Twocubdad

This is primarily for DSteele and relates to a conversation we had in the chat room. Since there were several folks in the room at the time, I'm posting it here for everyone instead of PM-ing it. From our local weekly paper: According to a story in the Philadelphia Daily news, 20-year-old student Jake Browne decided to exercise his First Amendment right to free speech on July 5. The location? A park bench behind Independence Hall. His instrument of protest? A hand lettered sign saying "Free Independence Hall!!" "Every day, I look at the metal bike racks around Independence Hall and think, 'That's so ugly,'" Browne said. "Even with red-white-and-blue bunting it looks like a prison." His demonstration involved leaning the sign against a park bench while he quitely ate his lunch. Shortly after beginning this seditious rebellion, a park ranger approached and, according to Browne, told him he could not protest there because it was federal property and (I'm not making this up) a "First-Amendment-free zone." Protesters could exercise free speech in a designated First Amendment Zone outside the Visitor's Center, two blocks away. At first, Brown was shocked then awed by the ranger. He said he'd turn his sign around while he ate his lunch. The ranger warned him not to turn the sign back around or he'd be arrested. The double exclaimation marks on his sign no doubt identified Browne as a potential terrorist or enemy combatant. A few minutes later, about a dozen rangers lined the metal fence near his bench, presumably on heightened Code Orange alert, watching until Browne finished his lunch and left. Chalk up another W in the Terrorist Treats Averted column.

I read the decision and, honestly, couldn't follow the logic. It seemed to me that all the reasoning was in support of the BSA position, but somehow they found for the state. I suppose the bottom line is that while the court sounded like they agreed with BSA's legal position, the BSA lawyers just didn't offer enough evidence to meet their burden of proof, so by default the defendants won.

Or depending on your particular set of cultural icons, how about Meat Loaf: "So what's it going to be, boy, YES....OR....NO?"

Interesting, Eisley, that you read it and were bothered that they were trying to create a local option. I read the same thing and was bothered that they were being dishonest about the policy. Like the three blind men feeling different parts of an elephant.... Looking at the big picture, if BSA is going to make the stand they have (whether you agree with it or not) then we are going to have to accept that these are the kinds of scrapes we are going to have to deal with for a long time.

My favorite part of the story is when the old advancement chairman reads the parent's the riot act. Good for him!

The difference is that the State of Connecticut is not a private organization. They should be required to provide equal access to all organizations -- or none at all. If we were talking about a privately owned company or organization, then they could include whoever they like on their list. Frankly Merlyn, I'm surprised you're not on the other side of this issue. Access to the state's list of charities is no different than a school district allowing private organizations use of public school facilities. If a school district allows private organizations to use its facilities, it must allow all private groups the same access. If the Fellowship of Christian Athletes meets at the school, the Fellowship of Wiccan Athletes gets the same access. On another point, does it bother anyone else that the local BSA council was willing to sign the state's non-discrimination agreement in order to get the money?

Sometimes folks (parents) will surprize you and behave themselves, dispite what we think of them. It's a shame, but we've become so accustomed to folks flying off the handle and act irrationally, we come to expect the worst of everyone. Sounds like you handled it well and obtained a good result.

At the risk of being labeled a "by the booker" I'll point out that Cub Scout packs are perfectly free to create "Class B" hats, t-shirts and/or boxer shorts if they like. They just aren't in full uniform when they wear them. (I'm kidding about the boxers -- please don't write that there are no official Scout boxers.) I'm no fan of the Cub Scout hats, which you know if you've been following this thread. I think they are cheaply made given the price. But the uniform is the uniform. Pack t-shirts serve the function of providing the boys an inexpensive shirt to wear during sports or activities during which they may ruin their uniform shirt. Hats, in my judgement (and that of my Pack committee)don't serve that same function. We decided against pack hats because it would just be one more thing to buy for no real purpose.

I didn't really have an opinion on the FOG/Zorn/Yaworski controversy until Mr. Guy jumped Dan over his grammar instead of responding to the issues. Very Yaworski-esque. That tipped it for me. But I don't know that identities really matter, as most of us go by an Internet handle anyway. Believe it or not, Twocubdad is not my real name. Regardless, Mr. Guy, when you stick to Scouting, you bring some good points to the table, although I don't always agree with them. I can't say I always agree with anyone posting here. You do, however, go out of your way to antagonize and/or inflame folks. Not only is it unnecessary, but generally does little to advance your point of view or the conversation generally.

Thank you. We are responsible for grace at one meal at Webelos camp and that's a good, easy one for the Scouts to learn and remember. Plus they get to learn a new word: raiment.

