DuctTape

That's not swimming then, it is floating. 

???????

As long as the troop is using the methods of Scouting and following the "rules" regarding youth protection, guide to advancement etc... I see ultimate leeway. The council and district events are not necessary. Whether or not the troop is actually providing a true scouting program via the methods is a different question altogether.

I am not a lawyer, and have not read about the case. So with that, please correct me if I am in error.

I thought a "hate crime" was an elevation of a criminal act not a criminal act in and of itself. So burning an (israeli) flag is not a crime, but a crime involving the flag and the expression of the alleged perpetrators could raise the crime level to a "hate crime".

Is this correct?

Use the method of adult association via scoutmaster conferences to help the youth leaders achieve scouting's aim of making ethical choices within their programming decisions.

One way to encourage the scouts to have their handbook for signoff (As an aide from the cell phone issue) is to have them present it when they "request to be tested".. This also helps with the issue you presented in the other thread abput when do they get signed off. I am with you that it without botes, or assistance. The scout learns, practices, then is tested. The sign-off occurs with successful passing of the test. 

59 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I agree, to an extent.  I don't think it's acceptable to have ten patrols of two Scouts or seven patrols of three.  The 1942 Handbook for Scoutmasters has a good guide for re-establishing patrols.  Essentially, the boys vote by secret ballot on who they would want to be in a patrol with.  The SM takes the results and creates the patrols.

My 1968 SM handbook also says the same as your 1942. However, I did say the SM should be counseling the boys to help them make decisions. There is also nothing wrong with parameters of the patrol size as per the handbook to mitigate the unlikely result you posited. Also by giving them the authority it begins the process of them making the troop decisions, also when something goes wrong within a patrol they cannot look to you as the culprit. Thus I still suggest having them make the patrols with your guidance.

Adults meddling with who is in which patrol rarely works out. I'd suggest giving the authority back to the scouts to create their patrols. SM conferences with SPL and other (youth) leaders consistently to help them make good decisions. 

1 hour ago, Armymutt said:

One of the points he brought up is that none of the patrols have an identity.  These kids are amazingly observant beyond where we were in the early 90s.  I don't think you'd have found a single one of us making that observation.  We have four patrols.  Patrol 1 has one Star who randomly appears, 1 2nd Class, 1 TF, 3 Scout, and 1 no Rank who has been there for about a year.  Patrol 2 has 1 1st Class, 2 TF, and 4 Scouts.  Patrol 3 has a 17 y/o Life who actually wants to help lead,  1 1st Class, 1 2nd Class, 1 TF,  and 3 Scouts.  Patrol 4 has 9 Scouts with Ranks from Life to Eagle, 3 of which actually participate.  The active ones ditch the rest at their table and walk around to help the younger Scouts.  The other four who generally show up, treat the meeting little differently than hanging out at some other place.  Honestly, if those guys quit, there'd be no net loss in leadership or productivity.  None of those four want to go camping or participate in outings, Eagle projects that aren't their own, etc.  

All that is to say that it's clear this troop has been pretty close to Webelos 3+ for a while.  To jump start things, I recommended that our campout this weekend focus on advancement, or at least be planned with an eye to advancement for the 1st Class and below.  One of the requirements for Tenderfoot is to assemble a personal first aid kit.  I identified that as something that needed to be done as part of prep and sensitized the SPL to that point.  The acting SM asked me if we should bring a bunch of first aid supplies out to the campout for the Scouts to use to assemble kits.  To me, that's not the Scouts assembling a first aid kit.  That's the Scouts selecting materials from those provided by the adults.  I want to encourage them to actually open the handbook, read through it, think about what cases they might encounter, make a list, and then procure the items.  

How were these "patrols" created in the first place? 

34 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

This occurs in units where the youth leaders are not contributing to unit performance. Most of the time the adults are assisting the leadership to the point that they are preventing bad decisions from interfering the activities. 

Ambitious Scouts will rise up into leadership positions in units where the scouts are held accountable for program performance.

And also where SMs abdicate their responsibility to have regular SM conferences with the PLs and SPL to help them grow as servant leaders.

A high quality SM or ASM knows how to listen, ask questions to help the leaders reflect on their patrol decisions.

Yes, focus should be on patrol activities. As far as adults, transportation etc... the numbers still work. 2 cars to transport a patrol is 2 adults. 

I firmly believe the slow methodical demise of the patrol method is the demise of scouting to truly achieve its aims. It is within the patrol, as a functional member where the lessons which develop the scouts character are born, bred and raised. 

Perhaps I am incorrect, I thought the participation in the ceremony was as part of the team conducting it. Saluting and the PoA is as an attendant or spectator. Easy enough to do at a troop meeting instead of having the flags already set up on poles, have scouts present them by walking them to their position in a ceremonial procession. Perhaps this should be the standard operating procedure. Where else will they practice this prior to the troop being asked to perform this by another organization? 

On campouts, it is easy enough to rig a flagpole and do the raising/lowering as part of the standard program.

