Bob White

So let me see if I understand. You feel that allowing anyone who says they are the parent (even if they aren't) or the guardian (and by your definition that could be any adult who is there with the scout) to sleep in the same tent alone with the scout, and you see this as "being concerned for the safety of the youth in your charge". WOW!

No one said you had to do this. Many things we do as leaders are not covered by policy. I took the lessons of scouting and applied it to a situation. There is no harm, it follows the lessons we teach the scouts, it has proven helpful more than once. It does not require any time or money to do, And I sleep better knowing that every scout has a buddy. Those are my reasons. You can do something else based on your reasons. I am not the only one who does it this way, and you are not the only one who does it that way.

If the bear is going to attack you one person running out the back is no safer than two runningout the front. The bear can still run several times faster than you, even a few minutes head start is not going to help let alone a few seconds. Actually two in the tent is safer. That way you don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun your buddy. If you want to be safe from bears, tenting with a buddy is the least effective safety measure that comes to mind. BW

Doesn't your permission form require the signature of the parent or legal guardian? Aren't the families instructed ahead of time of the policies requiring the adult in the tent to be a parent or legal guardian? Trust God, make everyone else accountable. BW

"BW The event is a council level event but I will be leading our pack, as the CM is not going to able to attain." You can still only supervise your children since you are the leader.

"Frankly they're not necessarily our business." That would depend on your leaewrship role in the event and your willingness to risk your assets in a lawsuit. As the event leader, it absolutely is your business and your responsibility to see that the policies of the BSA are observed. Failure to do so in the case of YP could easily expose you to criminal and civil litigation. Also since you ignored the G2SS you would forfiet the protection of the BSA liability protection. That measns you hire your own lawyer at your own expense pay your own court fees take the full load of financial burden should you be found liable. Following the rules is a choice. We train youth to make good ones, we hope the leaders will as well.

You don't see legal guardianship as qualifying as a family member?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am not stretching the buddy system I am applying it to a situation where the scout might otherwise be alone and without aid for as long as 8 hours. It is a way of being prepared for emergencies while camping. It is good outdoorsmanship. One of he practices we teach scouts is to check your buddy for signs of frostbite, hypothermia, dehydration, ticks. not many people are capable of doing that by themselves. Buddies are a sound safety practice.

Pinning the Bobcat upside down on a right side up Cub is a scouting ceremony that has been used for decades and was at one time in the ceremonies book of the BSA. "I'm not sure it is "against regulations". I have seen a letter suggesting this practice be stopped but haven't seen anything officially stating it is "against regulations"." It is spelled out in the Tiger Handbook and The Cub Scout Leader Handbook, among other places. I am curious as to what would keep an "experienced" leader, trainer and unit commissioner from knowing and supporting this BSA regulation? What more would it take in order to "be sure"?

The use of the buddy system is a basic element in all safety issues in scouting. It is the easiest most effective way to have the availability of instant assistance in case of a problem. Tenting is no diifernt than any other outdoor activity. Think of the all the things that can happen to a scout in those 8 hours. Illness, intrusion, environmental changes. Having a partner in the tent can literally mean the difference between life and death. You never know when that buddy will be needed, so part of being prepared is always have a buddy. It would not take a huge temperature change to bring on hypothermia in a scout, other illnesses can set in as well in very short periods of time. Having a tent mate to get help when needed can make a big difference. Teaching scouts that they need a buddy at all times is easier when you stay consistent with the message. Thinking that the risk is low so you don't have to do it this time is the same attitude that caused the life of a scout recently in Utah. They were only 150 yards from camp, he was only going to put on some dry clothes and return. Yet in those 150 yards he got disoriented and lost. No emrgency gear, no buddy, no help, and he has never been found. Remember that for 8 hours while scout is in your care you are unconscious, if he is tenting alone he can be in danger and NOBODY else would know. The Boy Scout Handbook says: "The buddy system should always be used when a troop or patrol is hiking, camping, and participating in any aquatics activities. It is a way of sharing the good timesand preventing the bad." Tenting is a big part of camping. They should have a buddy with them to be prepared. BW

How about sharing your meeting agenda with us?

I quoted in my last post what I agreed with. If you take the training you will know that the BSA says LEGAL GUARDIAN. While some people may think there is an upper case G guardian and a lower case g guardian in the policies of the BSA they are confused. The BSA makes that very clear in their training that the policy is LEGAL guardian.

