Bob White

KS gives a great outline. the only thing I will add id that I always tried to do them during our monthly outing. Both the scouts and I had other responsibilities to focus on at the troop meeting. BW

That is incorrect also FScouter. The Eagle Scout is required to plan and give leadership to a project. He could do a project where all the materials are already there or he is given the funding to purchase the resources he requires. The only thing the advancement policies state is that the project itself can not be a fundraiser. But that fundaising is allowed to be a part of the project but only for the purpose of purchasing needed equipment. But it is not a mandatory element of every project. There does not have to be fundraising involved. The Scout does not have to buy the supplies. The Scout does not have to arrange for the equipment himself. Depending on the individual project those things might already be available. He is required only to plan and give leadership.

"I know that you must earn the money for your project." That's not true. There is no requirement that the the scout must earn the money for the project. BW

All that is really up to the chartered organization and then the pack committee as it forms. I have worked with many packs and no two were the same in its finances, equipment, etc. Here is what I would recomment though. Make sure the leaders have the resources they need to be successful. Committee chair - Cub Scout Leader Handbook -Guide to Safe Scouting Cubmaster, Treasurer, and Advancement Chairs - PackMaster Software -Cub Scout Leadder handbook Advancement Chair -Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual Cubmaster and Den leaders -Pack and Den Ceremonies Den Leaders (excluding Webelos) -Program Helps -How To Book -Cub Scout Leaders Handbook -Cub Scout Songbook -Rank handbook for their den -Den Flag -Denners cord Webelos Leaders -Cub Scout Leader Handbook -Webelos Leader Guide -Webbelos Handbook -Boy Scout Handbook -Boy Scout Song Book -Den Flag What your total annual budget will be will depend on the program you plan and the items you want to try and pay for for the family. Most packs charge a den dues of $1 each week to help pay for the craft supplies used each week. When your committee goes to training they will learn how to plan a unit budget. BW

KentK, Thousands of trained den leaders and their assistants run every meeting every week with the resources available through the BSA. Here are some tips. 1) of course is get trained. 2) Use the program resources made available to you. The rank handbook, the how to book, the Program helps book, Boy's Life, etc. They will give you all the ideas activities and agendas you need to deliver a great yaer of scouting. Once you become comfortable with the format they offer and you learn how to interlace the resources you can begin to customize the various program selections to suit the den. 3) Slow down! Blue and Gold is the Birthday Party of Cubbing. Nowhere are you instructed to have the rank advancement completed by then. Your goal is to have them done with the rank requirements by the end of the school year. That's another 4 months down the road. 4) Who is responsible for getting the boys through the requirements. AKELA. From Tiger through Bear Akela is any adult in a position to be a positive role model to the Cub. Any Akela can test and approve a requirement. Parent, grandparents, teachers, the babysitter. Everyone plays a role in cubbing. If you did these four things you would find the role of Den Leader easier and more enjoyable and so will the boys you serve. Johndaigler, your posts remind me of an empty skillet...all sizzle no steak. You string together a bunch of hollow phrases none of which have any relationship to the methods of scouting. I understand your are "going to" get trained. But don't you think the helpful thing to do for others is to first learn the program BEFORE you tell others how you think it should be done?

Actually a pack is capable of growing much larger than a troop and have fewer obstacles. I have been to several pack meetings of a pack that had 165 members (20 dens) and it operated just fine. But The largest Troop that I have seen operate well was 65 members in 8 patrols.

Depending on the program the optimum size is 6 to 10, and I did not do the studies, the BSA did, and you do not have the evidence to disprove them do you? Think of the number of friends you hung around with as a boy about 11 was it over 10? There are other factions. Tiger cubs have an adult partner. If you had ten tigers in your son's den could you effectively have a meeting of 20 people in one room in your home? Could most people? Is it fair to expect a boy just learning to lead to be responsible for more than 9 other people. Patrols function best at 6 to eight scouts. It is a social size that a scout is comfortable in, it is a group size that can be lead by a youth member. A patrol is small so that every person gets a position of responsibility. That way each has a purpose for being there and each is missed if absent. Small groups allow each scout to be a major factor in the teams performance helping to develop self-esteem as well as a sense of responsibility. As you advance through training you would do well to keep an open mind to the methods that the BSA have been developed over nearly 100 years of research and practice. You are correct that a cub age boy has different needs. That is why dens have an adult leader and a Patrol does not. That is why a den meeting is shorter than a troop meeting. That is Cub activities are different that a Boy Scout's. That is why the Cub advancement program is different than Boy Scout's. That is why Cub program methods are different than Boy Scouts. The program methods and elements of the BSA change with the ages and stages of the youth being served. So the evidence in the proven effectiveness of the scouting program...when it is followed. Where is your evidence to the contrary? BW

