Eagle94-A1

@@EmberMike ,

Correct. Anyone who has ever "stole" his Scouts is on his (expletive deleted) list. And several troops are on it as a result. I'm #1 on the list because I "betrayed the troop"  when I didn't force my oldest son into the troop

@@qwazse,

this is the leader who thinks he knows it all and will not listen to anyone's advice. Many have tried to help him, and they either died, got frustrated enough to say the heck with it, or they get on his (expletive deleted) list.

@@Stosh,

Part of the problem is that I do not think anyone in the troop realizes the situation except for the new ASM, and that was because I asked him about the recharter. He will view any attempt to help his scouts as "trying to steal them." Yes it's toxic IMHO, but most of the folks in the troop like its "high speed, low drag" approach to advancement. with the exception of the three new guys from my wife's webelos den, everyone is Life or Eagle.

Age is 16-17. No crews in the district at this time. As to transferring to another troop, I do not see that as a option as this is the troop that has issues with everyone else (I found out it's not just my troop and me the SM doesn't like, but I am public enemy #1 for him).

While I know BSA won't punish the Scout for the adults mistakes, seen that first hand, I wanted to know how it will be handled.

My understanding is that if the charter is turned in by closing time on Tuesday the 28th, it's in the grace period, and everything gets done OK.  If not, it;s lie it is a new unit, and nothing done Since December 31st counts, including the Eagle Board.

Curious as to what issues folks have seen occur when a Scout passed his Eagle BOR while the troop's charter lapsed?

Long story short, troop still has not turned in the charter, it was due December 31st, and the Life Scout passed last week. From the district commish, the SM is ignoring phone calls, emails, etc and the COR/CC are basically non existant with the unit, only on paper, so they cannot help.

I'm concerned for this Eagle in particular, but also all of the Scouts in the troop.

Have some evidence of being a member, and you should be good to go.  I have been in 5 different lodges, and it's never been a problem.

When my brother-in-law worked for the YMCA, 1970'1s, many of his "perks" for being the program director was he had many of the benefits given to clergy as if the organization was a church.  I don't know if that still holds true today.

When I worked for the YMCA in the early to mid 1990s, that was not the case. It was another non-profit.

Easy! By keeping up to date with the current standard, and then following it. At the present, we are told no more than three rows. So we keep no more than three rows until they say otherwise, then if they do alter their stance, we change accordingly. Simple!

 

Honestly, they aren't changing this policy every other week; and these 'back and forth changes' people claim to have been so confused about have been over the course of many years. This isn't hard to keep up with! It really isn't a big deal if every few years we have to take a few off, or put a few on - is it? I just don't get the problem I guess. Whatever is current, well, do that. Then if they change, a few minutes of sewing or cutting is all it takes to keep up to standard. The whole point is that it shouldn't be a big deal to make a few minuscule alterations if it means being properly uniformed. 

 

For some folks not so easy.  I mentioned trying to remove regional insignia from my time as a DE. Guess what, when I cut off the insignia, a very noticeable outline was visible. It went back on.

Same thing happened when I went to work with national supply. My boss wanted me to remove jambo insignia that I had on. When I cut off the patch, again it was extremely noticeable that the insignia was one there. Thankfully she listened to me, and asked her boss if jamboree insignia was authorized, and he said yes.

Regarding national changing uniform regulations, do you remember the screw up when the Centennial uniform came out? That was a fiasco because no one had a clue as to what was going on as there was no insignia guide and they changed the guidelines 4 times in a 9 month period for Webelos and Cub Scout leaders. First we went the way of the Boy Scouts with green on tan numbers and green on tan trained strip.Then it went to red on tan numbers (pics of those are on the net somewhere, but they were never issued) with green on tan trained strip, Then it went white on red numbers and old red on tan trained strip that didn't fit on the "smokes pocket". Then it went back to all green. There was so many conflicting guidelines coming out of national, I actually called my old boss in supply to try and get the official answers. When I got the "official" answer from national supply, I bought the uniform to those specifications. Guess what changed a month after I bought a new uniform, with all new insignia? You got it, I had to bet all new numbers and trained strip. Grant you it may seem minor, but that was money I could have used, and time sewing I could have done something else. And then a year or two later, they change guidelines again. ANY color trained strip can be worn by any trained individual, it was no longer color specific.

See where some folks here can get frustrated? And now they are saying adults can wear patrol emblems? Guess what happens if they change back to the policy of no patrol patches for adults, except during wood badge.

Then you get into the question of Vintage uniforms. Did you know at one time adults could wear military ribbons with their Scout uniform? We had one long time Scouter with a vintage uniform from that era. Guess what he wore with it?

