vol_scouter

@HashTagScouts  Even if the is not a new Scout Patrol, the older girl or boy will be learning skills with younger youth while their friends are doing more advanced activities.  To adults, the distinctions are small but for youth, they can be substantial.  I have seen this many times, but others may have seen such situations evolve differently.  

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When has national EVER shown their research?

Once again, this was not research from National but a third party.  The research is solid.

National has released much of their research but for many reasons have not released the raw data.

40 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I've heard about that research, but not seen it.  

I question reaching the conclusion from the research.  We may be losing opportunity with some families that become committed to other programs, but I think we lose far more from burn-out and from a too-early meaningless program.   

I see lots of families drop out of baseball, soccer and other activities after the first few years.  I'd argue that when a child enters 3rd grade, those parents are looking for something new, fresh and the next bigger step.  IMHO, that should be scouting with knives, fire, outdoors and shooting sports.  

Instead of waiting for the youth to be ready for the program, we've dumbed down the program to the point the program loses it's benefit and it's attraction.

Once again, I do not disagree and am certain that some families get burned out early.  The issue is of magnitude in these discussions.  Are the early signups for Lions and Tigers really beneficial in the long run or would it be better to join later?  That is a thorny question that would take a huge and expensive survey to complete.

To me, the real issue is that all in Scouting see the Cub Scout programs as having particular starting points.  If Cub Scouts was easier to join for a year or two, leave for a year or two, and then return again, I think that the appeal could be increased.  In that case, neither the child nor the adult volunteer would feel like they are making such a long commitment but rather a commitment of a year at a time.

If we could likewise make Scouts BSA friendlier for coming and going, it might help us to inculcate the values of the Scout Oath and Law into many more children and youth.  Scouts BSA is harder to make it friendly and it has a nearly singular access point at about age 11.  A girl or boy who join much after age 11 could find themselves in a patrol of 11 & 12 year olds that teens usually do not like.

In my opinion, it is critical for growth of the movement to make it easier for youth to join whenever they wish and then to find the program accepting of them at whatever their age.

8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I think the biggest scouting killer is pushing scouting down to such young ages where parents treat scouting more like baby sitting and the benefits at that age are not that significant.  By the scouts get to the key ages that make huge differences, the whole family is burnt out on the program. 

National has third party research that shows that families are committing to activities in kindergarten that will guide the family time for the next several years, i.e. if the child is not in Scouting in kindergarten, there may never be time for Scouting.  This is the biggest reason for Lions and Tigers.  The programs do get a lot of interest and new members.

That said, starting so early for a program that can go all the way from kindergarten to high school seems like an enormous commitment.  

I do not disagree with your premise but do believe that this is a situation that is very complex and does not have a clearly correct solution.

How many children start Scouting as a Lion and end up an 18 year old in the program (and hopefully Eagle).  I doubt that it is a very large percentage.

@Eagle1993  Thank you for all of your commentary and insights through this long and complex legal wrangling.

7 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I have seen some thrown out as well... many for good cause.

It's the internal power politics I think @Eagle94-A1 refers to.  Stuff that the guidebooks don't talk about, but that is there plain as day.

Never been thrown out, either, but have seen a fair share of unethical behavior from volunteers and professionals.  You can paint folks from both groups with that brush...

 

You are so correct.  There are mainly outstanding people in Scouting both in the volunteer and professional ranks.  A few unethical or egotistical individuals can taint the vision of the whole.  

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

How many councils have you served in to make this assessment??

Not many councils but very active in one council on the EB and EC as well as numerous committees. I have served on and chaired national committees and been asked to attend parts of some National Executive Committee meetings and have attended National Executive Board meetings both by invitation.  
 

Professionals work with a volunteer chair to develop a list of nominees for the committee and, after two years, the chair.  Most of the time it is a mutual work but I have seen chairs be insistent on certain people. It is uncommon that the professional gets to select the people that they want. 
 

