Twocubdad

So based on that clause, it would be acceptable for the troop or team committee to nominate a Cub Scouter from their brother unit, or for that matter any other registered adult who otherwise meets the membership requirements, correct? Clearly, the intent of that sentence is to set the 50:1 ratio and the authority of the unit committee to make the recommendation. Limiting adult nominations to registered Boy Scout or Venturer leaders is an inference at best.

Question: did this threat occur in front of the boys? If so, that's a whole different situation. Not exactly a Youth Protection issue, but something you may want to discuss with your Scout Executive.

That's the core of what the debate has been, but no one has cited a policy. Do you have a reference?

A Cub Scouter interested and eligible for OA membership would be rare, but not impossible. Help me out on the current OA requirements -- 15 nights camping, including one long-term camp, right? Counting back, over the past two years I've camped with the Cubs 17 nights total, including a long-term Webelos resident camp. So it is possible. I can envision nominating our Pack's Outing Chairman who is involved in running both our Pack campouts and district-level Cub Scout events. I agree with who ever said that OA membership is not about individual recognition, but I would say that service is of equal importance to camping promotion. It is also primarily an organization for the BOYS, not adults. Consequently, I think our local nominating committee is right to consider adult memberships in light of what skills the adult can bring to the organization.

Dancinfox and kwc, it sounds like your districts have set up district-wide Troop-Webelos campouts, which if not technically within the letter of the policy, sure meets its spirit. Sounds like fun and a great recruitment/retention tool. The important thing is to teach the Webelos the skills, not ask them to compete in activities they've not yet learned. Not familiar with "Webelos Woods," Eagledad, but we do have an annual, district wide "Webeloree" campout.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Thanks for the cite, EagleWB. So based on your understanding, are Cub leaders eligible? It's largely an academic question as I doubt many Cub leaders are looking for added responsibilities away from their own unit/boys. Other than the guy with the dual registration who just joined, I don't know of anyone else in my unit who would have an interest. My info came from a very good source, so maybe that's just local custom. My understanding is there is a national ratio of adults to youth candidates, so maybe out lodge is applying a similar ratio to the units to keep things fair. I also understand that the lodge selection committee is fairly utilitarian, making their nominations on the adult's special skills, training, and/or abilities which the lodge needs.

We've got a couple Arrowmen in the Pack, myself included. All but one were in OA as youth, and he was just inducted largely in his dual role as an ASM with the troop. Like BornInThe60s, I'm not active. When I joined the local chapter, I made a point to tell them, "I'll see you in a couple years." Question: the number of adult OA members from a particular unit is based on the total number of registered adults. I understand that the registered adults from our Pack counts toward the totals of our brother troop. How does that work? How do we go about nominating a Pack leader for membership? We've got a heck of a lot more registered adults in the Pack than they do in the Troop.

No, no, Dave, I didn't intend to attribute that to you. My point was that BSA (not necessarily even the SE, but someone) has a responsibility to keep a parent abreast of their investigation and outcomes. That's different from a leader reporting a suspected abuse situation, who shouldn't expect to hear back. All I was saying is if it's my child, "we've handled it" is an adequate response.

It's late and I don't have the book in front of me, but aren't Cubs, including Webelos, prohibited from camping at district events, i.e. camporees? I believe the logic is that a Camporee is an event planned around Scout-level activites which may not be appropriate for younger boys. Webelos-Troop campouts are supposed to be planned with age-appropriate activities for the Webelos. Cubs and Webelos may attend Camporees as spectators. We're headed for camp first thing tomorrow, hopefully someone else will provide the proper citation.

Precisely, Bob.

I think we're missing a critical element here. This isn't a two-year-old assault. The Scoutmaster grabbed and pulled the boy out of the meeting Wednesday night. Mgaesser, you need to tell the SE, you have an URGENT youth protection issue. He or his designee should call ASAP, even if he's out of town. When you talk you can set a meeting for the first of the week. I would ask him if you should bring your attorney with you. Whether you do or not (it's up to you) just rattling that saber will let him know how serious this issue is to you. In addition to the current incident, you need a explaination of what happened after you reported the Jamboree incident. How in the world did this guy have the opportunity to assault your son twice? At the end of your meeting, ask him when he will report back to you on the actions taken. I would tell him that if I don't hear from him by that date, the following day I will file criminal charges against the Scoutmaster. And you better bet I would dang-well do it, too! This is serious, stuff. This guy has no business being around children, much less wearing a Scout uniform. He should have gotten the boot two years ago. DS, I hear what you are saying about confidentially and not to expect to hear of any action taken by the SE. That's the proper YP procedure if Mgaesser were a scout leader reporting suspected abuse to the SE. But that's not the situation here. In this case, BSA owes a parent MUCH more of an explaination. Even if the only response from the SE is that the case has been turned over to DSS or the police. If it's my child, "We've handled it internally but we can't discuss it," ain't going to cut it. We can discuss it now or we can discuss it with the police -- and again during the civil trial. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

I'm trying to decide if Chuck E. Cheese in a Scout uniform is a good thing....