I admit I get a little heated on this topic. In this neck of the woods, uniform inspections are part of the Webelorees and camporees as an event. In the past the top patrol or den has been determined by uniform inspection scores. And I've had to defend Cubs and Boy Scouts from overzealous uniform inspectors because the Scout bought or was handed down a uniform with one set of insignia THAT WAS CURRENT WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLY PURCHASED ( emphasis, not shouting at ya ) but national has since changed the insignia. And with some of these Scouts, having a uniform IS a big deal. That is when I I go into "Vintage Uniforms," which are still authorized for wear. heck somewhere around the office is a file with all the variations of the Centennial Uniform From August 2008 when the uniform first came out, until May 2009 when a Insignia Guide came out. Yes I had to bust the folder out a few times to help some Scouts out. I point out to the inspector the Scout is in a Vintage 2008-2009 uniform.

I find it funny that we are commenting on a recommendation to limit knots to 9, when that number has been non-existant, them limited (12), then gone up(15), and now down again to 9, and now we are told that adults can wear patrol emblems on their uniforms because "the BSA’s official stance is it doesn’t say you can do it … but it doesn’t say you can’t," BUT the Guide to Awards and Insignia states patrol emblems are for "Boy Scout", not "Boy Scout and Boy Scout Leader."

If national can not be consistent, how can us volunteers be?

What does your son want to do? It's his court of honor, he should do what he wants.

I was a professional for a little under 2 years as a DE, and a little over 2 years for national supply. While the national supply gig was OK, but there was a lot of pettiness there. 

But the DE gig was hell. My council went through 9 DEs, a Field Director, and a Finance Director while I was there. One of my coworkers had a nervous breakdown while I was a DE, 3 of my coworkers got divorced either while I was working or while I was volunteering. One of the three divorcees also had a nervous breakdown due to the work stress and the divorce, which was caused by work.

My wife, who was dating me and engaged to me while being a DE, saw what it was doing to me, and our life together. She gave me an ultimatum within 6 weeks of our wedding: her or the job.  Needless to say I made a good decision.

I was active on the district and council level prior to becoming a DE. I shadowed them multiple times. And it did not prepare me for the reality.

He's also considering professional Scouting

To quote the 9th Doctor, "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!"

To quote a long time Scouter I respected when I told him I was applying to be a DE, "Have you lost your [expletive deleted] mind? Jesus have mercy on your soul."

Being a pro is rough, can be extremely stressful, and is not working with youth. I hope he shadows some pros before entering the profession. And even then, shadowing versus reality is completely different. I shadowed my DE, and it did nto cover nearly enough.

Why if you have a good pro, they are worth their weight in gold.

If that's what they think they aren't folks I want to know anyway. I have found the more knots or beads the less they actually know...but they THINK they know a great deal.

Yes, it was interesting. And I admit I was misguided at the time. I had problems with folks dealing with "a Scout" as they kept calling me as a young Scouter under 24. I went after the Scouter's Training Award with a passion thinking it would shut them up and listen to me. Didn't work.

Thankfully the next group of Scouters I worked with were a lot better. While initially skeptical of a brand new, just out of college DE, they gave me a chance and let my actions speak.

A couple of comments.

First regarding

"#2 - Explorer Silver Award Knot, used for * Explorer/Air Explorer Silver Award * Explorer Achievement Award * Explorer G.O.L.D. Award * Explorer Scout Ranger Award (when its unique knot was dropped early on) * Air Scout/Air Explorer Ace Award (again, when its unique knot was dropped early on)"

You could also add Young American Award to the list. That was an Exploring recognition that council's and national gave out. Don't remember if regions did or not. I had a friend recognized as with the Young American Award. My current council would recognize 1 youth from each high school in the council with the award.  2 national Young American Award recipients came from my council.

Regarding the number of knots someone wears, as mentioned in his response, that number has gone up and down over the years. (Except for Sea Scouts and their leaders, Those involved in Sea Scouting have been limited to 6 since I was a Sea Explorer back in the day.) You got long time Scouters who still have the same uniform since forever. I know I got shirts over 20 years old that I still wear. Sometimes it's easier to leave something on than to take it off, and have, for lack of a better term, tan lines on your uniform. I still got regional insignia on 2 shirts because when I tried to take it off when I was no longer a DE, it was noticeable that  a patch was worn there. Ditto with another patch.

And unfortunately I've ran into some "good old boys" networks where if you don't wear knots, you are considered to not know anything. Similar to those folks who think if you don't wear beads, you don't know squat.

IMHO, wear what you are comfortable with. Except those in Sea Scouting, then we can only wear up to six.

Wow.  That was really not helpful and kind of mean spirited to be honest.  I'm sorry I asked.

 

There are 4 of them moving as a patrol and they have been arguing among themselves for several weeks about the best patrol yell.  I thought if I had a few fresh ideas for them maybe they could all agree and get started on the right foot.

 

And FYI our troop patrols use their yell at the end of every meeting.

As someone else mentioned, there is a VERY big difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. One thing I tell new adults in the troop is that "you must unlearn what you have learned" as Master Yoda would say. Our job as Scouters, notice I do not use the term "leaders," is to let them figure it out for themselves, even failing in whatever task is given to them, while making sure they are in a safe environment.

Trust those of us who have been around a while when we say:   Adult interference causes more long term problems than it solves short term problems. Adult interference nearly destroyed my troop because too many adults were jumping in to help when they should have said, " Ask your PL." and "Not my problem."