All national standing committees are chaired by NEC or NEB members.  The NEC can assign the chairs. 
 

Councils are more political than is the National Council as to committee assessments.  
 

I stand by my ascertains as I have been a part of the national committees.  

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Maybe not directly, but via policies, guidelines, and other required rules makes me feel pretty managed. 

Those policies, guidelines, and other required rules are NOT promulgated by professionals but rather by volunteers on committees that are staffed by professionals who have NO vote.  Those committee recommendations are sent to the National Executive Board who makes the final approval to cause implementation.  Volunteers run the National Council - not the professional staff.  

@fred8033  At our camp, welding is in high demand which is a trade unless one talks about how a plasma is formed that in turn causes the changes that result in a weld.  All the other most popular merit badges are STEM.  Youth want to explore their world that is a STEM world.

Some of the cases seem to me to have been difficult at the time for the BSA to find.  But cases such as @ThenNow and @Eagle1970 seem to be impossible that someone would not have known that there was at least something happening that demanded more investigation to something obviously wrong.  It is sickening that Scouting professionals and volunteers failed to protect the Scouts.  

@ThenNow  From my understanding, there were many professionals who felt that something constructive should result from the information in the IVF.  After seeing the ones that were publicly released, the paucity of information, especially for older cases, would tend to negate any useful study.  My understanding is that legal counsel and PR were rather emphatic to keep everything behind lock and key.   So feel better that efforts have been made.  I feel that examining the files and consulting with experts could have provided enhanced warnings and some keys.  
 

The 1960’s and early 1970’s was a time when people tended to deny that such things were occurring, though the BSA and other organizations knew that it was.  Hard to remember the attitude of the time but it might have required convincing.  
 

In your case, it is obvious to me that there was concealment.  Not sure that applies to all cases.  
 

Many mistakes were made that had tragic effects.  

16 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

There was a court order and they fought it all the way to the Oregon Supreme Court. I am not a lawyer either. 

@johnsch322  is correct.   The BSA fought the release.  When the records were released, most names were redacted if my memory is correct.

It is my belief that the BSA did not wish to have the records for precisely the reason that happened after the Oregon case.  Attorneys used the records to find potential clients from what has been intimated to me.   As they found one victim, they could often find more.  It was not an easy task because the records centered on the perpetrator but there might be enough information to link to a chartered organization or unit along with a time frame.

I know that a major reason that the BSA had never released the information was this fear.

One can see that such a fear of a potential to cause more lawsuits would overwhelm the desire to use the files to inform in order to prevent future occurrences.   The problem is that such fears cannot be logically evaluated or reliable magnitude of effect calculations constructed.  So whether it was a reasonable stance or not will be in the eye of the beholder.  For someone such as @ThenNow , who would likely argue that some sort of scrubbed information could have been released and that someone in the regional office should have found out about the local Scout Executive’s corruption.   For ardent BSA supporters, the more people who would have had some access to the files would have created leaks.

It is my belief that some where along the timeline that the BSA should have tried to mine the IVF to try to ferret out bad actors still in the organization and learn who to better protect our youth.

58 minutes ago, PACAN said:

@MikeS72   Thanks...I found a 2013 list where it showed 10K units and 350K scouts.  Clearly that is not the case now but how in the world are councils going to sponsor even 2000 units unless they provide the same oversight (read slim and none) oversight to them.  Another example where National is pushing workload to councils with no resources.  

The Chapter 11 means that the National Council has no resources to send.

I am reposting what I wrote earlier on the other thread:

So in my profession of medicine, documentation is very important with time as the medical record has become much less about communicating the condition of the patient to other physicians and is mainly for medical legal and accounting purposes.  When I have reviewed one of my charts or been an expert witness, I am often struck about obvious omissions.   The mantra is if it is not documented, it was not done.  It is far too common to find a situation where I am certain that things were done but there is no supporting information.   Lawsuits can turn on such evidence.

