9muckraker7

What often happens when an organization changes its policies to cater to another's needs or convictions is reverse discrimination. If the BSA was forced to accept atheists as some would like, many people would be upset. The BSA would then be pressed to change its oath and omit the "duty to God" obligation, and then many other "complaints" invoking changes in the structure of the BSA would soon follow (people would argue the point of the scout law of reverence; people would argue the duty to one's country statement; people would challenge the Native American culture of the Order of the Arrow; people would argue other points of the scout law) and eventually anything "moral" in scouting would have a subtle religious connection and therefore have to be abolished. The BSA had to draw a line somewhere to preserve its values, and if that line is broken once, it will be broken again and again until the BSA becomes something very much different from the principles upon which it is based. I'm not saying that accepting atheism would be the wrong choice (I cannot provide a reasonable and unbiased validation if I did make such a claim), but the BSA respects the views of many other people, especially the religious organizations that sponsor local units.

I believe it is LORD Robert.

What reason would suffice? I think this topic has already been exhausted, and several valid explanations have already been offered. No one in here has tried to provide any reason which would be in direct contradiction of the BSA or its policies. Perhaps this requires a higher level of understanding, one that we are not capable of achieving simply by looking at everything so objectively.

Good post Eamonn.

I do not want to say that all atheists are going to deliberately discourage others from religion; that would be stereotypical. It is also stereotypical of me to think that all prostitutes, terrorists, racists, and child molestors are bad people and shouldn't be allowed in scouts. Who is to say that a convicted and self-proclaimed child molestor would not molest scouts? Who is to say that an atheist would not molest the rights to religious worship of scouts? NO ONE IS TO SAY THAT, but there are some things the BSA just feels safe to assume. But we all know what happens when we assume things...

Also, looking at this completely objectively, isn't it understood that a scout LIVE the scout oath in his daily life? If a scout refuses to live 1/3 of the principles of the scout oath, then is he still a scout?

I really do not have a problem with atheists, just as long as they do not try to discourage others from believing in God. I think the BSA has this in mind when reserving the right to disallow atheists membership. The BSA encourages the spiritual develop of scouts; therefore, it may seem appropriate that they reserve the right to deny membership to any who discourage the spiritual development in scouts. I'm not saying that all atheists will amorally discourage others from believing in God; I'm just trying to figure out the reason for this policy.

This question has come up in my lodge a couple times. Often there is a lack of communication between the Scoutmaster (or troop rep) and the newly elected ordeal candidates during the period after the election and before the ordeal; the candidate is never told when the sign-up nights for the ordeal are or when the actual ordeal is EVEN THOUGH this information is distributed to the scoutmasters upon the scouts' election. There is often about 50 elected scouts who seem to just completely forget about the OA because of this. There have been several phone calls from disgruntled scoutmasters who request that we have another ordeal (because of the said circumstances) after the two ordeals the lodge has each year have already taken place. Such an event would not be as hard to plan, as elections would not be necessary. The problem in doing this is ensuring that all of those 50 scouts (who hadn't made it to the past two ordeals) would attend the ordeal, instead of just 1 or 2 who are actually interested. There is not much of a way of knowing whether the problem which had occured several months prior (i.e the scouts being uninformed about the ordeals) would be corrected. Rather than trying to correct this problem by instituting an extra ordeal, the lodge executive committee has gotten around this problem by taking it upon themselves to establish close contact with the elected ordeal candidates themselves, rather than with the unreliable troop-reps or scoutmasters. Aside from the information they receive at their election, an informational letter is MAILED to the elected candidates, and a phone call is made. Therefore, any scout who does not attend either of the ordeals is just considered to have failed to prioritize his schedule and needs to wait until the next time he gets elected. This system of communication involves a great deal of work on the lodge's part, but even if it works just for one person, it is worth it.

While I agree that some restrictions must be imposed so as to conserve the environment, it is my firm belief that if we just let all domesticated animals [and fish] be, then they'd overpopulate the earth...There are 8 billion chickens in this world, so that would yield 1.25 chickens PER PERSON (there's about 6 billion people on earth). Instead of trying to protect the animals' rights, we should try to find a way to redistribute such sources of food to try to solve the problem of world hunger. If we were all to eat vegetables, and let cattle and pigs graze in the natural environment, the soil would be diminished of all its nutrients, plants would stop growing, and we would eventually have to resort to eating nothing but meat to survive. I think the world is fine as it is now, and as long as no one sees the animals in the slaughterhouse, no one should really care how what they're eating was killed. Of course i could go on for HOURS on this topic, but i think i'll just end it here. i've made my point.