Family camp is still a "Pack" activity. Zippie wrote "I will have a lot of reasonability that weekend with leading the pack at the campout," If you are the leader you can only supervise your children. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

zippie, As the leader of the event you are restricted by the BSA rules from supervising any children other than your own. Cajuncody, I would have no reason to come after you. It is not my rule, I have no authority over you. The rule violated would be the BSA'a and they would not come after you either. They would either remind you the rule and your responsibility to follow it...or they would permanently remove you from membership in the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do agree with what Twocubdadwrote "When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his parent or guardian." (G2SS, p 7, #7). So no, each father and son would need their own tent or the two boys could share one tent and the dads another." Which is exactly what the YP and adult basic training teaches. "And if the other Cubs want to tent with their parent or guardian what do you do then?" You let them. You just don't allow an adult in the tent that isn't the parent or legal guardian. "Yeah I remember the Buddy System. Duh! Use it all the time!" REALLY? Becasue here is what you wrote... " Then little Billie finds out he can't sleep in the same tent with Grandpa Charlie and has to sleep all alone in his own tent" If you had followed the adult training, if you had followed youth protection, if you had BALOO training and were the required leader of the cub family camping event, you would have explained to the families in advance what the policies covering camping were. So the only thing that would have caused grandpa to show up thinking he was going to tent with Billie would be if the family didn't pay attention, and that is no ones fault but the family's. The pack and the BSA are not going to alter the Youth Protection policies for the families error.

What does any individuals opinion have to do with the act being against the rules? If they said in their opinion you should be able to drive 50 miles an hour through a school zone would that make it alright to do it? They are welcome to their opinion, that stil does not give them the right to upturn the boy and risk his safety or expose the CO to a leagal suit. BW

"Can the BSA void the contract with the CO?" Yes. The BSA can nullify the charter if; The CO violates the policies of the BSA. The CO refuses to adhere to the policies of the BSA. The CO fails to fulfill their portion of the "shared agreement". None of these conditions exist from what has been shared by kairos thus far.

No, actually if you take the youth protection and basic training offered to all adult memebers it tells you to put youth together in a tent, and the male adults together in another tent. This really insn't rocket science. You never tent a scout by himself, Remember the "Buddy System"? Good luck trying to follow the YP regs for dormitory (cabin) camping in a tent. It requires that there be at least two adults (both male), both must have YP training (not something a cub parent is necessarily going to have) and a privacy wall that blocks the view of the adults from the youth and the youth from the adults. I have seen few tents except for large military issue that have the ability to do that. The solution is simple. Make sure every family understand what the rules are. If the cub expects to be in a tent with an adult it HAS to be a parent or legal guardian. A side note to commissioners. Your "commission" is to help uphold the policies and programs of the BSA. You need to not only know what they are but you need to accept them. It's part of being Trustworthy and Loyal.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gotcha

That would seem to be an appropriate course of action.

"know, it's very refreshing to hear "you have a plan" instead of "I have a plan" ????????????????????????? I guess I need a translation.

Correct you need the CO to void their contract with the BSA. Notice that littlek said the letter needed to be from the CO not the unit. That is because the charter does not belong to the unit.

Hops Venture Patrol is really nothing new just re-labeled. In the past it has been called Leadership Corps among other things. Think of it as a natural program progression. We start scouts out in a New Scout Patrol learning basic skills. They practice and inprove those skills as an Experienced or Regular patrol, then they move to a Venture Patrol once they have gained confidence and competence in their abilities. There is no less reason for a Venture patrol to succeed than any of the other two types of patrol, if the responsible adult leader understands leadership skills and how to teach them to the junior leaders. Here are some tips for successful Venture patrols: Organize the Venture patrols according to similar interests among the members. Explain the unique awards program that only the Venture patrols can earn. Do BIG stuff. Bike 100 miles on a weekend, take 50 mile canoe trips in the summer, go skiing, sleep in cave, hike a mountain don't expect older teens to want to go camping to the same place they have gone three or four times a year already. Like Trail Pounder recommened you will need an ASM with high adventure interests, and Powerdhorn Training would be a great asset. Just as the New Scout Patrol and the Regular patrols each have their own programs going on at the troop meeting, the Venture Patrol needs their own. The info that will help a New Scout will bore a Venture. That is not a bad thing its just a part of development and you need to recognize that and have a program that addresses it. Venture patrols are a great way to enhance a troops program, but like everything else it takes planning. You can make it work or you can make it fail depending on whether or not you have a plan. Good Luck BW

You cannot "change" COs. The School is the cartered partner with the council not the pack. You can all quit and go start another unit. But the school is free to retain its charter, and the pack number, and select new leaders who will abide by its rules, unusual though they may be. But it is not your charter to take and go elsewhere with. This and other info on the structure of scouting can be learned at New Leader essential training. Call your local District professional for times and dates. BW

Sure there is! The "guardian for the camping trip" is the adult responsible for the Cub in his/her charge. No such term exists in scouting. Having just done a slew of New Leader Essential and Youth Protection courses I can assure you that in the YP video and in the video in the Safety section of NLE the say that a scout can only be in a tent with his parent or legal guardian. Otherwise, they say, the youth and adults must be in separate tents. For adults in a cabin by the way, females are required to be in a separate facility, males must be separated by a privacy wall blocking them from view of the youth and vice-versa. Plus at least two of the adults in the cabin must have YP training, a condition not required in cub family camp since the adult should never be in a tent with a scout that is not his son or LEGAL guardian. It really does help to go to training.