In reading some of the IVF that have been released, it is clear that little was documented.  We can infer that more was done than was documented but cannot prove it.   So in some cases, proper steps were taken and there wo7ld have been little ways to have detected the perpetrator before the incident.  In those cases, the BSA could have done as well as could be expected in that time but lacks documentation to prove it.

Then there are cases like some have shared with us in these forums when the BSA had warning signs and even knew of potentially abusive situations and failed to act.   There is no way to paint a happy face on these situations - the BSA failed the Scouts.  In the former cases, the BSA could not prove that it did the right thing.

I have no idea how many cases would fall into either category and in some ways, it does not matter.  All of us failed those Scouts.

From what I have seen, the BSA has tried to prevent abuse and seems to have done far better than other youth serving organizations.   While that is comforting that we as the volunteers have done better than other groups, it does not exonerate us on our failures.  So the survivors deserve our concern and care.  We must say that what happened was not acceptable and that we are all dedicated to making Scouting as safe as we can possibly make it.

A survivor who feels that the BSA is not redeemable needs to be understood.  Had I been abused as a boy, that could well be my attitude and if we are all honest with ourselves, could apply to many of us.

Doing better than others just says that we did not fail as badly as others.

I believe that Scouting has been beneficial to far more Scouts than it has harmed so I hope that it survives.  It should survive only if we as volunteers can make it far safer than it has been.

28 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Ack. This doesn't read or sit well. The Stang to JLSS: "Where's my money, honey?"  

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/6a2cd45d-dcbb-4ee1-b752-7b7de821412f_10013.pdf

So many things that I would like to say but the moderators do not allow conversations about exorbitant attorney fees.

Some professionals had been working for the BSA for a considerable time and had their defined benefit plan frozen so that they could not make further contributions.  I believe that retirees did not see any changes to their plans but those who had not retired saw some reductions.  
 

Even with those changes, the PBGC says that the plans are underfunded.  If the BSA emerges from Chapter 11, the business plan calls for adequate funding.  Should the BSA file for Chapter 7, there will need to be payments made into the PBGC to make up for the contributions that the BSA would have made.  
 

Also, any national employees near retirement will retire with a Chapter 7 filing. 
 

The survivors will most likely fare better with the BSA surviving with a Chapter 11 filing. 

1 hour ago, ALongWalk said:

At what point did the BSA discontinue allowing new hires to take part in the pension program?

Around the 2017 plus or minus a year or so.  There are still retirement plans but the defined benefits plan is no longer available to new employees and employees who have not been there for a considerable period of time.

54 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

It would be interesting to understand further.  BSA and LCs are all independent companies in effectively a franchise like model.  (yet another item that could be argued) ... BSA works like a benefit service provider for LCs ... I can't find any PBGC specifics on this, but what I do read makes me think each LC could be liable for the unfunded part for their employees.    I could not envision LCs becoming liable for the pensions of BSA national employees including BSA national employees functioning as registrars and scout shop employees.  ... but then again, this ain't simple stuff.

My understanding is that BSA will pay the PBGC first.  They get the first opportunity to fulfill any deficit and only if there is not enough money would they go to the councils.  The model is one where the BSA performs HR functions for itself and the councils.   The BSA cannot hire or fire in the councils with only a single caveat.  All professional positions council or national council require that the professional be commissioned that is a function of the national council.  The national council could revoke a commission that would then make someone no longer qualified to hold that position.   Otherwise, the national council cannot directly affect council hire and fire decisions.

1 hour ago, MYCVAStory said:

No.  That's the debtor's problem.  While the Judge has expressed support for "continuing the mission" of the BSA it's ultimately up to the debtor to propose a plan IT feels will work.  Inherent in that is the agreement of the other parties that the BSA will survive at least long enough to pay any amounts owed.

