BrentAllen

We tried zip ties on the first boot to separate at the heel, and it didn't last one portage - it snapped. The para cord did the job for us. We fused the ends of the para cord together once tied, and they never came loose. If you flip through the photo album I linked, you can see the blue tennis shoes our interpreter was wearing on photo 265 (behind the Hudson Bay bread). No socks, either. How she kept her ankles from getting black and blue, I'll never figure out. She did pick up one leech, at the end of that 110 portage from Hansen to Cherry. The entry was pure moose muck. The zippers on her pants legs also broke, so she was in shorts for most of the trip. She didn't seem to mind. Equipment report: Tru-Spec Jungle Boots - mixed report, 4 boots failed at the heel. Fox River over-the-calf socks - worked great, still going strong. Switchback pants, BSA - worked great, dried fairly quickly, all held up. BSA L/S Action shirt - also worked great, becoming a favorite for me. Wickers poly u/w - great, very comfortable. Marmot rain jacket - worked like a champ. Frogg Toggs rain pants - worked well the few times I wore them - my "dry clothes" pants. Princeton Tec Impulse flashlight - great, waterproof, you don't need anything bigger than this. XY Paddle - love it! Be warned, you can't carry these on the airlines, they must be checked. Items I would suggest each crew member carry: Butane lighter para cord, 20 - 50' a bandana or two

Wow. I guess I expect more from people on this site. mmhardy, did you actually hear Rush or go to his site to read it, or are you just repeating leftist talking points? I hope that latter, since you are far off the mark. Rush actually said the Obama Health Care logo is similar to the Nazi logo. This was sort of in response to Pelosi claiming that the citizens showing up against universal health care are carrying swastikas. I guess that lie by Pelosi didn't bother you, but a smear story about Rush got you riled up? Offended? Yes, but not by Rush. Just by your lack of candor.

Photos are posted at http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLanding.action?c=6dyfsmz.4ta45dxz&x=0&y=-ky0kdg&localeid=en_US This is the first time I have used the kodak gallery. You may have to create a log in to view them - should be free. Let me know if this works or not. I will be adding some notes to the photos as I have time. The photos start out with our overnighter at the International Wolf Center - highly recommended! Buffalo, We were dreading portages when we started. After the first few, we got the system down and it was no big deal. We got to where we didn't even ask how far they were - you just did them. When we made the 240 rod portage on day 6, I thought we were about half way through it when we came to the end. I timed it and it took us around 18 minutes - not too bad. The kevlar canoes are much easier to handle than the aluminum. At about 100 rods, the pads start hurting your shoulders, but not unbearable. With the heavier aluminum, the pads start hurting around 60 rods. We went down the Suwanee when I was a Scout. I hope we can do that again, maybe in February. I always thought that was one of the coolest trips we made. Camping on a sandbar has its own unique challenges. I hope you have a great trip!

Maybe what you don't understand is everyone of those do-dads usually has a special meaning. It is usually staff members who have then all clanking around their hiking sticks. In the staffs I have served on, we would have an opening and closing message presented by one of the staff at each training session or campfire, and they traditionally would hand out a totem that represented that message. I personally keep mine on a separate caribeener for each different course, but I have no problem with anyone carrying them on their staves. I also have the stuffed animals (gifts) and other things you despise. I happen to see it all as Scout Spirit. Maybe we shoud also ask the boys to get rid of their patrol emblems and patrol flags with any awards hanging from them. We don't want them to offend anyone not in their group, right? Finally, there is this thing called "fun" - you should try it some time.

Sounds like someone has WB staff (stave) envy.

Gern, We had mixed results on the boots. We had 7 pairs of them (my son had Altama's). Of the 14 boots, we had 4 heels separate from the upper. The front parts, which usually come apart, all held together, it was the heels that pulled apart. This was a pretty easy field repair - cut holes on the sides, run a piece of para cord through the boot, underneath the inner sole, around the bottom through the treads, and tie on the side. The 4 boots that came apart were all repaired this way, and made it through the trip. My personal pair held up fine, with no problems. We are taking some of the boots that came apart back to the store to show them the results. It appears they have fixed one problem (front parts) but have come up with another. Next time, I'll probably go with the NRS Workboot Wetshoe. I think the treads look a little more suitable on those.

