gumbymaster

Wow. I cannot begin to think about how this was for your family. Clearly the Troop needs to review the meaning and spirit of the Scout Law. People not coming to my ECOR was always by biggest (but unwarrented) fear at that age, but I have not heard of it happening before (birthdays yes, but scouting - I thought even the lesser of us would be better than that). For the benefit of others who may come later and be in a similar situation, I would recommend they speak with the district executive or unit commissioner. They would be able to muster a cadre of Scouts and Scouters to rejoice in what must have not only been a personal challenge greater for your son than most eagles face, but the additional challenge of accomplishing that in the environment of your son's troop. My heartfelt congratulations for your Son's achievement and for the wonderful family support you provide him.

First, Let me congratulate you on a FANTASTIC recruiting effort. We can (and are) all armchair quarterback on this one. Clearly your upcoming meetings will determine what you want to do. The largest potential impediment you have is the COR. If he's not going to side with you, and it doesn't sound like he would, your options are very narrow. 1. Unless the violations are so egregious that the council would revoke the charter, the council and DE really have their hands tied. 2. You could trying going above your COR to the IH. It would depend on the IHs familiarity with Scouting, but generally i'd expect them to support the current COR. 3. As others have said, you could just make sure those two Second Year (and/or AOL) parents are ok with going as is - it would be a challenge to get an AOL Den Leader for just two boys, and then just let it go. 4. You can make a big stink about it and create a challenging environment for your new recruits. Probably be removed by the COR and have no future influence. 5. You could leave / transfer /or try to split the pack to resolve the issue. In the end, I think that you do this for the boys. If that's the case, as long as those two families are on-board with the plan; you've done your best to get the correct solution in place. We can't win them all. Just do the best you can for the rest. We do it for the boys, and as long as they can be kept out of the collateral damage, they won't know and they will have a great time - no matter what the mechanics of the program are.

I'm with Stosh on this one. The full, proper, uniform is always appropriate for any scouting activity. They are actually very durable, my current, well loved, CM and RTC uniforms are both more than 24 years old. Ok I got new pants, but that was for different reasons

At my MBC training course, they made a particilar point that the SM signature is NOT required for a Scout to start a Merit Badge. This appears to be supported by the GTA section 7 The theory being that the SM really didn't have the authority to prevent a scout from working on a Merit Badge or otherwise creating impediments to the Scout's advancement. However, in typical BSA fashion, this also appears to be contradicted by Which would imply that the real purpose of the SM signature is to make sure the scout is working with an approved counselor.

His problem was he tried to turn the ship and reverse it at the same time.

I've been an EMT/NREMT; I've been an Advance First Aid (when they had that course), CPR, First Aid, BLS, and a bunch of other ARC courses instructor - I am not currently certified as an instructor. Before any of that, I was a Boy Scout with First Aid MB and Emergency Prep MB. The worst "wilderness" case I had to deal with was as summer camp staff (~18), we were leading a group of ~ 30 first year campers to an overnight camping site off the camp property (only about 1-1.5 miles, very hilly terrain), and my co-leader took a brown recluse bite to the calf. I had to send my CIT and two scouts back to the camp for help, and control the situation for the ~ 30 mins to an hour before other staff arrived with the stretcher to bring him back to camp, coenciding with the approximate time an ambulance could get to the camp. In the end, everything was fine, but I look back at that and my subsequent training; for the wilderness, the Advanced First Aid course was actually more appropriate than the EMT, but was not much different than the Scouting background. While I recognize many of our scout training programs are over powerpointed, they don't have to be, and even when they are, we still usually do a pretty good job of a practical (field) component (BALOO, IOLS, others I do not have personal experience with). I still think the BSA could run their own program to cover the content in the earlier pdf link.

Sorry, I should clarify. I meant that in the communitty at large, if they think of someone performing first aid (not professional EMS) they probably think of Red Cross and their CPR training first, and a boy scout second. Even AHA, since their training is typically more to professional workplace needs, might not be as well recognized. Actually in our area, they have some deal with the ARC, and we have quite a lot of BSA sponsored ARC certified training.

Stosh, While I really like the system, I'm not sure I would agree that the mentoring/coaching/guiding level was none. As adults, you identified a task that you wanted the scouts to complete, and you provided specific motivation to see that that was accomplished. Now, if the PLC has asked if the adults would provide that as a reward to the first patrol .. that would be too awesome to contemplate.

