WisconsinMomma

@MattR are you going to talk to your DE about your feelings and let him know you're feeling micromanaged?  You should!  Get him off your back.

Everybody is conditional.  

Now I can understand that if people spend more time complaining than Scouting, that's a problem.  But if people want to do Scouting, then get Scouting!   Do the parts you like to do and don't stress over the rest of it! 

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

I can't speak for @cocomax, and I appreciate your teaching baloo, but I can generally say solid unit leaders should focus their time and talents on their units.  It isn't the unit leader's job to fix the district.  It's the district's job to serve the unit.  That is especially true for direct contact leaders.

But if everyone is working on their units, then how does the district run?  Everybody working on district is giving a little extra time to Scouting beyond the unit level.  If everyone did a little bit, it would make it easier for everybody. 

Furthermore, if the Scouts are running the program and Patrol method, don't the adults have more time on their hands???

On 8/31/2018 at 11:42 PM, cocomax said:

It was IOLS,   The evening was all leave no trace, all flip charts.   In the morning we watched a guy cook us breakfast over a large camp stove and we ate on paper plates. We had a class on the flag and posting the colors that was all flip charts.  Next class was on wood tools, we got to look at axes, saws, and knives (but not touch), we learned the safe way for a scout to use an ax is to hold the ax against the wood and hit the back end of the ax with a hammer. The instructor told us that there was no way to sharpen a saw and she did not know how to sharpen an knife so we skipped that.  Next was map and compass and GPS, but they did not bring any maps, they had one compass, with a big bubble, but the instructor did not know the basics on how to use a compass like what the difference between magnetic north and true north we did not get to touch the compass.  She showed us how to find north with a stick, you just stick a stick in the ground and the shadow always points north.  Oddly she put the stick in the ground, but the rest of us didn't.  The first and last hands on thing we got to do was learn to tie a square not, the two 14 year old eagle scouts that showed up to teach knots sadly could not remember how to tie a bowline, sheet bend, double half hitch or taint line, but they did know the square knot really well and we all got to tie square knots.   Next a very over weight guy showed up with a back pack and showed use how to use a bear canister, where to buy them, how to carry them, covers for them, how you always have them and how to pack a back pack with clothes to keep warm, and always bring cotton clothes, he ended with a talk on leave no trace, and how it is important that we pack out any trash we find.  Then they tried to talk use into taking wood badge for an hour.  Then they signed a card and handed it to us and we went home, some of the other scouters left a lot of trash on the ground. I stayed behind and picked up the trash and was the last to leave.  

I offered to help a few times, but was soundly told no, I was not qualified to offer instruction. So I kept my mouth shut. 

. . . I ran 21 weeks of outdoor summer camp for 6 to 12 year old kids, was a logger for 10 years, camped in the woods more than 2000 nights, (I HAVE SEEN SOME THINGS OUT THERE IN THE WOODS!) hiked on 50 milers, got lost a few times and had to use a map an compass to find my way. . . was a natural/science teacher for 7 years . .  a boy scout for 6 years. . .  I have done hundred of stage shows by myself. . .    so it was really odd for me to sit there and be taught by people that do not know what they are talking about and some never even camped one night in the woods. . . nobody cared who I was. . . all they know about me was I was not a wood badger and therefore not really anyone of importance. . .

But I was so good!  I smiled nodded my head and kept my mouth shut. I did not make trouble for nobody!

It was great to get back to my troop, my second family,  and told the adults the good news of what I learned at IOLS, we all had a good laugh.   

    

So, have you since volunteered to be an IOLS trainer for your Council?

I taught portions of BALOO in the Spring, my first time teaching it, and I am sure there are people who had more experience than I did taking the course.   Of course, I invited comments in some areas, like Geocaching and I asked if people had experience with it, but when I did a segment on basic First aid and CPR, I taught it exactly to the BSA guideline.  If a person knew all the material coming in, at least they were able to hear me reinforce that YPT is non--negotiable, don't make up your own loopholes. 

