball bat in his back seat. He might have been expelled.

Just like the trooper that pulled our bus over, discretion must be used. He could have tossed our entire bus looking for "violations", but he decided that we were honest with him and making an obvious attempt to comply with the law -- a law that only applied to us for a few hours while we drove through his state.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

One was a scout who said he's only there because his dad makes him. (This came as a surprise to me because he seemed like one of the more enthusiastic young men in the bunch.)

But, if you heard this from your TG, how might you advise him and the SPL?

For my money the SPL and the PLC, along with the SM, are responsible for making the meetings interesting. One thing BSA does well is the availability of the Troop Program Resources and Troop Program Features. They have been available in PDF for as long as I can remember, and now they are available online.

A good troop should include how to use these tools as part of their TLT; making sure PLs and SPL/ASPLs can leverage these guides easily and properly. Once that's done, planning good meetings should not be a chore. It will never be 100%, but it will be a whole lot better than it was.

18 hours ago, perdidochas said:

Locally, the schools have a rule about such situations--it's called safe harbor, and basically, if a child realizes that they accidentally have a knife or lighter on them, if they turn it into the teacher as soon as they realize it, it will simply be confiscated until a parent can come pick it up. However, if they show it off to another child, or if it slips out of their pocket, then punishments will be enacted for the contraband. It's a pretty reasonable rule.  

Wasn't there an Eagle Scout that had a pocket knife in the flat bed tool box of his pick-up truck who was suspended under a zero-tolerance rule?

Edit: Found the story. Silly rule, poorly applied.

26 minutes ago, David CO said:

Nice backpedaling. I still don't agree with you, but I find this statement far less offensive than the first. 

You might want to take the chip off your shoulder. Not everyone who posts is trying to persecute you.

I made a statement and then explained it further. That's not back peddling. That's answering someone who is overly sensitive and tries to find fault or argument with just about anything. 

What I wrote was nothing that hasn't been written in here before.

14 minutes ago, David CO said:

I know a number of current and former Lone Scouts, myself included, who would be highly offended by that blanket statement.

Lone Scouts is it's own program. So obviously one cannot do Boy Scouts and use the Patrol Method as a Lone Scout.

I would argue though, Lone Scouts as a program, does not do the Scout as much service as the traditional Scouting program. For my money, while Lone Scouts are a way to boys cut off from units geographically involved in Scouting, it is not the ideal way (or even preferred way) to deliver the Scouting program. The Aims and Methods of Scouting back this up. How can LS's exercise leadership, association with adults and use the patrol method as a single, solitary Scout? There's 3 of 8 "methods" that cannot be fully met.

I am not saying they are any less of a Scout. I am saying that the program is not a robust as the full Scouting program. In my opinion, the only way to get the full appreciation for the Scouting program is using the Patrol Method.

14 hours ago, Stosh said:

@Col. Flagg I think the laws pertain to the length of the blade, not the knife opened. One might want to check the wording carefully with these laws.

In this case, @Stosh, it was blade length. There were several BSA pocket knife and Swiss Army blade lengths at the time 3", making them illegal in this state.

34 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Sad thing about Eagledad's comment about adults not understanding patrol method  is he is right, despite the fact that the former SM is a WB trained Scouter, the current SM is an Eagle, and the potential new SM is an Eagle. You would think that folks with experience would know better. I do know that regarding Scouts signing off on advancement,  the potential new SM Eagle had a bad experience and he is totally against it as a result.

[SNIP]

Anyway, what are your arguments for patrol method? How would you go about convincing adults to let Scouts sign off on advancement? How would you go about convincing adults le tthe Scouts make their own decisions, and suffer the consequences? How do you convinvce adults that the Scouts really know who the best leaders are? How would you convince adults that having families camp with the troop is a bad idea? Anything else i'm missing.

WB-trained Eagles or regular Eagles do not mean anything. I think we have all seen folks who are WB-trained, have fifty knots on their chest but are world-class micro managing, adult-led, bulldozer parents. I made the mistake long ago about equating years of service, level of service, position, training or "He's an Eagle" as persuading that person had more idea of what Scouting meant, or how to implement it, than I did. How wrong I was.

Arguments for the Patrol Method: 

1. It is the only way to do Scouting. Anything else is NOT Scouting.
2. Scouts sign off on advancement AFTER there is a program put in place to train them on how to teach core skills, ensure that sign off happens after EDGE is demonstrated and mastered, there is a method to check consistency either at the youth or adult level, and adults understand their role in the process.
3. Scouting is NOT about who are the best leaders. It is about learning and growing. You WILL have bad leaders. The SM's job is to put in place a training program that lessens how bad "bad leaders" are. This includes recognizing Scouts' strengths and weaknesses, helping them address these AND having those supporting the leader help him to be successful and not just walk away.
4. Family camping (currently) has no place in Boy Scouts. It erodes the patrol method, encourages helicopter parenting, robs the boys of leadership opportunities and growth. If you must have a family camp pick on camp out a year and invite family members. Otherwise if adults want to attend camp outs give them an application, make them take a role as an ASM and give them a concrete duty to perform that takes them out of the boys' hair.

I really don't envy you this task. It sounds like the parents in your unit are overly involved. Ours does not sound like it was as bad, but it did take us a while to cut the collective umbilical cords.