Developed, yes, and we could seek out help and specialties for developing the course, although the earlier pdf link implies BSA has already identified what the course should be. I was referring more to actually running the courses and the trainer courses. Also, despite being an outdoor organization with lip service to leave no trace, the Scouts, as a program, did not always have a good reputation on the subject matter. First Aid on the other hand, we're probably second most known to the Red Cross.

Realistically, is there any real reason that the BSA could not create our own self-certified course in WFA, in much the same way we have outdoor ethics trainers, or many other self certified courses. In terms of Wilderness First Aid, I would have to believe that we (as an organziation) have at least as much credibility as ARC and probably more than many of these for-profit companies that teach the course. OK, maybe we still farm out the CPR component, like we do for BSA Lifeguard, but otherwise - This is something BSA could offer for adult leaders, venturers, and older scouts alike; without an outrageous fee structure, and more tailored to not just what to do, but how to pre-plan for the event.

Well, as long as we're sending this topic off in 4 different directions at once ... Re: I&P on the forum (at least I am indicating which tangent I'm on) I think, at some level, almost everyone here is here with the intent of learning how or helping others to offer a good program for the Scouts. Maybe I've been fortunate, but I've not yet encountered anyone specifically looking ONLY to troll the users. I&P lets us have a place to vent our issues, maybe it's not always as scout-like as it should be over there, but by having it, it at least contains the damage. It's the warning sign to the new members (of the forum or scouting) to say "there be dragons here". Then the more program focused topics can stay that. What I personally try to remember is to differentiate the persona of a person in I&P from the rest of the forum. Some of the people I have most disagreed with in I&P are still some of the most helpful people on topic specific issues. I try to compartmentalize and not allow a bleed over. I also try, regardless of the level of disagreement, to not get personal in the attacks. I think everyone here is a good person, at least those I have interacted with so far. I may try to challenge an idea put forth; I hope I am not challenging the idea's proponent - at least not directly and by design. As with most of us, whether it's the program offered, the uniform worn, the advice given, ... I try to do my best, and recognize that I do not always succeed to the standards of others. I work to improve.

I believe in uniform by example, and I wear an appropriate uniform when leading the pack, often remaining in the field uniform even when the scouts are invited to wear the activity uniform. I am also a realist, and Scout pants are expensive, and the cubs grow out of them much faster than they do with the uniform shirt. Thus our pack makes the scout pants optional if blue pants or shorts (jeans, trousers, etc.) are at least worn. As a result, we have maybe 10% that have the official pants. Yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's not that expensive compared to other activities, but for some of my families, it really can make a difference and be a barrier to joining. The Program says that we will not deny a scout the experience over a lack of uniform (or lack of a complete uniform). In fact, in Scouting literature in Boys-life and other sources in trying to encourage the boys to "pay their own way" (I can't realistically think of a cub capable of this, but ok), is to acquire the complete uniform over time, adding each part as they can afford to. While extending that to discouraging the uniform pants might be too far, our unit has decided that that is enough of an invitation to leave our uniforming policy as it is.

Well, here now, I thought my son's troop was making pretty good efforts at Boy Led, and now it's been shown to me there is a BIG hole in the system. Knowing what is going on is definately a SM/Committee email to the parents list. The boys may also share some communication that I don't see (PLC?), but my son has not yet been a part of that. This one is a hard balancing act. Emails, etc. are a great communication tool, but not all parents are ready to let their kids have such an account, depending on their age. Most social medial platforms require the users to be 13 and up, so that too can create an issue. BSA guidelines should not be a problem as long as the communications are in the open or there are at least two adults in the chain in addition to youth. There don't seem to be specific youth to youth rules beyond cyberchip and scout law of cyberspace. As a part of my committee work with the Troop, I'm mentoring another parent to manage the troop website. The troop has selected a youth webmaster, and when he comes up into the job, I expect to mentor him as well (mostly on the actual tools, not the content). Our approach (still in the works) will be that the website has a couple of primary purposes. (1) Communications to the Scouts - event planning, packing lists, meeting schedules, etc. Ideally even patrol corners. This task I hope will be taken up by the webmaster. (2) Information and promotional materials for recruiting - For the forseeable future, I expect the troop committee to manage this part of the site; and (3) Communications for the parents of members (after this topic, I would now need to reconsider if this should be part of #1). This would be access to forms, parent support to the troop, etc. When I was a youth, this issue of communications was largely resolved by a troop newsletter, produced monthly, by the youth (the primary job of the Scribe), with both troop and patrol related information. But print seems to have given way to electronics; yet electronics don't seem to be as effective, it's more piecemeal, and not in one place.