That's not really the point. The point is that I am a person willing to volunteer for a 12-hour day of training and prep for that class.  Are you? 

I'll just throw in that scoutmaster conferences and boards of review at camp are not always the best environment for the scout to succeed in.  Our Troop has a new scout weekend and they have tried to do all this advancement stuff at the end of the outing, and it's a big fail -- you've got 11 and 12 year old who are exhausted and it's 10 o'clock at night and there's no point.  We discussed this at committee and I think this year they will do the advancement stuff after they get back home when the kids are fresher.

The same kind of thing happened with my son as he worked towards First Class.  He was going to have a BOR at camp and he basically refused to do it -- it was not the right setting or time for him.  Three weeks later, he did wonderfully with a board of review around the dining room table when he was not worn out from a full week of summer camp. 

5 hours ago, Saltface said:

I’d be curious to know what Bear or Wolf den leaders found most useful at WB (other than how to deal with other adults).

 

 I think the best thing you get out of Wood Badge is meeting other great Scouters from your area.  It's the networking, and meeting great people inspires you to live the Oath and Law. 

5 hours ago, Saltface said:

That would depend on your Scouting experience and previous exposure to Stephen R. Covey. Two years might still be the best generic answer for a Scoutmaster or ASM. 

I’d be curious to know what Bear or Wolf den leaders found most useful at WB (other than how to deal with other adults).

I went to Wood badge right after my second son crossed over to Boy Scouts, I had graduated as his Den Leader, and I was continuing with Cubs as Assistant Cub Master.   My husband is going to WB this year, his third year as an ASM.  (I'm a Fox married to a Bear.)  I sell Wood Badge to cub level Scouters by saying that I was never a Boy Scout, and Wood Badge lets me experience Scouting the way my boys will in their troops, so it's a great chance for non youth members to get more of a taste of what it's like for the boys. 

I am so happy to hear that you got a very clear response and support.  That's excellent. 

I have mixed feelings about bringing in girls early and going coed.  I think that following the rules of separate troops and dens is good.  I think giving girls experiences is also good.  When you decide to skip the rules it gets a little confusing to go on your own.  I think it's interesting that this CO said, "push the boundaries".  I wonder what kind of CO would do that? 

I guessed this was in California, but it's in Minnesota, which is too close to home for me!  

If I had daughters, I think I would want my daughters in a troop that follows the program.  Because if a CO is winging it, do they lack discipline across the entire program?  Do they follow YPT and the guide to safe scouting?  How do you know what program you are getting if the organization is making stuff up as they go? 

I was talking with some friends last night and one recounted a story of a near drowning on a Girl Scout outing.  I am sharing this only to emphasize why the BSA's (is that still the right abbreviation?)  Safe Swim Defense guidelines are important and useful.

Girl Scout overnighter at a campground, note, not a scout camp

Most parents not on trip

Pool with no lifeguards

No one really supervising

No swim test

Do you see where this is going?

My friend who is a lifeguard and swim instructor decided to rent a cabin at the campground and take the rest of her family.  Her daughter in GSUSA tent camped with her troop.  My friend was hanging out and drinking / relaxing.  My friend was not in charge of this trip, not the leader, not the planner, just a parent who decided to come along for the ride. 

She was a little inebriated and talking to another adult when she noticed "grabby hands" in the pool and went over to tell the girls it's not safe, when she saw the terror in the girls' eyes.  About 4 kids in the fray.  One not a strong swimmer, pulling on the other kids.

My friend tried a reach but could not reach, entered the pool, holding one side of the pool, grabbed two kids and got them out of the pool, the other adult helped pull the two girls out of the pool.

I was kind of shocked hearing how this event was (not) planned, knowing at least some of the conditions for a BSA safe swim area.

I am thankful for BSA's safety rules.

Note -- Parents should ask questions about swimming safety, lifeguards and conditions on outings.  Leaders, don't roll your eyes at that one.  

On 8/2/2018 at 12:19 PM, Eagledad said:

And, I believe they would admit that the adults they have to call down generally moms.