Let me guess, ROTHCO brand jungle boots?

I had a similar experience, except it was on a weekend canoe training trip that the soles came off. Week old ROTHCO jungle boots. Thankfully we had duct tape, and I was able to return them to get the ALTAMA USGI jungle boots. Those boots lasted for years, 15+, until they got lost in a move and I got a replacement pair.

Last time I did canoe training, some of the Scouts thought it was funny that I was wearing combat boots instead of water shoes. When 3 Scouts lost a shoe(s) and a few others had their shoes come off in the mud, they understood.

Finally

WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm for it, but with this caveat.

Way back in the day, one of my JLTC staffers, the predecessor to today's NYLT, did just what this Venturer is doing: attend Wood Badge after going through NJLIC (today's NAYLE) and staffing JLTC. When I asked him about taking Wood Badge, he told me " It was a waste of time and money. Everything we learned and taught in JLTC was covered. Wait until you are out of Scouting for a while and need a refresher."

As others have said, not your problem.

Three things you need to memorize if you will have anything to do with Boy Scouts.

1: "Have you asked your patrol leader?"

2: "Not my problem."

3: ' Where's the coffee ( hot cocoa for our LDS brethen)?"

I'm currently the CS RT Commissioner, but of late been doing both since there is no BS RT Commish.  If it's done right, it is a great tool. I know when the new CS program came out in 2015, the RT sessions were great, but A) everyone was interested and B) materials were pretty good from national.  

As someone else mentioned, the quality of the RTC is the key. We had great RTCs and attendance was through the roof. And we had lousy RTCs who practically destroyed RT. Then you got the caretaker RTCs, who are doing their best until someone can replace them. 

@@Bugeyes,

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

2) You said, "My girls are also part of coed BSA programs, one being a pilot program based on Venturing but for middle school ages (which I am associate advisor for). We have a lot of interest in my district for trying something similar for Cub ages."

Could you giove some specifics on the pilot?  As you can guess, there is a lot of interest in it.

It's hard enough that getting fifth graders to adapt to camping without mom and dad. Couldn't imagine them doing it earlier.

 

Why not just have the PARENTS of Webelos get more involved and deliver a good Webelos program? Make it more outdoors and more camping. My guys camped monthly for nearly two years. Weren't bored. It's all what the leader makes of it.

This, along with the Where's the Adventure thread got me thinking. In my expereince, with the exception of a few cases, it is THE PARENTS (emphasis) that have the hardest time letting go when their sons become Boy Scouts. Best Example, but worst case, is the 2 Moms who plan on going to summer camp with their sons.They have been informed that A) they will not be interfering with their sons B) they will be taking training and other classes, and C) THEY WILL NOT BE HOVERING AROUND THEIR SONS.  We had a dad that planned to go with his son, but the $180 adult fee got him. But these moms are a different story. Part of me wishes I was going to summer camp to help the Scouts keep parents away. Part of me is glad I'm not going and having to deal with the headache.

And yes, the transition from Cubs to Boy Scouts is a good time to reeveluate participation. there have been a few cases where the new scouts realizing they are on their own have decided to leave. And there are some who cross over who are no longer interested in Scouting but are forced to participate by their parents. I really wish Mom and Dad would realize how much their son's negative attitude and lack of caring impacts those who want to be there. 

It's hard enough that getting fifth graders to adapt to camping without mom and dad. Couldn't imagine them doing it earlier.

 

Key to this is start them early. My middle son's Webelos Den did Castaway Adventure (aka Wildersness Survival Lite) either as individuals or on their own. In fact two of the guys freaked out a DL from another troop because they had their shelter built, fire lit, and cooking lunch while his den was still trying to get organized and build a group shelter.

Their first camp out with the troop will be this weekend.

My thoughts.

#1 BSA changed its program in 1972 to make it more relevant and it was a failure. William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt had to come out of retirement, bring back traditional Scouting skill, and save scouting.

#2 Scouting's decline in the 70s caused some very questionable actions among professional staff.And that continued until the 2000s when pros were being charged with fraud. IMHO you got to take the membership stats from that 30 year period with a grain of salt.

#3 At least in my neck of the woods, Scouting is really suffering since the membership policy changes. We lost 1/2 our district committee, and several units.

#4 not everyone wants traditional Scouting. But if BSA tries to do everything aka STEM, it will not do it well, and everything wills suffer.

Not necessarily. 

Oh I agree. I know I made mistakes. Biggest one was when I was a brand new DL, I sometimes treated them as Boy Scouts and expected them to act like Boy Scouts. Then get upset when they didn't meet the expectation. MISTAKE!

I agree the more training the better, especially for Troops, Ships, and Crews.  But brand new Cub parents may not know what's up, or may find out the little training needed to be a Cub leader. The knots tell them someone has a clue as to what is going on

The knots is what I mean.

They may not know what service stars mean. And having a trained patch for some may not mean much since they were recruited as a leader with their Cub and know they have to do online training only. But having the knots, even if they do not know what they mean are somewhat reassuring in my experience. And I also found the knots to be a convesation starter.