Twocubdad

I can agree with that last point. Earning Eagle in the eighth grade is no better than dropping out in the eight grade and showing a few months before your 18th birthday to finishing checking the box. In both cases you've only been in Scouts for maybe 3.5 or 4 years. My goal for the Scouts I serve is to help them get the most they can from the program. That is accomplished over their full seven or so years of eligibility.

I think you're all overthinking it.

No, I don't have son's in high school. The Two Cubs are now both in college -- one sophomore and one junior. Both made Eagle, one at 16 and one at 17. My older son earned a couple palms and served as SPL for his jamboree troop the summer he was 17. My younger son earned 4 palms, aged out the middle of his senior year and was an active ASM (including summer camp) until the day they left for college. Through high school both played band and were soloists at the regional level. One also played football. Both took AP level classes and started college with more than 20 credit hours each. We make time for those things we value. My experience both as a youth and as a Scoutmaster for almost nine years is just the opposite. Having the goal of Eagle still on the horizon is a great motivation for Scouts to stay involved through high school. Without the challenge of Eagle ahead of them, they tend to drift into other interests. Finishing Eagle in the eighth grade before a better offer comes along doesn't sound like much of an idea to me. If Scouting isn't important enough to a young man to make time for it while in high school, then why does he want to be an Eagle? Let's just make Boy Scouts for 11-14 year olds and call it good.

"Get your project over with ASAP" "Family Life, Personal Fitness and Personal Management are easier if you do them at the same time" "Environmental Science is tough. Get it at summer camp." "Get all three citizenships with Mrs. Jones. She's easy." "Personal Management is easier if you get it before you have a job" "SPL is a lot of work. Librarian and Historian will meet the requirement too." "Finish Eagle before high school." "I wonder why we haven't seen Billy since he made Eagle?" "Get it over with" is terrible advice. How about "Slow down. Enjoy your time in Scouting. Take your time to find a project which is meaningful to you."

I'm seeing problems which seem to be cause by a rather short "time out" function or maybe I'm just being dropped I've not bee able to tell how much time you have before you are automatically logged out. If this is an in activity issue, apparently the system doesn't recognize typing a response as an activity, as I've been dropped while still typing a response. What I have noticed is while writing a response I'll frequently see the auto saved box light up in the bottom right corner. After some period of time, that stops and I get a "server error" box which requires me to click ok in the box then click back on the text I was writing. I've also noticed that when I try to post while this is going on, my response doesn't get posted. I have to log out then log back in to resolve this. Is this how it is supposed to work? Shouldn't we get an inactivity warning before being logged out or at least a message that we have been logged out due to inactivity? Anyone else having similar issues?

Not in adult leadership positions.

It took me a couple passes through for me to figure out where you are coming from, BLME, but after letting your post sink in, I'm perfectly fine with your approach evaluating Scout Spirit. You've done a great job of describing those elements which should constitute Scout Spirit. But here's the rub, somewhere there is a parent -- actually probably a lot of parents -- when faced with their nearly 18-year-old son not being given the Eagle award to which they feel he is entitled, will describe your definition of Scout Spirit as "stringent and most probably artificial" or "nit-picking technicalities". Been there, done that, got the patch, hat and t-shirt. As a long-time lurker, you probably remember my old friend Beavah. Da Beav was not a band-wagon kind of guy. He frequently was the first and usually only poster to take the side of the person not participating in the discussion -- the Scoutmaster in this case. Devining the other side of the story usually required some between-the-lines reading and maybe a few assumptions. Beav's usual assumption was always that the person being tried in absentia was a reasonable Scouter with the best interest of the Scouts and the program at heart. I have a soft spot in my heart for Scoutmasters, not so much from having been one for years, but from having HAD ONE for years as a Scout. (My old SM is still a very dear friend). I take great exception of your description of egotistical Scoutmasters other than in extremely rare instances. I have met many Scoutmasters with who disagree on a number of programmatic issues, but never as you describe. Anyone who as been a Scoutmaster for more that a couple of years has faced the circumstance of a Scout who wanted to be a Eagle Scout but didn't particularly care anything about participating in the usual activities of being a Boy Scout. Any number of times I've had young men return to the program after a year or two or more absence looking to complete Eagle. My request of such situated Scouts is always to "get involved." This request is often independent of the Scout having completed the six month participation requirement. I will usually ask the Scout himself what level of involvement he can commitment. Clearly, I will have a number in mind but happily the Scout's commitment is usually greater than what I would have asked for. An added requirement? I'll concede some will say yes, but I believe it to be it a reasonable part of being a member of the troop. Frankly, BSA's instruction that we should remove inactive Scouts from the charter is, I think, disingenuous. I will admit the part of MyBoy's OP with which I'm most uncomfortable is the SM being unaware of his son's real participation in the troop due to the SM's frequent absences. I'm the kind of SM who is at the scout house whenever the lights are on, so it is difficult for me to wrap my head around that. I would like to hear the SM's side of that and hear what the other troop leaders have to say. (Insert standard language regarding the limitations of online forums here.) No matter how thin you slice the ham, it has two sides. Unfortunately, Basementdweller is all too right about appeals getting ugly. I've been screamed at by a sobbing mother, called a SOB during a troop meeting by a furious father and wasted countless hours which could have been better spent on actual troop programs (or work or my family or just about anything else.). Won't make that mistake again. The only way to win is not play the game. You don't like the decisions of the troop? (And yes, it will be a troop decision involving the SM, committee chair and COR). Then appeal or find another troop more agreeable to you point of view. The troop will not invest resources into defending an appeal. We understand that probably means the appeal will go against us, but that's okay. The remaining Scouts in the troop come out ahead. Of course that means the Scout will be working with through the council -- not the troop -- to complete and receive his Eagle.