We actually got back late Sunday night, am I finally found time to write about it. What a fantastic experience! We went out of Charles L. Sommers Canoe Base, with 5 boys (all 13 years old), 3 adults (42, 46, 50) and a 21 year old Interpreter Jessica. When they say High Adventure, they mean it! I had hoped we would be able to travel around 55 - 60 miles, maybe go for the 75 mile award. We ended up making 106 miles over 9 days, earning the 100 Mile Award. We also earned the Duty To God Award and the Northwest Voyageurs Brigade Award. Our route was a combination of the Scenic Lakes Loop on the way out, and the lower part of the Little Saganaga Loop on the way back in (through the Kawishiwi River). We made a total of 58 portages, with two days that included 10 portages each and two days that included 9 portages each. Total portage length for the trip was 2,425 rods (rod = 16 1/2 feet), which equals just over 7 1/2 miles. Longest portage was 240 rods, about 3/4 miles. Toughest portage was from Hansen Lake to Cherry Lake, 110 rods long and up over and down a 120 foot ridge. Envision carrying either a 100 lb. pack or 44 lb. canoe up and down 12 floors along a very rocky trail. It was brutal. Toughest day was also the shortest - only 6 miles. We camped the last night on Ensign Lake just 6 miles from base camp, which was to our west. That night a big system moved in, with winds howling. I woke up at 4:00 AM to hear the dining fly whipping in the wind - it had blown out. We woke up to 20 - 25 knot winds, with some gusts probably hitting 30. We kept waiting for the wind and waves to die, but they never would. We finally decided to just go at 1:30 PM. It took 3 1/2 hours to paddle that 6 miles, paddling as hard as we could. We were taking water over the bow and occassionally over the side. It was a white-knuckle ride nearly the whole way in. We later heard that a crew that came in before us rolled one of their canoes, and it took 70 minutes to get back under way. We really learned how to handle the canoes in some tough weather. After much consideration, all the adults agreed this is a 15-year old trip. The boys did it, but it was on a razor thin margin. We dropped one canoe (kevlar) and punched a hole in it on day 3, but repaired it with a Thermarest Hotbond repair kit, plastic bag, duct tape and birch bark - it never leaked. The repair charge when we got back to camp was only $30. The portage trails can be very tough, with either deep moose muck or ankle-busting rocks everywhere. Many of the portage entrances and exits were very tough - big, slick rocks next to deep water. Very hard to load up packs and get those canoes overhead. We heard some crews go up and will do a 25 mile route with few portages. A young crew could certainly handle that. Most of the boys say they will definitely return. I feel the same. We had a little bit of everything on the trip - beautiful sunny calm weather, cold rainy weather, high winds, gorgeous sunsets, a complete fog-in one morning. An absolute swarm of mosquitoes when we decided to hit the water at 5:30 AM for a dawn paddle. Big lakes, small ponds covered with lilly pads, everything in between. Waterfalls, big and small. We saw a lot of the blow-down area - hard to imagine being caught in that 10 years ago. Overall, just a very special place - no motors of any kind to be heard for days. As close to true wilderness as you can find in this day and age. Our Charlie guide was fantastic. She would throw her 40 lb. pack on, take the canoe and run us into the ground (while wearing some funky tennis-type shoes). Then she would cook up incredible deserts from scratch, including an unbelievable cake with fresh rasberries. Back at rendevous, she played guitar and mesmerized us with a couple of songs (Wagon Wheel and No Rain). I know some people haven't been happy with their Interpreters - we would absolutely request ours again. I can't wait to get back.

Given the choice between a $5 fee increase and a new permanent National Scouting Center for Jamborees AND a new National High Adventure Base - OR - keeping dues where they are and having neither the new Jambo/Scouting Center nor the new National High Adventure Base... Let me think.... I think I'll take the $5 increase. Scouting is still the best, most reasonably priced program out their for kids. Twocubdad - don't forget to ask about council camperships for needy families.

Too small for the long run, IMHO. Not too small if you are just getting started and plan on growing. We started with 6 just under two years ago, all in one Patrol. Added 6 more the following March, for a second Patrol. Added 14 this March, now 3 full Patrols of 8, along with an SPL. The biggest difference between one Patrol and two or more is you can hold Patrol competitions with two or more. Patrol Spirit and identity is much easier to build when the boys have another Patrol to compete against. Knot relays, fire building relays - you are only limited by your creativity. It will also be much easier to grow once you get a little bigger. I know we had questions about whether or not we would survive when we were only 6. Once we doubled to 12, those questions disappeared. We were still getting questions about "older boys" this past March, but those should start to disappear as well, now that our boys getting a little age and size on them. Good luck!