Two deep leadership is required in all these situations. The only "exception" is that a lone leader may meet with boys if they are in plain view of other adults. For example, if a den or PLC meeting is taking place in the corner of a larger room clearly visible to other adults, a single adult is okay. In this case two deep leadership is maintained by the other adults across the room. Two deep leadership isn't a place to look for wiggle room. Anyone looking for loopholes is doing you and the boys a disservice.

Scout Shop/Scout catalog has probably 30 different stock patrol emblems. Remember you can embellish the patrol names. The arrow emblem can be for the "Flaming Silver Arrow" patrol. They also have a blank emblem so you can make your own. I'm not familiar with the Cub Scout Advanture program. Can you be more specific? Could it go by another name?

Hi, Eagle, welcome to the campfire. I hope you brought your own chair. Feel free to move if the smoke gets in your eyes. We chewed the zip-off pants awhile back. You may want to dig through the archives and find that thread. If I remember correctly, national has considered them but rejected the idea because many people find a zipper around their knees uncomfortable and -- especially with little kids -- the leg parts always get lost. My boys have several pairs of convertable pants and are ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN from taking them apart. Generally, I think you will find a lot of support on the board for a more technical outdoor pant, either like a military BDU or some of the mountain pants made by various outfitters.

Based on the troops I've seen, the units who wear the uniform correctly and with pride, still wear the neckerchief. Several in our area have really sharp, custom embroidered neckerchiefs which I'm sure cost a pretty penny. On the other hand, many of the troops who have opted out of the neckerchiefs are the same ones who have also opted out of official pants, correct insignia placement, tucking shirts into the pants and wearing the cap on straight. (Maybe that's an unfair generalization, but just my observation.) I personally, I like wearing a neckerchief. I have a leader neckerchief for each level of Cub Scouts and wear it to the appropriate meetings. (I usually wear a bolo to pack meetings, simply because that's the custom of most of our other leaders.) Back in my day (uh, oh, here we go) my old troop had an official troop neckerchief, but you ditched it as soon as you "earned" another -- Jamboree, Philmont, NESA, OA activities -- your neckerchief was another way to show off where you had been and what you had done. All the guys wore one, even though no two were alike. All that said, I can see where many Scouts no longer want to wear them. Among men generally, neckties are going the way of the fedora. Maybe it's time for national to come out with another neckwear option for formal occasions. Or here's a wild (maybe goofy) idea: what if they created a "fake" neckerchief with the fold or roll sewn in place and a stiffener in the back so it doesn't require constant ironing to look decent. They could also improve the slide to be more like a tie clip, so it will stay in place. It may be a good idea for formal occasions. Of course it may be a dodo, too, like the knee socks with the built-in velcro garters. Anyone else have a pair of those? Fotoscout -- here's a trick I teach my cubs to keep the slides in place. Take a rubberband (natural rubber color works best), double it several times and fasten the neckerchief with it, at the same spot you wear the slide. Put the slide on, covering the rubber band. Then -- and here's the secret -- pull one loop of the rubberband over the face of the slide to hold it in place. It's hardly visable and anyone who is close enough to notice the rubberband, is violating a couple of Youth Protection rules, anyway. Works like a charm.

dedlaast -- welcome to the campfire. It's always good to have a new Cubber on board. Sometimes I feel a bit out numbered. You are staring at the best resource for new material, the Internet. Last fall I tasked one of my leaders with coming up with 20 new skits and songs for a district Cub campfire. He came up with some really great stuff, using the links here and at Cubmaster.com. I won't list them all here, just go to the NetCompass side of Scouter.com But the best new skit I've seen in years is the Bandana skit, which I first saw at National Camp School for Cub Day Camp. This may be old hat to some of you, but it's new in this part of the world and had everyone -- kids and parents -- on the floor. I've always seen it performed by adults (because the only thing kids like better than another kid making a fool of himself is an adult doing it), but it could easily be done by the scouts. Start with four or five guys, one is the narrator the others the demonstrators. The narrator starts off by explaining that they are going to do a demonstration on the uses of the scout neckerchief or bandana. (All the demonstrators hold up their bandanas). The narrator goes into great detail on how the Lord Baden-Powell thought the bandana was the most important part of the scout uniform -- the more pompous the better. Explain that there are many different uses of the bandana, but first you have to learn to fold the bandana. (All the demonstrators show how to fold their bandana). The narrator then explains all the different uses of a bandana, which the others demonstrate: you can use it as a bandage and wrap it around your arm, if it's hot out you can wear it like a hat, you can use it for a towel and wipe your brow, at dinner you can spread it on your shirt and use it for a napkin, of course after dinner you can wipe your mouth with it. And after a shower, you can make a point out of one corner and dry your ears with it. All this and it can easily be folded and tucked in a pocket. The punch line is while most of the demonstrators are showing how to use a bandana, one guy, the biggest clown in the group, is somewhat confused and is doing all the demonstrations using a BANANA. Think about it, it's a riot! The messier the better. The highlight is the guy grinding the now-smushed banana into his ear. Bring a wet towel -- banana dries like epoxy. And I would not recommend this in a Class A uniform.