No my lodge doesn't have an official neckerchief slide, BUT THANKS FOR THE IDEA!!! We produced a belt-buckle for this year; I think it's appropriate to also produce a neckerchief slide too.

My oldest memory of scouting and perhaps my fondest memory of cub scouting was working on my pinewood derby car with my dad for many weeks, only to lose the race horribly. I did this every year, each year working closely with my dad hoping that just one time I'd win. I never did, and it was usually the kid who had bought the "already made" pinewood derby car from a hobby shop (all he did was paint it and add weights) who won. It was not until many years after this that I had realized who really were the actual winners: I and my dad, and all those other cub scouts and their fathers who had poured their hearts into making the pinewood derby car.

In my troop, it's the adult leaders who need motivation! The scouts often suggest having a winter camping trip, but the adults always end up discouraging them.(This message has been edited by 9muckraker7)

Has a new vigil nomination/selection process been imposed by national? It used to be that anyone could nominate someone for the vigil honor, but now I hear that this nomination process is now the responsibility of a special lodge "committee". Would anyone know anything about this?

I wouldn't really call it pride, but instead happiness. I'm happy to be an arrowman. I'm happy to have realized the true meaning of scouting through my experience in the OA. I'm happy to share in the fellowship of my lodge and the rest of the OA. I'm happy to provide service to others. I'm happy to seek the higher vision, and I'm happy to show others the vision of scouting. Sure, all of these feelings could come with just being a scouter and not really an active member of the OA, but it was the OA that helped me realize all these great things about scouting, and it was the OA that inspired me to become involved. It was the OA that helped me to be a better person by living the scout law, and it was the OA that helped me to find meaning in my life. Well, maybe it isn't just happiness, but also thankfulness to be part of the vision of scouting. I'm thankful to be a member of my lodge, and I'm thankful for this wonderful organization of scouts and scouters who also share my sentiments.

This reminds me of an episode of South Park... The moral of that episode was that TOLERANCE does not mean ACCEPTANCE or AGREEING WITH someone's lifestyle, but rather simply PUTTING UP with it. Such "tolerance videos" are geared towards completely changing our views towards a group of people and by doing so make us feel guilty for not agreeing with their lifestyle. This is wrong, and no one should be forced to agree with a lifestyle they already disagree with. I feel that forcing an institution to agree with and "cater to" the minority is actually an act of discrimination against the majority. If the tolerance videos are to be shown so as to respect the rights of those who wish to show it (the minority), then there should be absolutely NOTHING preventing the majority from showing their own versions of "anti-tolerance" type videos; for every view expressed there must be allowed an opposing view.

Amen.

"While being a Boy Scout in this discussion, I'd have to say that I probably would just be a lazy, old bum doing absolutely nothing just like the rest of my school." "It just gets into you and then you cant help yourself." Amen, a million times!! My HARDCORE involvement in scouting has influenced my life so much that there's no telling where I'd be now. The friends I've made through my involvement in scouting have made such a tremendous impact in my life. I've seen so many other friends become less and less involved in scouting, and eventually I've lost touch with them.

Happy belated Thanksgiving to everyone in here. How ironic is it that only a day or two after Thanksgiving, a day of being thankful for what we have, we find ourselves making wishlists for the holiday season? If it were up to me, we'd have Thanksgiving on the third Thursday of DECEMBER, to coincide with the holidays, and to remind people to be thankful rather than "wantful." ..Just thinking out loud..

If wearing the "non-official" sash is with the discretion of the lodge advisor, then I really don't see anything preventing one from wearing it, especially if it's at a lodge event. Regarding national, regional, and sectional events, however, this might be some sort of "infraction," BUT, the most anyone would probably do about it would be to inform he who wears the sash that it isn't official and shouldn't be worn. I've never heard of any OA member be refused participation in an OA event just because he either didn't have a sash or if he had the wrong "type" of sash.

I've noticed that many times these lawsuits are brought up when the US government submits to the arguments of disingenuous citizens with nothing better to do who feel like their beliefs are being trampled on by the US government.

Well said, OGE.