hurtonk, There are some weeks at Woodruff (north Georgia in the foohills) that we have more Troops from Florida than we do from Georgia. We also get Troops from Louisiana, Mississippi, TN, NC. This is a big camp, with 800 - 1,200 boys per week. The staff is great, facilities are great. We bring and cook our own food, so I can't give you a first-hand opinion on the Dining Hall. Archery, rifle and shotgun ranges. Whitewater rafting on the Nantahala and Ocoee (big hits with the boys). Beautiful private lake. Very cool climbing tower. Horseback riding. Lots of program, lots of activities. Big amphitheater on the lake with fun campfires. I kind of chuckled at another thread about the SM packing list, and bringing things to do in your down time. Between inspecting another site, hiking out to Davis Inn to throw tomahawks, going swimming, whitewater rafting on two rivers, taking tons of pictures, grabbing a root beer float at the Trading Post (only 1 per day) or a Kick in the Face slushie (only 1 per day), I didn't seem to have much down time. :-) That doesn't include any of the many training classes for adults that are also offered, or the High Adventure or Whitewater Adventure programs that are offered for the older boys. This is a big camp, with some sites located a good distance from the Parade Ground & Dining Hall. If you are looking for a small camp experience, this isn't for you. If you are looking for a lot of activities and choices, Woodruff will give them to you.

My son earned his Mile Swim this year as well. I didn't think he would be able to pull it off, since he hadn't done any training, and hadn't been to the pool this year. The only swimming he did before camp was his BSA swim test. I never did the MS when I was a Scout, so I'm very proud of him for toughing it out. 50 minutes. The Mile Swim at Woodruff is a program, not just swimming the mile. They have practices that get longer each day, on Monday thru Thursday. The actual Mile Swim takes place Friday afternoon. In order to swim on Friday, you have to make three practices (one a day) during the week. I think the practice on Monday is around 1/5 mile. Thursday may be around 1/2 mile.

Beavah's advice follows our experience - the adults will most likely need to get the train going, and use it as a teaching opportunity. Also, we don't treat HA as a direct PLC issue. We handle it as a Crew, and usually hold meetings outside of Troop meetings. We did have the Crew elect a youth leader when we first started putting the trip together, and have let him schedule meetings, etc. It has been a learning experience for all involved.

Comparing BSA Patrol Leader to BSA Lifeguard is apples to oranges. Comparing Leadership to Lifesaving is apples to oranges. That is, unless you have distilled the teaching of leadership down to a single page of requirements, as is BSA Lifeguard. If you have, please email it over; I could use it.

Beavah, There is a huge difference between being the good guy (hero) and being a goody two-shoes. I don't know if being a Boy Scout will ever be equal to Mel Gibson in Patriot or Master Chief, and that is not because of the uniform. The self-appointed deciders of coolness won't ever consider a group with an Oath and Law like ours as "cool." Much of coolness is about materialism which is generally in conflict with a Scout is thrifty. How is JROTC perceived in your local schools? Is it cool, or does it get the same rating as Boy Scouts? Last time I checked, they were wearing the same uniforms as the real soldiers, sailors, etc. That didn't seem to help at all with their coolness factor. It ain't the uniforms.

Buffalo, A couple of ideas (we are sort of in the same boat). 1. I compare the overall idea of the Troop to that of a football team (something the boys can relate to). Troop meetings are practice, monthly campouts are games, summer camp is the Super Bowl, and High Adventure is the Pro Bowl. The Pro Bowl is for the best of the best, and you can't get there without the practices, the games and the Super Bowl. 2. Pick up a copy or two of the Passport To High Adventure booklet at your Scout Shop, and give it to the SPL and PLs. Let them look it over - it covers the National HA bases as well as Council HA programs. It gives instruction on how to plan a HA trip, and lists age requirements, etc. A great resource. 3. I have a sort of unofficial goal of giving every boy in the Troop the opportunity to earn the HA Triple Crown. What that means in reality is we are going to promote HA by talking about the different programs available and make sure the boys know about them. If we need to bring Scouts in from other Troops who have been on those trips to discuss them, we will. If we need to raise money for camperships for boys who can't afford the trips, we will. I mention this during the parent part of Webelos visits and in new parent orientation. The boys don't have to go if they don't want to, but the goal is to give the boys the opportunity. 4. There is a National High Adventure Program DVD available, for $10 I think, that is decent. It shows Philmont, NT and Sea Base. I'm not sure when it was put together, but the music is not very appealing to today's youth. Still, it's not a bad resource if the boys have no exposure to the National programs. I think you can get copies from the NT Trading Post. The NT trip we are taking this summer is our first HA trip. We started talking about it as soon as we formed the Troop, when the boys were 11. That is another point to make with the boys - you are usually planning these trips at least a year in advance. Help the SPL figure out the deadlines for entering the lottery for Philmont and other programs, and get them on your calendar. Without a slot, you can't go. I think HA is a big part of the ingredients for the long-term glue that keeps older boys in Scouting (to earn Triple Crown, they will most likely be in Scouting through age 16 at least). HA also plays a big part in the maturing of the boys. Nearly everyone I have talked to about NT said the same thing - you will take up a group of boys and bring back a group of young men. HA gives purpose to many of the yearly campouts and programs - the Scouts learn they need those camping skills and experiences if they want to have a fun, successful HA trip. Final suggestion - one of the members of the WB patrol I was TG for wrote up his ticket around promoting HA in his Troop. The final product was resource binder that turned out to be the Passport to High Adventure on steroids. This thing is a work of art - a real page turner! When it comes out, the boys are glued to it. Other parts of his ticket included putting together a crew and having them plan a HA trek, having them plan and conduct all the shakedowns and then go on the trip. Point being - you may want to find an adult (may be you) to be the point man for your Troop on HA. He studies the programs and works with the boys to make it happen. Good luck!