Actually, the BSA must submit a business plan that shows that it can survive the next five years.  The plan must be based upon reasonable and likely projections.  So the BSA could claim to have modest growth in the next five years since that would be a reasonable possibility but dramatic growth cannot be supported because there is no evidence that is likely to occur.  The business plan must show that the BSA can meet all financial obligations for the next five years so it is more than making payments to the trust fund.  The BSA presented a business plan that I assume the judge can accept or reject.  

The longer this proceeding goes on, the less likely it is that the BSA can emerge Chapter 11.

Scoutreach is for troops and packs in economically distressed neighborhoods.  The council usually covers the registration fee and, oftentimes, provides uniforms perhaps with some equipment as well.  With the challenges of covid that decreased the Scouts to participate in activities that raises money for the councils along with the effects of covid and chapter 11 on the number of Scouts has taxed council budgets.  Combine that with councils needing to make sizeable contributions to the chapter 11 settlement (though not paid, those funds are set aside for whenever a settlement is reached, if it is) there are fewer funds to pay for the increased registration fees that are decreased somewhat for Scoutreach.  Councils have been forced to curtail the number of Scoutreach youth or even suspend the program, hopefully for a short time only.

36 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I'll challenge that.  Until the last two years, I was at summer camp for 17 years straight.   

• Most chosen - Eagle required ...  first, aid, emergency prep, camping, swimming, etc
• Next highest - were cool rare opportunities - Small boat sailing, ATV, horsemanship, astronomy, etc
• Basic badges - Finger carving, climbing, riffle shooting, archery. etc
• Trades related - Welding, etc
• Filling slots were done by some badges.  Not unpopular, but usually a good number of scouts.  Mammal studies.  Bird Studies. Forestry.  Chess.  

STEM - Were popular, but depending on which one.   People who signed up for stem usually had been thru the other badges or wanted to do a session where they earned three instead of two separate for two.   ...  Rocketry was popular.  Electronics, somewhat.  etc.  

One trouble is defining what is STEM versus what is trades or just plain old long-standing badge.  

STEM can be popular, but not really any more than others. 

Our camp’s most popular merit badge is Chemistry.  

56 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Math is not Scouting

Neither is hiking, camping, canoeing, or an particular activity.  As you say, the program is in the entertainment business.  Children wish to explore their world  The most popular merit badges at summer camp are STEM.  So if you are trying to say that STEM activities do not attract and entertain children, then you would not be correct.   Scouting needs to incorporate STEM activities into the program in a manner to challenge those who are interested but not negatively affect those who are less interested.  It is a technique that works and attracts youth.  

3 hours ago, yknot said:

Membership numbers as of March were down substantially according to the bankruptcy plan. I would guess some councils are using the bankruptcy to downsize. I just wish there was  some kind of long term planning being done on the part of some of these councils  to preserve the properties as parks/open space with continued public/scout access. It's painful to see these properties eyed for development like the one in Connecticut. 

The TCC has evaluated all council properties so that each council is expected to sell the property for that estimated price.   One way or the other, the councils wish to get as much as reasonably possible to pay as much of the contribution to pay the obligation for the chapter 11.  
 

Except for the attorneys, there are no winners in this process.

It is fascinating to me that these councils are selling camps prior to Judge Silverstein issuing her judgment in the BSA Chapter 11.  Our council will sell a camp to an identified purchaser only if the proposed settlement is actually confirmed but not before.  Perhaps the councils feel certain of the Judge's ruling or feel that they are better off with the liquidity no matter the outcome.  Just find it fascinating that they are selling now.

@ThenNow  Sorry, in my screwy mind, it was clear where the quote lay but no one else would be able to read my mind, especially from a distance! 😂  I should have provided the reference.

This excerpt is from a webpage accessed first going to Home - Philmont Scout Ranch High Adventure- Cimarron NM (philmontscoutranch.org) and clicking in the red box near the top of the page to go to https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/cooks-peak-fire-update wherein the quote lies.