blw2

Stosh, as always some good suggestions... but you're taking the canned question too literally. Eagledad covered the canned question concern well i think. It's about getting the ball rolling! Oh, I'll bet some of your ideal boards of review would end up being over almost before they start! Great response Barry! That point about the quality check points to me #3.... so dropping that isn't really an option IMO. Anyway, almost everything else in all the posts so far describe my vision of how our could be better, except maybe the sitting the scout in the middle of a circle. Man, that would make me feel like I'm under the heat lamp!

and also great advice qwazse! I think if we would have done what you suggest fully, most of our boys wouldn't have earned most of the ranks they would have only completed what was done in the den mtgs But they would have been perfectly ok with that.

Hi, and welcome! I started participating here when my son was Tiger and I was an Assistant DL, and found this sight a great resource for brainstorming, venting, and so on. The tempo and feel of the conversations change from time to time depending on participants and topics so keep coming back for different thoughts and topics. It's a different program now, & I only looked at some overview training in preparation when I was Cubmaster, but haven't actually worked with it, so I can't give thoughts on program specifics. But I will say that you are not alone! I tried almost everything, and had no luck. Some parents are into it, and others are not. Some packs have great energy, other do not. One thing I eventually learned about the requirements, is that they take the fun out of it for the scouts for example At first my son would bring his book to me eager to work on it, but that excitement faded. I found that my being aware of the requirements helped me to steer my son into completing things without his even knowing it. For example, there was a requirement at some point (probably not Tiger year), to do some car repair, check the oil or some such thing. Well one saturday morning when I was heading out to replace a light bulb, I called him out to help. He was interested, we covered the requirement + a few more things.... and then I said, go get your book...) I honestly think this is the best way to do almost EVERYTHING in cubs Anyway, In the end, I pretty much gave up on that quest. The DL and I tried to focus on Fun first, and requirements mostly second. I decided that tracking the stuff really just wasn't important I noticed that the scouts didn't care about the bling.... they just wanted to have fun with their friends. and something that I think would have helped, but I could never get the DL to do, was more shared leadership at the tiger level. The old program anyway, was based on a tiger/parent team doing the meetings, rotating through... so that you as DL would assign the next meeting to Bill and his mom, the meeting after that to little Joe and his dad, and so on. Let them pick the topic or you assign it. The thing is, it forces involvement and gets them going. Parental involvement changed in later ranks, but it's a good way to start out. So, don't try to do everything yourself Get an Assistant DL if you don't have one and lean on the parents and scouts in a shared leadership role

Exactly what I was thinking probably should be encouraged.... i agree that adults don't need to be involved so much.... ....but IMO, we do need to make them aware that consensus is a real possibility, and can be a good thing...and that living the golden rule sometimes means asking the other person what they want. It is "boy lead, not boy defined", after all! (quoting Clark Green @ scoutmastercg.com) Cyber Duck http://www.patchtown.com/cyberduckpatrolpatch684.aspx wouldn't have been my pick either, but I don't think it's all that horrible I pointed out to him that it could have been a whole lot worse I also suggested to him that maybe the name can be changed down the road, I have no idea about troop rules on that, but it seems like it should be possible.... and we discussed that it's a lesson to be more assertive sometimes. I remember it being the same way... just a small number of choices. I wasn't even involved since when i joined I joined into an existing patrol... I can't even remember what it was. And I think that points to the minimal enthusiasm you mention... which my only fear in this is that it could be a sour seed that affects my son's patrol spirit oh, and I can't criticize the ASM on how he inserted himself or not. i wasn't there and I don't know what he did. It might have been his ipad or computer they were using and he was only there protecting his hardware. In my thinking, they shouldn't be encouraged to change the name every month, because that could also lead to minimal enthusiasm for it. ... but it seems the better scenario might be that these original patrol members have consensus on the name, they are the plank owners of the patrol after all... so they would likely want to keep the name for the duration.... except maybe if years down the road the patrol loses scouts and absorbs other new ones so that the patrol is no longer the same group... then it makes sense to change the name so that the new scouts feel connected to it too. But I didn't really start this thread to insert myself into my son's situation it was more about patrol names in general as in the "Hey Chris" patrol and the "Chair" patrol Any other funny or bad names you have seen ?