While the training helps, that's not all of it. I grew up in a boy led troop; I'm an AOL & Eagle; I have 8 years of white stag leadership development training, including 5 on staff; I've been to National Camp School; Summer Camp Staff 9 years, Program Director for 3; 2 Pow Wows, 3 UoS and teaching this year, 4 years as a CM; MBC for 20 MBs; done IOLS, and just about all the on-line trainings there are; I'm on the Roundtable staff. Knowing the right answer (with or without training) is not always enough, and this is why the CO and the Committee have to be very thoughtful in the selection of unit leadership. On paper, I don't think a unit could easily get a better leader - but MY personallity, right now, is not ready for a role of more than parent/committee for the Troop; I am still too egar to want to help (even if that's limited to a directed evaluation of an activity); and as previosuly noted in this forum topic, I am in a position better than many to understand the problems in adult intervention. I recognize this limitation in myself. I know that for at least a couple of years, my involvement with my son's troop needs to be non-uniformed, behind the scenes - and even then I have to constantly check myself. MBC and Cubscouts is the right fit for that. I'm working on my cub leader transition plan, working with the committee to find my successor, and then mentor them (as needed or requested). When I get to the end of that path, I'll reevaluate where my son is in his scouting career, and where I best fit (with the troop, more district involved, UC), it will be interesting for me to learn where that is.

While I do understand your point on two-deep vs. no one-on-one, I've had several conversations on this point before, I'm not sure I'll take quite the hands off approach give here when it is an offical meeting, in a person's home. Thus it is the event; as say opposed to those that think you need two adults in each car traveling to the event. In this case, it was a "door" conversation as people were getting ready to leave; and yes, I fully acknowledge, that (1) The conversationshould not have been there or then; (2) I need to learn how to better and more politely extricate myself from the conversation as the scope expanded. (Something I should also probably learn for this forum, or at least I&P, as well).

In this way, "uniform" itself is a misnomer. While the uniform is ONE of our methods for delivering the Scouting program, it is only a part of an overall stragety to achieve our aims and goals. The purpose of the uniform, among other things is to give each scout a sense of belonging to a larger group, to shed socio-economic barriers so that the scouts may befriend all, and for recognition within our community of this is who we are and what we stand for. If you go back far enough, the parts of the Scout uniform had a scouting purpose beyond simple appearance, whether the triangular bandage neckerchief, or the heavy duty fabric shirts and trouser, the campaign hat, the stave... By Policy, we do not deny the scouting experience to a boy for the lack of a uniform, or the lack of a complete uniform. By Policy, ANY scout uniform is ALWAYS a scout uniform. In practice, a mix of modern, recent, historic, and well loved uniforms can, to some degree, render the goals of a uniform appearance moot. Heck, in my Council, there must be AT LEAST 20 currently active and available Council Patches - great for council income and traders, but hardly giving a uniform appearance at a gathering. In short, there are lots of "uniform legal" ways to stand out from the others, if that was realy one's goal.

Last night I was an adult chaperone to a Patrol Meeting. The Patrol leader, while 15, is new to the position, and to troop leadership in general; and is currently second class. They were working on Knot tieing; when I brought my son, I inquired with the Patrol Leader's father (it was at their house); if he had the two-deep leadership covered, the did technically as his wife was home, but they asked if I know much about knots to help. I indicated that I would stay, but that I only planned to help if the Patrol Leader wanted to teach a knot he didn't know. There were many times that I wanted to help. Where I could have helped a struggling scout know where they were making their mistake. I sat on my hands; it was hard. After the meeting, at the pickup, one of the other parents asked me how it went. I mentioned that they did very well, but I found it difficult to sit on my hands all night - more as a casual observation about myself, not about them. The parent then seemed to have some very strong ideas about how, yes, boys scouts are boy led, but if they don't know how (the skill, to teach, to lead), the adult really did need to step in. If they didn't have the background, they had to learn from somewhere. My response was, not realy. Part of what scouts are good at are being a safe place to fail, to learn, and improve. I don't think the parent saw it that way. I'm on the Committee but decidedly not a Scoutmaster (their Scoutmaster is very laid back - probably why only 3 or 4 active boys are 1st class or higher), their former Scoutmaster and current ASM is a little more proactive but still the boys generally need to come to him if they need something from him. Their soon to be Scoutmaster is also pretty laid back, and has just finished Woodbadge at my suggestion (no prior Scouting expereince). So with this parent, I indicated that drawing that line of where to step in is really something that the SM and ASMs should be deciding; the troop had just sent 3 boys to NYLT and we needed to give them time to actually apply what they had learned. The parent was still not convinced, but I think I got the discussion deferred until a committee meeting. As I was leaving, the PLs parents asked me how I thought things went. I said, that the PL was able to keep the boy's attention and generally keep them on task (and knowing 3 of the boys from their Webelos den, no simple task); but that in the end, as the PL was there at the question, that the PL was just as able if not better qualified to know how things went, what worked, and where it could be improved for the next time. I'm not sure, but I think both the PL and the parents smiled at that one. Even so, in retrospect for the meeting as a whole, I think I was still too much there. There's a reason I'm still a cubmaster. While I understand boy led, lived boy led, I'm not yet ready for the transition.