Ed; My old Troop suffered the same tragedy several years after I had graduated and moved on. It is a terrible loss. Please let everyone in you unit know that the entire Scout family shares your grief and has you all in their thoughts and prayers.

Dear Dr BS: Such an appropriate name! From time stamps on all the messages you posted, it appears you wasted about an hour tacking all those messages on the various threads. While it may have seemed like a good idea at the time, please consider the time wasted by all the folks who track the various threads. Most of these folks are adult leaders who are either trying to improve their own units or who are trying to help others. You may also want to consider the wasted system resources from Scouter.com A Scout is Courteous A Scout is Thrifty Hmmmmm... I can appreciate that you are very proud of your crew and it's web site. Frequently, units use this board to announce new web sites, or even to get help setting one up. They usually get a lot of support from the members. Right now, you've only annoyed a lot of people.

Well said, Ed. Whether it's 1% or 100%, it's the journey not the destination.

The lack of OA elections seems to be a symptom, not the disease. You troop's real problem is the lack of an outdoors program and that it is run by a patriarchy, not the PLC. The path of least resistance may be to work through your son and his patrol. Get them camping as a patrol. After they go out a time or two, the other patrols will want to follow suit. The other, more direct route would be to have a conversation with the SM that you think the troop needs to camp more and, considering the situation with his sons, you are willing to headup the campouts if he is unable to. He may resist the idea, because he doesn't want his own sons to be left out. But nothing says you have to tackle K9 your first trip out. Start off with something easy and local where his boys can day trip if they need to. Either way, once you get a campout or two under your belt, the natural progression will be for the boys to decide where they want to camp next and make all the plan. From that planning, you have the beginnings of a PLC. I realize this is somewhat of a passive-aggressive approach, but creating a conflict the SM and his family will likely create more problems than it solves. This deals only with the camping issue. Ultimately you want to try and get the troop back to true Scouting methods with an operating PLC, properly functioning committee, trained leaders, etc. (P.S. -- just saw your other thread about rehabbing the troop generally. That's the direction you need to take.)(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Easy there, big fellow, you're going to start something. Reminds me of the yankee who asked his southern friend, "When are youse guys going to quit fighting the Civil War?" "I don't know," the Southerner said, "Maybe when y'all yankees quit shooting at us."

Welcome, Scott. Sometimes this campfire puts out more smoke than heat or light, but we're glad to have you. Hope you brought you own chair. Question for you: How do you judge the quality of an Eagle Scout? Are quantity and quality related?

Laura! You wound me to the core! OUR Cub Scout pack takes summers off the same way Saltheart's troop takes summers off. True, no den or pack meetings, but we have have at least one pack overnighter, two outings (usually a minor-league ball game, or something similiar), a pack pool party, four days each of Webelos and Cub day camp and four days and three nights at Webelos resident camp. Considering that "summer" isn't as long as it used to be, on average we spend much more time at Scout activities in the summer than we do during the school year.

Sorry guys, but for some reason I just don't seem to be making my point clear. My concern is not the 15% vigorish the council takes off the top of the receipts, but that they are pressing us to cut expenses from the remaining budget. The goal is for us to leave more of a surplus at the end of camp, which, by policy, gets absorbed into the council's general operations. Every dime in the camp's budget comes from the fees paid by Cub families for day camp. I believe there is -- or should be -- an expectation that those funds will be used for day camp, less reasonable administrative overhead. I understand the need for everyone to pitch in and help cut costs during a financial crunch. But it's not as if we are receiving a $10,000 allocation from the council and they need to cut us to $8,000. Day camp is a self-supporting, self-funded activity. I don't believe it should be turned into a profit center for the council. If camp making a big profit, we either need to boost our program or cut our fees. I also understand, Bob, the need for every activity to come in under budget and try to make a small profit. There is no such thing as breaking even -- you're either making money or losing it. The way most Scout events are set up, going over budget just isn't an option. Given that, it's perfectly acceptable that what ever small profit is seen by an event goes to the council. What else would we do with the money? But it's not right to intentionally try to cut program costs from a self-supporting activity with the knowledge and intent that those savings can be diverted to other areas. To me, that smacks of diversion of funds -- maybe not from a legal or accounting standpoint, but certainly from a moral one. To clear up a couple other points: as I said before, I'm okay with the 15% administrative charge going to council. But with a camp budget of over $20,000, we sure don't get $2,000 in adminstrative support back. I know that on the other end, a half-day training session bringing in $350 probably uses way more that its share of support time. They have to average out somewhere. Day camp just seems to be getting hosed in the process. A sliding scale may be more fair. And regarding DS's comments on how we handle collecting the money. I hear what you are saying, but I think we've got our bases covered. Campers are registered by pack, not individually, so we are only collecting one check per pack. It's not like we have someone running around with $20-large in tens and twenties in their trunk. I was writing in reference to Bob's comment about the council office handling all the registrations. My point was that from the council's view, they get one deposit, not 300 campers coming throught he door which they have to register individually.