Barry

 

Barry, really.   This thread is about a male ASM losing it on kids in the Troop.  There are high-strung men and women who are a problem for the program.  Don't bash the moms. 

On 8/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, bearess said:

 He’s a SuperScout— Eagle, Wood Badge instructor, etc.  Getting rid of him, full stop, will be tough, and may not happen.  Focusing on that as a goal might not be realistic.  I don’t know.

 

Oh Gawd, a SuperScout.  I feel bad for you.  But, hey,  a guy doesn't get a pass on crap behavior towards kids just because he got an Eagle.   He doesn't have special privileges, he's supposed to be giving service, doh!   Have you had a talk with him directly and let him know you don't appreciate his behavior?  Maybe a little momma bear will help him wake up.   I don't mean an angry momma bear, but you can look him in the eye and tell him that his behavior is a problem and you need him to calm down.  The best way he can serve your son and the Troop is to give the kids some space to learn on their own.  

It depends, some Scouters hate women and won't respect a mom.  I hope he's not that kind. 

Yes, but, this adult is not teaching the Scout Oath and Law.  He does not belong in uniform, and Bearess should bring out the nukes, i.e. inform the Scout Executive and ask for help to resolve the situation so no other kids are harmed. 

Tell me, why should this adult stay in a leadership position?  Give me a few good reasons. 

The kid appears resilient, but that does not excuse the adult's behavior.  

Ugh, I am so sorry Bearess.  

Your son does not need to leave.  This adult needs to step down.   Screaming at a boy until they cry is not appropriate.

I think you should call the Scout Executive and have a conversation, so this is documented very specifically.  Get it on the record.  Then the Council can decide whether their volunteer deserves another chance to humiliate and bully children or not.

The kids need to see consequences for bad behavior.   

12 hours ago, bearess said:

I’m a den leader, and I agree with whoever said that it seems superfluous at this level.  I’m sure it’s a good training, but.....I don’t feel I need leadership training to run herd on first graders!  I’m my son’s den leader now, and I’ll stick with that for four more years.  After that, I’d like to go back down and be a Tiger Leader in perpetuity.  I’d even do Lions!  I just don’t feel that a ton of training is needed for that......

I took Wood Badge when my two older boys were just starting Boy Scouts. I am still involved with my youngest in the Cub pack, but if we all stick with Scouting, I'm going to be in the program for the next 10 years.  Might as well get trained.  BALOO is important for Cub Scouting.  I recommend Wood Badge to people who expect to be active in Scouting for many years, and for people who did not grow up in Scouting and would like to experience the patrol method firsthand.  My involvement in Scouting is increasing a lot through the Wood Badge ticket work... which is likely a lifelong commitment to Scouting. 

If any of my sons earn Eagle, it will be interesting to see what they want for Court of Honor. I can see my oldest wanting something short, short, short and sweet.  The other two might like the pomp and circumstance.  As  I progress towards Wood Badge completion and hopefully, beading, I have to decide if I want something short and small, or invite a lot of people from WB class.  It's nearly the same thing as COH and I can see pros and cons of going bigger or smaller. 

Thanks for the replies everyone, the guys have a plan to talk with both families.  Just keep them in your prayers, hopefully it will all resolve well.  

Hi Eagledad, it's fresh news, like in the last 24 hours, so yes, they need to get on it. 

2 hours ago, David CO said:

This is a sure-fire way of guaranteeing that older scouts will leave the unit. Word will get around that the parents are anxious about their kids hanging out with older boys, even if there is "little to no evidence" that any wrongdoing is actually taking place.

 

Yes, but we can't let an 11 or 12 year old fend for himself against a 16 o 17 year old, either.   The kid's dad is the retiring Scoutmaster and the kid will be going for Eagle scout probably within the year, very smart, athletic kid, ambitious. It is a bit delicate.  But there is a complaint from the parent of a young scout so that's a legitimate starting point for investigating the issue. I imagine that if bullying is happening, it's a bit of alpha male pecking order type posturing, who's strong, who's on top and who's not strong and not on top. 