Since it was not a safety or program issue there would be no need for sending him home. Consider rather than the stern leacture that you would talk with him as you would any other scout. When I said to send a scout home understand that I would never take him, or have another leader take him. We let the parents know from day one that if your son's actions meet either of these two criteria you will be called and you are to come get him. We don't care how far, how long, or what else you are doing. Had a parent drive over a thousand miles to get a boy who could not behave like a scout. I didn't lose one minute of sleep over it.

Adults pay for their food, and for extended trips receive reimbursement for gas. All adult leader training is paid for including $100 towards Wood Badge.

"You don't want to join those other guys! They don't do anything. They yell at the kids, etc." all of which are not true. The other pack is known as the "bad pack"." You cannot control what the parents say, you can only counsel and coach those in scouting. Not everyone listens however. You will find that some scouters are so set in THEIR way of doing things that they will, through knee jerk reaction, reject the SCOUTING way no matter how sound the advice. So a good commissioner will focus on what can be changed by finding people in the troubled pack willing to grow and learn and coaching them back on the path. That unit's Commissioner should find them someone who knows and understands the Cub Scout program to coach them. Now about what they are saying. A good commissioner would find out if it was true. Oh and Ed, as a commissioner, you will find it does all come down to program. But not everyone listens. But as you already pointed out you are not their commissioner. I wish them well in their recovery, no one wants to see a unit collapse. But if they continue to reduce in numbers,...say to 7 or less, their chances of recovery are slim unless they have a major overhaul in key leadership. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

EagleinKY is very close to bringing inthe committee. Here is his next step. Now that the Junior leadership has tried to counsel the scout it is the Scoutmaster's turn. If coaching and counseling from the SM does not reduce or mitigate the problem here is what the BSA program says to do. When a scouts behavior interferes with the delivery of the program OR if he endangers his own safety or the safety of others, he should be sent home. The problem is then given to the committee, who with input from the parents, determine what the scout will have to do to retain his memebrship in the unit. It is not the role of the Program Leaders to punish other peoples children. I hope this answers the questions regarding the committee's role. BW

Congrats, What a wonderful problem to have! Here would be my suggestion. membership solution: Your cut off point should depend on the physical limits of your meeting place. After that simply explain that at the moment your meeting place is at capacity. Look at the ages of your scouts start making plans to match the number of New scouts coming in with the number of older Scouts aging out. Your Program solution: You will need Six Assistant Scoutmasters. Two for each of the three program levels. Guide them in operating three distinct meeting and outdoor activity programs. It is not necessary for the entire troop to do the same thing at the same time. Do programs that are specific to each specifc patrol level. You do not have to be at every activity, you can have able assistants there and you rotate through to observe, evaluate, train, counsel and coach. You are in a perfect position to take a good program and make it great. Best wishes BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

DEs do stuff???

I think perhaps you need to re read YOUR original post Ed. Nowhere do you say anything about one pack bad-mouthing the other. You tell us that one pack is growing and one is dying. You say that one pack got all the new scouts and the dying pack got none. You told us you were not the UC involved or the DE and I presume you are not on the committee of each pack. Later you tell us you are not trained as a UC and have not yet read the UC guidebook. So not only are you not involved in the problem you do not have the training or experience to help yet. The solution for the pack? Let someone who understands the job and has the ability to teach and coach the leaders into following a Cub Scout program go in and help. As far as the adults at the growing pack who are badmouthing the dying pack. Even if what they are saying is true they souldn't be saying it. That situation can only be dealt by counseling one person at a time. Again you would need to find someone in district service who understands the coaching/counseling skills of scouting and it could be a long process depending on how many people need to be counseled. What did I miss?

"The other pack badmouths the pack in trouble to parents & kids." As a commissioner is it your mission to try and control what is said by all the adult in pack A, or to get pack B the assistance they need to improve their program to the boys?