Can any of you who have been to Philmont since I have (which means any time since the Nixon administration) please help me remember the Philmont Grace? It was something like "For food, for grace, for something, something, something, we thank you O Lord. Amen." Thanks

And just where the heck is the SE? Why are you the one to have this conversation. I agree with everything Rooster and NLD have written, but they are only scratching the surface of all the potential pitfalls. Nothing personal Ox, but this needs to be handled by high level council professionals and volunteers who have training or experience or at minimum are well versed by the Council attorney. This is NOT in the job description for a COPE director. I am astounded that you would be allowed to meet with the individual even if you asked to. Maybe you sit quietly while the SE explains things to the guy, but NO WAY should you be delivering this message alone. I don't know the proper policy or procedure for this type of situation, but I can tell you this ain't it. Personally, I wouldn't touch it.

I, too, have learned a lot from BW over the year or so I've been on the boards. I generally agree with 90% of what he says but also enjoy a good debate over the remaining 10%. If he is truly signing off the boards, his input and perspective will be missed. But people, PULLLEEEESSS! This thread is getting awfully deep. Let's try to maintain a little dignity and self respect!

I haven't heard the staff jokes you're looking for, but here's a great skit I heard at camp school that has people rolling on the floor. I may have posted it before, but it's worth repeating. The whole camp staff lines up across the stage, each with a Scout neckerchief. The announcer is out front and says that instead of doing a skit, the staff wants to take the time to teach a little Scout history and talk about the importance of the scout bandana. "Lord Baden-Powell always said the bandana is the most important part of the Scout uniform because of all the useful things you can do with it. The easiest use for a bandana is as a signaing device." (All the staff take their bandanas off and waves them over their heads) "For many other uses, you have to know how to fold a bandana." (All the staff demonstrate how to fold a bandana into a bandage). "Once it's folded, you can use your bandana as a bandage, if, for example you had cut your arm, you can wrap it around your wrist." (Staff all wrap bandana around their wrist.) "At dinner, you can use it as a napkin" (Staff tuck their bandanas inside their collar and spread them on their shirts.) "After dinner, you can, of course, use it to wipe your face." (Staff demonstrates). "One of the obvious uses for a bandana is as a hankerchief." (Staff all pretend to blow their noses.) "At bath time, you can use your bandana for a wash cloth." (Staff pretends to wash, especially their armpits.) "And because A Scout is Clean, it's important that you be sure to wash your ears." (Staff twists their bandana into a point and clean their ears.) "And that, gentlemen, is but a few uses of the Scout bandana! Thank you." The punch line, and what is happening behind the back of the announcer, is that one staffer -- with a confused look on his face -- is going through all these demonstrations using a BANANA. The mushier the better. Pick a real ham to demonstrate the banana, someone who can really play up the confused looks. He needs to smear banana every where. When he blows his nose, have him make a real loud raspberry noise and blast chunks of banana every where. Make a real mess of it. One of the fun parts of this skit is not letting the rest of the staff in on the joke. We did that with the den leaders at day camp and the two guys either side of the banana guy just about died. They trid to play it straight, but the more they tried not to laugh the worse they got. We finished the skit with a couple guys on their knees crying laughing. It works as a skit for the Scouts, too, since it fits for the announcer to read the script, as if he's giving a lecture. And there's always one cut-up in every den/patrol who wants to be the banana guy.

In my infrequently humble opinion, the preparation Webelos need to do for Boy Scout camping has less to do with traditional camping skills, rather it is largely between their ears. That's where Webelos Resident Camp comes in. I don't know how WRC's are run elsewhere, but ours is somewhat of a hybrid between a week at Boy Scout camp and Cub day camp. The programming is run much the same as a day camp and the boys are kept hoppin' from 7 in the morning until after 10 at night -- no time to get homesick. In terms of living with your patrol, being on an extended campout, not having your parent with you (that's the big one), lt looks, feels and smells much more like Boy Scout camp. Just within my den, I can see a big difference in how my Webelos view moving into Boy Scouting. Those who went to WRC last year seem to be looking forward to Scouting much more than those who did not attend. They've learned that Scout camp is a lot of fun and that they can be in the woods for an extended time without mom or dad. WRC has been identified as a big factor in avoiding the high drop out rate between Webelos and the first year of Boy Scouts. Anyone with Webelos should really encourage their boys to go to resident camp.