My son is about one year ahead of MyBoy's. He is in his second semester of college. I can give you similar stories which are more than a year old, if it works better for you.

Did you laugh at the SM when he said that? It would have been difficult not to. The Chaplain is problem #2. Problem #1 is the SM is a coward and is allowing the chaplain to bully the boys. 100% guarantee that if a Scout does complain about the Chaplain, he'll find another excuse to do nothing. And it's a 90% likelihood someone has and he has ignored/blown off/justified his continuing inaction. As a prospective/new parent, you are in a precarious situation. Your complaints can be written off easily as "the new helicopter dad" whining. But in the fable it was a child who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes. I would start by making it known your son will not be subjected to any physical punishment by the troop for any reason. Neither will he be called out in front of the other Scouts because his father insists the troop follow youth protection guidelines. Violation of either will result in a formal complaint to the Scout Executive. It only takes a spark. I guarantee there are other Scouts/parents who feel the same way you do.

My son called home from college the other day complaining about his physics professor. He just got his first test back on which he made a 55. Not to bad considering the average for the class was less that 50 and no one passed, according to the professor. And there is no curve . If he makes 100 on the remaining three test and the final he still makes a B. According to him, the test is a common on for all sections of the course offered by a number of different professors. Unfortunately, his professor covered only a portion of the material in class. The practice test his professor distributed only covered those topics the professor covered in class, Hardly seems fair, huh? So his options are to file a complaint against the professor, informally whine to the department chair, or have me call and raise Cain with the university over the shabby treatment my son is receiving, pointing out that I'm paying $20,000 a year and expect better instruction. Instead, my son, an Eagle Scout, has done the following: 1) he has signed up for tutoring for the course, 2) he's found when other sections of the course are being taught and is planning on auditing the classes taught by other professors, 3) he's figured out how to download course materials and study guides from all the other professors, and, 4) he spoke to the graduate assistant who teaches his lab for the course and found out that the exams are all based on the textbook and that he should focus on that, not the materials the professor gives him. So, Myboy, my boy, what lessons do you want your son to gain from this experience? How do you want him to handle similar situations in, say, September?

Great discussion -- finally! Barry wrote: "... it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed." Exactly. When I first started as SM a good friend who had been a SM for decades told me his greatest challenge was to evaluate the ability of the youth leadership and to moderate his level of engagement depending on what the youth leaders required. It is the SM's job to give the youth leaders the freedom and responsibility to lead the program, but not to destroy it. We have a responsibility to ALL the Scouts to deliver a good program to them. Controlled failure may be a great learning tool for the senior youth leadership, but not at the cost of no program for the Scouts under them. We don't cancel campouts due to the failures of leadership. The failure is that the adults had to step in and run things, not that the campout was cancelled. To me, that is the core of the method of Adult Association. Not to get off in the weeds with anecdotes, Stosh, but a carefully-crafted program can keep the older Scouts engaged in both HA and the overall troop program, including summer camp. First, there are plenty of opportunities for high adventure outings, The key to getting to also remain active in the regular troop program is giving the older Scouts A LOT of freedom and responsibility at summer camp. The deal I have with the older guys is is they run the troop and I leave them alone. Don't want to take merit badge classes? Fine. Want to sleep through breakfast? Okay. Stay up all night with your buddies? Fine with me as long and you don't disturb anyone else. But in return, you run the troop -- take the younger guys to the shower, make sure they find their MB classes, deal with home sickness, provide fun things to do. On their own, my older guys come up with a duty roster taking turns with shower detail or hauling the troop to early bird swim. Frankly, I take a fair bit of heat from parents who think their kids are "wasting" camp and camp staff and other troop leaders who want to know why my guys are at the shower house at 11:00 (because they were working past "lights out" and this is their first opportunity to shower.) Consequently, I have Scouts who go to summer camp seven and eight years. That compares to a national average of, what, two years? Guys with conflicting summer jobs ride up to camp on their days off just to spend time with the troop. Most years I have 18- and 19-year-old ASM camp with us. If we treat them like they young me they are they will come. But the point is this isn't a black or white/up or down issue. Leadership should be a shared proposition between the senior scouts and younger boys, between the adults and the Scouts. Dumping responsibility on Scouts they are ill-equipped to handle is just as great a recipe for disaster as is giving them the responsibilities without the authority.