Dr. Carl Marchetti would probably be the closest person I could think of who would fit these standards. He was responsible for implementing the "youth-run" Order of the Arrow program (on the national level), and recently recieved the OA "Legacy of Leadership" award. Even he, however, quoted: "If I have seen further than anyone else, it was because I was standing on the shoulders of giants." The "founding fathers" of the Scouting movement all played a vital role in forming and shaping the wonderful and nearly flawless scouting program we have now (BobWhite could testify to this). Because of their initial "vision," they've been remembered as the "legends" of scouting's storied history. The fact of the matter is that there is not much ANYONE can do today to dramatically "revolutionize" the program for the better. Sure, every Cheif Scout Executive has had his part in improving the program and perpetuating the vision of scouting's founding fathers, but the fact that it was their vision to begin with holds them above all the rest. This is usually how history plays itself out. American history has given us many presidents, but only a few have played a really big role in defining and shaping this nation (Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, to name a few). Who can honestly say that anyone's impact on this nation could even compare with that of those past "great" presidents? The constitution has already been written, by people who had a vision; it is up to us in this modern day in age to protect and defend this vision. (This message has been edited by 9muckraker7)

Welcome to the campfire. I couldn't agree more with your point of view, having experienced the same thing with my troop. The librarian and historian (as well as several others: quartermaster, chaplain's aid, bugler) often carry a very little defined position of responsibility; these positions are hardly "leadership" positions...they seem to have nothing to do with the patrol method and leading other scouts. This raises an obvious question: can these positions carry greater LEADERSHIP responsibilities? Often times, even the SPL and ASPL must be reminded of how it is their responsibility to make things work better for the troop; that's why we have adult leadership to guide them. Often times the patrol leaders must be "retrained" in how to lead their patrol. Only after months of "practice" [training being an ongoing process] do they really come to know what they're doing! HOWEVER, no matter how much training one has gone through or how long one's tenure is in the troop, only he who is completely willing to spend time applying himself (his resources, his time, his experience, his desire to serve) to the troop could truly be a LEADER. Because there is no type of training or resource for troop librarians or historians, they must learn and define what they could and should do to better the troop. Again, that's where the adult leaders (or more importantly the SPL) come in: to offer suggestions as to what the librarian/historian can do. Most pertinently [to this thread], how can he demonstrate leadership in applying himself to the responsibilities of his leadership position? How can he get the troop involved in what he does? The answer to these questions varies from troop to troop, as all troops are unique in their own way. Nonetheless, I'll offer a suggestion or two as to what they, as leaders of the troop, COULD do to improve the troop... ---The chaplain's aid should work on promoting and organizing the religious emblem program of the BSA. He should work with the interested members of his troop and help cooridinate/run the religious program of the troop. He should perpetrate both the first point of the scout oath and the last point of the scout law (duty to God; a scout is reverent) at every troop event, sharing prayers and encouraging other scouts to become religiously active. He should lead mealtime grace on troop outings. ---If it hasn't already been done, the librarian of the troop should work on organizing the troop literature: perhaps involving the scouts to collect/donate any literature they no longer need for advancement (namely, merit badge pamphlets), and constructing a "box" [for lack of better words] in which to store, organize, and transport all the troop literature to every troop event when applicable. Maybe the troop is lacking in UPDATED scout literature; the librarian could LEAD in organizing and running a fundraiser for the troop to buy updated literature. Surely, the patrol leaders and SPL and his assistant do have a lot more responsibility than the other positions, but that's why they have more of a say in what the troop does and how it functions (they have the privilege of being the PLC). The patrol method is the parameter of the troop program, and it is only right that those who are most directly involved in making the patrol method work are also those most involved in working with the scouts. Coclusively, I'd like to repeat myself in saying that "no matter how much training one has gone through or how long one's tenure is in the troop, only he who is completely willing to spend time applying himself (his resources, his time, his experience, his desire to serve) to the troop could truly be a LEADER."

These stories are indeed saddening. I've seen many a scout who have strayed from those values to which they'd pledged themselves. Stories like these may darken the picture some people may have of scouts, so it is up to us to make that picture brighter. The only way to do this is to keep on scouting; do your best in whatever you do; do a good turn daily; and be prepared. Living in such a way will ensure that you leave a legacy to be proud of. If only every scout truly did pledge himself to the scout oath and law, the world would be a better place. I'm thankful that so many scouts/scouters already do.(This message has been edited by 9muckraker7)

With all the "bad" news that the media seems to focus on, it is important that we hear some good news once in a while. Unfortunately, often times the cliche "no news is good news" prevails, and we're left with an image of a world of death, war, and strife. These pictures really brightened up my day, and it truly instills a new sense of pride for those people serving my country in foreign lands. Let these pictures remind everyone out there that there is good in this world, even if it's not widely publicized. http://www.veteranscava.org/photos_that_will_never_make_the.htm