Remembering Scoutmasters: I remember who my scoutmasters were. Well, not my very first one, he changed maybe 3 months after I joined. The second one I remember because (1) He had a very dynamic personality, (2) He was tremendously good at recruiting, and (3) there were incidents (thankfully not involving me) that we all were briefed about after his sudden departure. I don't remember who replaced him - but I remember my SPL and PL. When I became SPL, I remember who the Scoutmaster and Assistants were from then on. So I think that I can agree that if you can't remember your Scoutmaster, and had a good scouting experience, it was probably very boy led.

Yes, I think you could. Make your own Neckerchief slide that has a place for these mementos. That said, at some point, when the slide becomes a distraction from the uniform itself, again we need to reevaluate the spirit of the guidelines. I do like the earlier comment about coming to the ECOH w/o the prior mentor pins, it lets the recipient know that they are special, not just/mearly one more story.

I really like the analogy, can I steal (I mean adopt) it for my JSN's?

A lot of the Den leaders in my pack will focus one getting one time through the required activities (requirements, adventures, pins, etc.), and making sure the parents of Scouts who miss the material know what to work on from home. Once the required elements have been gone through, they will, to the best of their ability, go back and work on filling in the missed activities with the boys who need it; this is also an ideal time to put skilled parents to work, and a den chief - if you have a good one; as there are many boys, and what they haven't done is all over the map. As a pack, I also try to design our group activities to cover wide ranges of rank requirments, thus providing one more opportunity to (1) work on the skill, or (2) reinforce what was learned; without explicitly repeating the way it was done the first time.

I try to be pretty good about uniforming. I want to set a good example - and I really try to let my example be the limit of how I uniform police. But I also like to account for the spirit of the uniform guidelines. As to the parent's pin. At a court of honor or equivalent, parents are encouraged to celebrate their childrens' accomplishments by wearing the parents pin(s)/ribbon. My pride in my Child's achievement does not go away simply because I am a uniformed leader; my Child does not deserve to see less of parent's honoring his accomplishment, simply because I am also a uniformed leader. I have no problem with wearing the parent's pin at that type of event; even with my uniform.

I had forgotten to account for the LDS structure, thank you. I guess you could actually earn all the necessary activity badges for both awards during the Webelos year. So other than the six month requirement (and maybe reearnng/recertifing cyber chip - I don't have the requirements in front of me at the moment), I guess you could do it quicker if you wanted.

I'd say that I might have a different position because I was a cub master, but this is a cub forum, so ... I do not even begin to try to compete with Sports. When I recruit, do a Join Scouting night, or even talk it up at the Grocery Store; I emphacise that (Cub) Scouting is here to support the family. Not to become an extra headache. If Sports, seasonal or otherwise, is important to the family, and they have to miss events - that's OK; we are here to support the family. Our den leaders will be happy to let you know what they are working on, so that the Boy can work on these things at home, or, they boy can just participate as they can - with the understanding that they may not complete the rank badge; we just ask them to let the Den leader know for planning purposes. Once they understand that they (the Scout) do not have to complete a rank award to move up the the next level - it's all by Grade/Age, I don't usually get any pushback. The key is to manage the parent's and Scouts expectations. (And to do a good job recruiting at all levels and ages so that Scout isn't the only one in the Bear den without the Wolf badge). If they really want the rank AND sports, they have to be willing to put in the extra effort. Now Boy Scouts, on the other hand may be a different issue; not because of the problems with self-paced advancement, but based on a boy who accepts a leadership role, has to be able to perform that role - sports or not.

Under the new program, other than shared book and electives, the Webelos Program and AOL program are effectively separate. So the usual year to get through the Webelos Badge and another 6-9 months to get through AOL seem to fit the program guides very well. Getting through the minumum 7 activity badges should be possible without too much hair loss. As for academics, I've always seen the Webelos Activity badges as more vocational and hobby oriented - much like the Boy Scout merit badges. The new program really is geared to helping the Webelos better prepare for what to expect when they get to Boy Scouts - I think it will do that, but we'll have to wait a year or three to really know.