This is probaly one of the most useful and scouting accurate threads I have ever read on this board. I hope EVERYONE takes the time to read and understand this information. An "Awesome job" goes out to all contributors!(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Look at the delivery of the program & see where it is lacking. Then, make sure all the leaders are trained & get everyone from the pack together & develop an action plan for reviving this pack. Then get into the lone elementary school & hold a sign-up. Do the same in the youth group of the CO church. Now see Ed you knew the right answer all along. As I said before this is a program issue. Iff you can find a person who can help them understand what a good pack and den program involves and get them to follow through their problem is solved. BW

"BW - this . . . "Den size has nothing to do with the adults ability to manage it and everything to do about how kids are wired to be able to function as a social group." . . . is TOO black and white. I hope this isn't what we're teaching our Scouters at any level of Training because it lacks scientific (eduacation research) and experiential validation or truth." JohnDaigler, to paraphrase a famous line..."Get thee to a training course". This is what the Den, Patrol and crew methods are about john. it is explained in the first training course you take. The BSA did the research they have the sociology and psychology research to back it up. Education is the key to good leadership. This Scouting thing is a methodology. It is based on real knowledge and requires that you learn its methods to be able to do it well. BW

Sure scouting is a game, but not just any game. Just playing games in a scout uniform isn't scouting. Actually....Scouting is a specific method of education with specific learning objectives. Its based on needs and characteristics of youth at various ages and stages of development. So don't think there is no science involved. Baden-Powell called it "a game with a purpose". But it isn't just about having fun, and B-P made that very clear. It is having fun while moving along a specific framework of methods to achieve a specific result. It is much more a fun way to learn, than just a game to play for fun. We could have boys dressed in scout uniforms and have them play video games all day long and they would have fun, but that doesn't make it scouting. The science of scouting is in the ability of adults to teach and share key values and ideals WHILE having fun doing it. That is the game of scouting.

Kudos to Twocubdad. The role of the trained adult leaders is to train junior leaders, not just in outdoorskills but in how to lead. That would include teaching patrol leaders and senior patrol leaders how to problem solve and to resolve conflicts. The goal is to help the scout think through his own behavior and make the personal choice to change. ethical decision making based on the values of the Oath and Law. Not doing push-ups, cleaning latrines, singing songs, etc..

Ed, When you say the DE asked the other pack for support what did you mean if not to share resources in some way. Did he want them to just remember the other pack in their prayers? "Support" usually means to offer manpower or money or energy, all of which are resources of the pack. Now Ed, didn't you say this pack had a diminishing membership? Let's go check. 9/24/04 Ed worote.There was a change in leadership about 4 years ago. Membership started to wane about 3 years ago." So Ed according to the Commissioners criteria for a healthy unit, how does the pack do? Which measuring points are they strong in and where are they weak? Just because there is one national program doesn't mean that everyone follows it. If this pack did, they most likely would not be dying. Like people, healthy units do not die. Something was wrong. And no Ed we don't just want boys in the program we want them in a quality program. As a commissioner I am surprised you don't know that. Are you familiar with the responsibility of a Commissioner? I know it's in the training and the guidebook, "To insure that every eligible youth has the opportunity to belong to a quality scouting program". Tell us about this unfair recruiting practice again.(Ed wrote)"But when one unit is not given a fair chance to recruit from the main source of boys as the other. I see...so how was it unfair(Ed wrote)"Both Packs held their sign-up night at the lone elementary school together NO...both packs spoke to the same people the same night and everyone seemed to pick one over the other? Why that's outrageous. How dare the families listen to both and choose one of them. Who allowed such a micarriage of justice? Ed, blaming the other unit for being better at recruiting is silly. I am sure there is a troop in your area whose membership is diminishing while others increase. Are the growing troops at fault for attracting more youth, or is the diminishing troop at fault for not offering a program that attracts and retains scouts? As a commissioner what do you see as the solution?

"The parents are also painfully aware of friends, relatives, coworkers, and acquaintances that have horror stories associated with poor Cub Scout Dens." Who cares what rumors parents hear? And I would never suggest you threaten anyone to be a leader. I am suggesting you select, motivate and support the leaders you need. Anyone capable of being a good parent is capable of being a good den leader. They just have to be asked individually and shown that they have the tools and ability to succeed at it.

Because even if you haven't attended Commissioner Basic Training, I am confident with your experience that you would have studied the Unit Commissioner Guidebook and you know and use the unit health evaluation that it provides. Right?

We have used an overlap course where Intro to Outdoor Skills and Webelos leader Outdoor were run simultaneously, using an agenda that brought the two groups together for some course topics and separated them for others. The groups got separate attention for areas where the program differed significantle, and in other areas wher they were sib=milar they shared the program and the difference where clarified by the presenter. It seemed to work out quite well. BW

"I would agree except when the troubled Pack was doing good, they had better attendance and Pack meeting, summer camp & distinct functions than the other Pack. An unusual way for a commissioner to measure unit quality.