In general most rank requirements should be able to be accomplished via participation in the standard program. If the program does not have it, then that is an area of growth for the program. Also if it is part of the standard program, the "one and done" complaints are moot.

This would be really neat to look at. If you do get them, could you scan it to share?

The merit badge counselor is of great importance here. 

It has been a while, but I do believe the requirements do state to carry everything throughout the trek.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Biggest problem in my neck of the woods is that no one wants to deal with council. Folks are burnt out or frustrated.

We had two bright-eyed new volunteers assume a district level position, and within 12 months resigned. They were overworked.

We have had pros overrule volunteers on events, i.e. multibooking a location, not ordering enough supplies, or  not even ordering supplies at all.

We have had volunteers try to do camp improvements for events, and told "NO." Then the site is not ready.

We had volunteers removed from their position when they question the pros, i.e  Why did council take $40K earmarked for the OA to do camp improvements for Conclave and put it in the general fund as a FOS donation.

And we had volunteers yelled and screamed at by pros.

And when folks do ask for help from council, they are told no.

I hear you. My suggestion can be a step, just one perhaps, towards filling that divide. 

We often lament the lack of District and/or Council personnel (including commissioners) involvement at the Unit level. 

We have an opportunity for changing this AND increasing both hands-on/in-person training.

Send the district/council personnel to unit meetings/events to conduct trainings on a regular basis. 

This will accomplish more than just those two opportunities, it will also:

-increase visibility from district/council.

-demonstrate to scouts that adults are also "advancing".

-separate the adults from scouts during the scouting event.

-allow district/council to observe the unit in action.

and more.

Strange to me too. Everything in the backpack for all trips all year.

InquisitiveScouter is absolutely right about training, and how the role of ASMs being up to you. 

 I hesitate to recommend assigning an ASM to each patrol b/c this can very quickly devolve into the ASM becoming the acting PL. This structure works, but it is difficult right off the bat.

Instead I would recommend focusing on the strengths and attributes each ASM brings to the table. Have each ASM be "in charge of" one of the SM main duties. You as SM can oversee and steer the ASM to fulfill your vision. 

This models the Patrol Method with each patrol member having a specific role. It also increases the adult association for scouts as they interact with multiple adults not just the one assigned to their patrol. A breakdown could be:

SM-Leadership & Mentoring of ASMs

ASM-Camping/activity expert: the go to person for PL/APLs to get ideas about locations, recommendations, etc...

ASM-Advancement/skills expert: the go to for the PL to plan patrol trainings & sign-offs

ASM-Food/cooking expert: go to for all food & cooking related help.

ASM-GearHead expert: go to for tools, equipment help.

ASM-Scout Spirit expert: go to for all other "fun" activity ideas (intra/inter-patrol  games, skits, songs, cheers, etc...)

For clarity, I am not knocking Inquisitive's structure. Their's works, and I would bet it took a while to get there. I only hesitate to recommend it to your situation especially b/c it seems like the ASMs are not wholly prepared yet.

When the methods are employed effectively, they result in the achievement of the Aims of scouting. These are the metrics by which we measure our success in implementing the methods. 

As far as changing "troop culture", unless it is the SM with agreeable ASM, it is near impossible. 

It is much easier to change Patrol Culture as the Patrol makes their decisions. This is best accomplished by having the Patrol choose events separate from the other patrols.

IMO the workbook is awful in so many ways. Filling it out almost becomes the project itself. Adding another layer to it makes it even worse.

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

In my youth, most camporees had a theme and scouts could earn 1 MB by participating. You're telling me some districts try to cram multiple MBs into a single weekend campout?

There are some who do not even do these on a campout. They are done in indoor classrooms with 30 scouts and a mB "counselor" doing a 2-3 hour presentation including a few hands-on activities. These mB universities cheapen the mB and deny scouts real opportunities. It is both saddening and maddening.

My district merit badge "college" director called me to see if I would do Camping merit badge as I was a registered mB counselor, she wanted to know if I needed a full day for it, or whether a half-day session was enough. 😲 

I have said this before but it bears repeating, one of the most important parts of the mB process is the built Adult Association method. Far too often this is lost on the adults. Imagine if the adults in charge of coordinating the mBs at camp, or in a troop had this method at the forefront equal to the advancement method. 🤩 Now imagine the lost opportunities for scouts when this is not done. 😢

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

One of the primary reasons the organization is failing, IMO.

Yep. National should be funding the Councils. The "franchise model" does not work except for National.

The only other consideration would be wind. If it was going to be windy, like 20mph wind, that would make 17degrees feel like 0. 

Also if the camping area is exposed, strong winds could make visibility poor with blowing snow.

So besides temperature, there may have been other weather conditions to consider. 

Btw, I am in NY so 17 degrees is a warm winter day. I recently returned from a trip where the temp was minus 12.

I remember earning the world crest patch by going to an international event in Canada too and IIRC there were a few other requirements?. Our troop participated in the event for years. It was great. Does that mean I earned the current rendition of the award? LOL