Two troops near us have converted to TL. One was a small unit which dropped BSA all together. The other a larger unit, but about half the Scouts moved to another CO and are continuing with BSA. We've gained Scouts from both.

So "reflecting badly" is now the standard? You mean worse than being a member of the bar association?

Fair and consistent are the by-words. It would be neither if we hold anyone to a higher standard than the lowest minimum. I believe it was Emerson who said "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind."

JASM in our troop tends to be "emeritus" status for former SPLs/Eagles still active in the troop who still want to be active and contribute. I try to treat them as -- surprisingly -- as junior Scoutmasters and give them mentoring responsibilities along the same lines as the adult ASM. Usually they choose jobs which interest them and those responsibilities at which they have excelled. The fellow who was a great Troop Guide may choose to work with the current TGs helping them plan their program with the new Scouts. Typically, I let them write their own job description. From what you've written, perhaps this young man would like to work with the Chaplain's Aide? (And I understand that technically the Chaplain is supposed to be an adult, but a new troop with 11 member I also imagine you may not have every adult position filled.) The goal should be to keep the older Scouts interested and engaged. One of the best ways to do that is allowing them to write their own ticket.

Or maybe after the troop swim gets redirected to the splash pad, the boys will learn something about the consequences of their choices. Learning occurs.

I had forgotten your earlier posts where you wrote of the campout experience and the conversation you had with the SM. I think you've fulfilled your obligations to the CO troop, dude. If they ask for your input, offer it. Otherwise, stay out of it. Oh, and attach your UC resignation latter to their recharter packet.

Yeah, you being the UC is a terrible idea. As UC, you need to punt this mess to the ADC or DC today. But given your involvement (entanglements?) with the CO, I like qwase's advice with one tweak: first ask if they want your advice. A smart SM knows new parents and Scouts are going to be much more comfortable talking with their old den leader until they have a chance to build a relationship with the SM and the other leaders of the new troop. You could approach the SM (and I would include the CC) by saying as the DL for these boys you still get a lot of feedback from them and their parents which you think they should hear. IF THEY WANT, you are willing to sit down with them. Then, as Austinole says, just be honest. Otherwise, if you just show up and dump a lot of negatives on them, you'll be the bad guy dissing their program. There is still a good chance that will happen any way, but you should do what you can to improve the odds.

I think the advice YOU have been given thus far is good. Trying to talk your parents into changing their minds will likely backfire. You have to SHOW them and that means putting your head down and pushing forward with your goals. That said, I personally think holding your drivers' license over your head is a terrible idea. I am an Eagle Scout, father of two Eagles and have been SM for 8 years. I've frequently advised parents against it. My biggest complaint is it pushes boys to try to earn Eagle earlier than they otherwise would and, in my opinion, should. The times I seen parents really stick to it, the kid earns Eagle at 15, gets his license and quits Scouting. That's not my goal. We work hard to keep Scouts engaged in the program all the way to 18. The game with drivers' licenses works against that. Unfortunately, too many parents see Eagle as the purpose and goal of Scouting. It is not.

I get this a lot, although generally not from the SPL. The SPL usually figures he sought out the gig and doesn't have much of an argument. I must say, however, my guys are much better at it than your's.

What you have described is a reasonable amount of Adult Association. I think you're clearly on the encourage side of the line. I'm betting the whole "just want to have fun" thing is a ruse -- a cover for a lack of confidence, a lack of understanding of the process or embarrassment and being behind his peers. Seems to me all you are doing is providing him some additional motivation to engage in an important part of the program -- skillful Scoutmastership!

Does anyone charge them on late dues? Our troop charges $100 annual dues. We have a dickens of a time getting people to pay in time for us to complete the re-charter. We recharter the end of next month but so far have very few families which have paid. (Affordability is NOT an issue -- I'll go into that later, if necessary) The money really isn't an issue, it's the additional time and hassle of trying to do recharter with incomplete data. The deadline for paying is Feb. 1. We're considering charging a $50 late fee for payments received after that date. After Feb. 15 we're going to drop Scouts from the charter. There will then be a $50 reinstatement fee AND the parents will have to take the new applications downtown themselves. Could we lose Scouts over this? Maybe, but I don't think so. And if we have so little support from the parents that they won't send a check with their son, or show up at a troop meeting with a credit card, I'd question if they're going to be around long anyway.

The Eagles I hold in high regard are those who live the Oath and Law, who stay with the program and give back to it, who show real concern and compassion for their fellow Scouts and those in their patrol and troop. These are the guys who take on extra responsibility and thrive on it, who do more than the minimum, and put forth sincere effort to do their best. While that is often independent of the parent's involvement, apples tend to fall near apple trees.

I've read the amendments and a little bit of the explanations. It will never happen. These amendments would result in massive reductions in the size and scope of the federal government. Too many people lined up at trough to let that happen.