"I expect a shirt and scarf and that is about it. I am just happy that he is coming and learning a valuable message." If there is anything I have learned about boys in my 6 years as a Scouter, it is that they will raise or lower themselves to the bar put before them. As a group, they will meet the expectations given to them. Uniforming is not about what the boys want to wear; it is about the expectations of the Troop, which should come from the Scoutmaster's vision of the Troop.

We plan on using Sawyer Permethrin Clothing treatment on our clothes for our NT trip. An REI employee said the Sawyer rep told them that ironing the clothes after treatment greatly improves the treatment's effectiveness. Anyone ever hear about this? If nothing else, we make look a little less wrinkled when we hit the water.

"The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout Prepared. If the Troop Leaders put their own time into the activities of this Troop we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness." Green Bar Bill in the 3rd Edition, SM Handbook Bill Hillcourt included this in his recommendation to SM's starting a new Troop. I have included the above in our Visitor packet, and part of our New Member packet under Expectations of Members. If your Troop has similar expectations, the Scout in question, along with his parents and the CC, shouldn't be surprised when he is removed from the recharter. You can read about some horror stories here of 17 year old Scouts wanting to earn their Eagle and running into all kinds of problems. I think a letter clearly documenting his lack of attendance, and clearly outlining the expectations if he wants to make Eagle, could head off some serious problems down the road. Based on what we have seen here in the forum, the issue will only get worse as the 18th birthday gets closer.

Wow, Kudu. Tough week at camp?

Lisa writes "Here we purport to give more freedom to the boys to make their own decisions, within an ethical framework." Since the BSA gives pretty clear rules about uniforming, I don't see this as an area to give the boys freedom to make decisions about "how much" of the uniform to wear (outside of Activity uniforms, or hats and neckers). I see it as you are either following BSA rules and regs, or you aren't. Why do we see some BSA rules and regs as black and white (ie: advancement, leadership - PORs) but not when it comes to the uniform? The only ethical decision is do I wear the uniform correctly, or not. As has been mentioned many times before, Troops do not have the authority to change the Official uniform, other than deciding whether or not to wear hats or neckers. To answer the original question, I don't think the uniform alone drives kids away. This is pretty general, but from my experiences, boys either want to be Scouts, or they don't.

Update on the Scouts from Dunwoody at Daniel Boone a few weeks ago. All boys have fully recovered. They said it was not a pleasant experience - the SM's son had the highest fever, around 102. They will now have tales to tell - the summer I got Swine Flu at camp.

eisley, Are you saying the district just doesn't keep a list of the MB Counselors from your Troop, or is the district not involved in approving the counselors from your Troop?

The process is outlined in the SM Handbook, pg. 127. "When a Scout has decided on a badge he would like to earn, he follows these steps: 1. The Scout obtains from his Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application and the name of a qualified counselor for that merit badge." That is the process we follow.

shortridge, Yes, all Counselors must be 18. As the ACP&P states, "Camp staff members who are qualified in the subject and are younger than 18 may assist the merit badge counselor with instruction. The merit badge counselor or instructor in a particular subject should be available to both individuals and groups." I believe they are referred to as instructors rather than assistants, but probably also go by counselor. As I said earlier, the term "counselor" gets tossed around pretty loosely - hence the CIT. "Counselor" could be a camp staff term totally unrelated to the BSA MB definition. I have no doubt that every MB counselor at Woodruff is at least 18. Our Troop Guide (camp staff, MB Counselor) was a college student, and he taught Cit. in Nation as well as Camping and Wilderness Survival, depending on where he was needed each week. The Basketry Counselor had recently turned 18 - he was from a unit in our District. There were some under-18 staff on water front, but also many who are college students. Now that I think back on it, the only other place I can remember seeing staff under 18 was in the Mountain Man program, which is the first-year camper T-FC program (they had a lot of staff in this area). No MBs there, no requirement to be 18+ to sign off on advancement requirements.

The boys usually sing it about the late Patrol. They have been known to sing it about particular boys, but my preference is Patrols. Embarrassment? Maybe a little. Ridicule? No more so than reminding a Scout about Totin'Chip rules if he is violating them around camp.