I'm not really a knife guy so I can't comment on quality and value, but I gave both my boys the official Cub Scout knife, mostly because they are just like the one I had when I was a Cub. They seem to be a good size for little hands, but just like my old knife, the can opener and leather punch are way too tight to open themselves.

I think we've chewed that steak before, kwc. If the district or council camporee is designed to be a Webelos/Scout event -- like the one you've described before -- I don't see any problem, even if it technically voilates the letter of the law. In fact on the other thread, I said your event sounded like a great recruiting tool for the district. The key is that there are age and skill-level activities planned for the Webelos, not that there is more thatn one Pack/Troop pair in attendance. But what I think the rules are trying to avoid is for a Webelos den to tag along with a troop to a regular Boy Scout camporee where no plans have been made to accommodate the Webelos. Eagle Foot's event sound more like that than it does your situation. With Cub Scoutings emphasis on camping these days, after the boys have family-camped for two or three years as Cub Scouts, there is a huge temptation to push the Webelos into more Boy Scout-style camping. In my own pack, the den leader of the other Webelos den (who is also an ASM in the troop) really wants to make sure the Webelos can hang with the Scouts on campouts after they cross over. Essentially, he wants the Webelos to join the troop with the camping skills of a First Class Scout. While that's a nice idea, it's not part of the Webelos program and it robs the boys of the primary learning experience as first-year Scouts. While he looks at the new Scouts and says they aren't ready to go camping, I tend to think the troop is taking too much of a sink-or-swim approach to teaching camping skills. If a troop is using the new Scout patrol system, there should a safety net for the new boys as they ramp up on their camping skills.

I don't know that there is an official explaination, I think "under supervision" is the key phrase. It is difficult to supervise someone from a mile across camp. If the adults are dropping the Webelos with the Boy Scouts and then spending the weekend in the staff lodge, that's not within the spirit of the regulation. That's not to say mom or dad has to shadow the boy's every move. There's nothing wrong with a parent hanging back on a particular activity if the Scouts are otherwise adequately supervised. Webelos don't have the camping skills to camp as their own patrol with the parents at some distance away. Fire building, wood tools, cooking, ect., are all skills they will learn next year. Parents and trained leaders need to be camping among the boys to supervise and help with these activites. Many of my Scouts, my own son included, like to camp in a tent with their buddies instead of with mom or dad. That's fine, but the parents still need to be in earshot. But in addition to that, I don't believe the campout you describe is appropriate for Webelos. First, Webelos are not permitted on district or council Boy Scout camporees. A Webelos/Scout campout needs to be one pack, one troop with activities planned for the skill level of the Webelos. Secondly, the style of camping and activities on this Camporee sound to me like they are above the skill level of Webelos.

My camp staff gave it to me at the end of day camp. I'm looking forward to reading it on the beach later this summer.

DS, do you have a product number for that?

Both of the above are good advice. Fourteen is way too big. Six to eight is the official recommendation, but with six boys, if you drop a few it's hard to keep critical mass. With 10, if a few boys bring friends, you're too big again. If you need an official reference, look at pages 7-2 and 10-8 in the Leader Book. I like Sctmom's idea of easing into the two dens by having common parts of the meetings then splitting up. Some whole packs meet that way. My Webelos den doesn't really meet that way, but we frequently (5-6 times during the year) have a joint meeting with the other Webelos den for a special program or outing.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

To paraphrase the President, "I have one word for you: Pinewood Derby." I ran a table at our open house last year and carted a ton of junk. All the boys were interested in were the cars. Take a new kit to show them what thay start with, then show them some of the finished cars. The one other thing I found helpful was a full set of handbooks so that depending on age, I could show the boys some of the other things they would be doing.

Wear the hat. With the band, strap and pin, you've spent close to $150 bucks on it. Wear the hat.

The way our day camp works (and to my knowledge most other camps) we don't really have Scouts assigned to work with the boys as they do at private camps. Our den leaders, the people who you would most likely tip, are parent volunteers and I don't think tipping would be appropriate. Giving a $15 tip to the $400-per-hour attorney who took the week off work to be with the kids just doesn't seem right. On the other hand, if there is a Scout who particularlly worked with your son, a small gesture, like a $5 gift card to Blockbuster would not be inappropriate. To my mind, that's simply doing something nice for someone who has done something nice for you or your son. There are plenty of nice things you can do for the adult volunteers, too. A thank you note comes to mind. A thank you note attached to a dozen Krispy Kremes works too. Or when you come to pick your kid up the last day of camp, plan to stay a couple hours and help break down camp.

Actually Bob, I was hoping you would give us the precise citation.