Great feedback, keep it coming.  Dad is Scoutmaster who is finishing up his term and he's a good Scoutmaster.  Incoming Scoutmaster is good, too we have a lot of really good adults in the troop. I am not sure if kid is SPL now, he was SPL earlier, and they just had elections (I would have a hard time imagining bad behavior getting voted in, but, it's very possible).  I will share all your great feedback with my husband later today.  Hopefully they'll have an easy time working through it all. 

Hi Scouters,

My family returned from summer camp and last night I was chatting with my husband.  He asked me how I would handle a bullying situation.

I said, the Scoutmaster needs to deal with it and you need to let the Scoutmaster and the CC know. 

He said, I'm an ASM, I'm responsible too.

I said, yes, make sure the SM and CC are on it. 

Anyway, we talked about it a little more and here is the situation as I understand it.  

An older scout in leadership may be bulling younger scouts. But there is very little to no evidence. My husband said he had another kid in a headlock in a summer camp in years past.  The situation seems to be one where, the older Scout is smart and only bullies when there are no adults present, and no one is seeing anything.  Also the scout's father is in Troop leadership. My husband thinks we may have lost a few younger scouts if they were bullied in years past, but again there is no real evidence.  

I encouraged my husband to work with the CC.  Our SM position is in transition.  

I also told my husband that I feel that this older Scout cannot be left alone in the future.  As much as we say we don't want helicopter parents, if there is suspected bullying then I think that the adults must ensure that there is no opportunity for a kid to get away with harassing another kid.   If there is bullying, it is certain that other Scouts witnessed it, but nothing has been said about this scout (in leadership, and his Dad is in leadership too, so who are they going to talk to?)   So this situation needs to be monitored for a while.  The kid is innocent unless there is evidence but it is a challenging situation. 

Apparently one of the parents of a new scout has sent an email with a concern re: bullying.

I also let my husband know that the Scout Executive was a resource.

I am sure you have better advice because it is hard when you are close to a situation and the people.  What do you recommend?  

Thank you!!

OK, personally, I don't think this is your problem.  I know it is frustrating.  You are not the Scoutmaster, right?  This is not your problem.  This scout will have to start tenting if he cares about advancement.  

I hope your sons had fun at camp.  Try not to stress over stuff that is not your problem.  I am sorry but it's not worth your time.  If you are advancement chair, make sure you push back on advancement if stuff is getting overlooked. 

On 6/19/2018 at 6:33 PM, FireStone said:

I agree civics is lacking in this country, but is Scouting the best venue for teaching it? Seems like we're picking up the slack where schools should be doing a better job. 

Personally I'd be fine with seeing all Citizenship MBs gone. 

It's easier to work the scout program than to fix the schools.  

I also think with boys, you don't know what they are absorbing.  Exposure is good. If they don't look like they are paying attention, they might still be paying attention, you know?   And it can take a lot of repetition for boys to get the hang of things.  

I'm jumping in without reading the whole thing.

I like some of the bookish Eagle merit badges.  Communication is an important skill, so is personal finance.  I think Family life is very good.  If Scouting teaches Citizenship, I think a Citizenship merit badge is good, but maybe it could be condensed?  I don't know though,  Cit in the Nation was extremely thorough and would be great at helping a kid in school, and probably covers *more* than school does. And that is good.  We don't want to lose education in citizenship.

I think these life skills, like Cooking, are a big part of "adulting" that seems to be getting lost.  I like those merit badges.

Just have to mix that with some real fun and goofy stuff and keep it balanced.  

I do think troops should be separate gender and that summer camps should offer a girls week or a boys week, so that there are opportunities to be single gender.

41 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

There once was an age restriction of sorts, one had to be First Class to work on merit badges and only your next rank could be worked on. 

Some of the merit badges are more for younger scouts.  Sculpture is easy,, Leatherwork, there's something for everybody.   I wouldn't give more restriction.  I think that middle school scouts have more time on their hands than the high school kids who have jobs and college applications and honors classes and more intense sports, etc.