SMF? layer cake stew?

So my son's patrol recently met full strength. He and one other joined the troop, and several other scouts came from a different pack later... and this was the 1st meeting since. I wasn't in the meeting. I found out the next day that the patrol flag and patches were on order, and this was a surprise since I figured he would have told me about it...he and I had talked several times about names and it was something he cared about Long story, but turns out as a group they looked online at some choices. One of the scouts, who i know well (he comes off a little bit bullyish sometimes for pushing his agenda through without consideration for his friends), found one he liked... and was strongly yelling to the rest...pick this one pick this one... In the end 2 of the scouts didn't like it, in fact my son really strongly hates it. The other 4 voted for it. In answer to their rejections, they were told.."Too late, majority rules!". So there was an ASM involved in the conversation, and somehow it was decided ok then, well I guess that's the one... I'm guessing the 4 who liked it were being loud, and the two that didn't were not and the ASM mistook the volume for unanimity. I have to admit I saw this coming a long time ago, I know that boy. Anyway....So on behalf of my son I was a little bit ticked off that he's going to have to wear something on his uniform he dislikes - a bit ticked at the one strong willed scout .....and irritated at the ASM for not being more mediatory. I'm also very disappointed in my son, that he was not more assertive in pushing for a consensus.... but I guess that's a hard thing to wrap your head around at 10... It just seems like a bad start to forming good patrol spirit. I'm not about to go interjecting myself in it as a helicopter parent... But I just thought this story might lead to a discussion about patrol names, who picks them, what happens when they are really bad.... what are some good names you've seen, and bad ones?...and so on

As some of you know, i'm a fairly new reformed Cub Scouter... haven't been in the troop committee all that long. I was recently blindsided into rounding out a BOR, they needed a 3rd committee member, and I was handy. I asked a few questions, but let the others do most of the asking... mainly because they were shooting them out quick and beat me to several that i was thinking Anyway, my gut-feel evaluation of the experience: It was a decent introductory experience for the scout in preparation for future job interviews and the like... just getting used to being in the spotlight Some of it seemed almost more like a drill. the scout was asked to stand front, repeat the oath, law, etc... and was kept standing the whole time most questions lacked much depth for either side. We weren't asking the scout things to make him think or that would result in his learning or gaining something good..... and for the committee, really doing an evaluation of the health of the program. My ideas: I felt like it could have been perhaps a bit more conversational in a way, ask the scout to sit, etc... and really try to find out if the scout has any good ideas for change, or needs and really find out if the scout knows his stuff... that the program is succeeding and not pencil whipping. I think doing #1, will fairly easily lead to #2 But #3 is tricky. The BOR isn't a test. The scout has already earned rank, so it shouldn't feel like a test in my thinking.. So my questions What are some good canned questions to hold in my back pocket? How do your BOR differ in a positive way?

This is more along the lines of what I thought our U of Scouting was going to be. I guess it is a distant cousin of the idea, but it just seems to miss the mark, especially on the youth side

Clark Green did a podcast a while back in response to a question I had asked. He didn't directly answer my question, but addressed the problem/issue very well. He spoke about Cooperative Volunteering (pretty sure that was the title of the podcast) I've gotta say, I was really repeating that mantra in my head when the Committee Chair asked me to take treasurer. and the other voice in my head was screaming to do exactly what you are suggesting @@Stosh! I enjoy scouting and doing scout type 'stuff', I enjoy the connection it brings with my son, I enjoy seeing the scouts have fun while progressing along a good path.... and so I naturally wanted to help the troop in some way.... thinking that meant signing on as a general committee member and help in little ways here and there...and transition pretty soon to ASM... But anyway, I wanted to help and so the Cooperative Volunteer won the battle. Things I don't like about treasurer include that it's fairly far removed from the outdoors and also it's the kind of thing that once I get going with it, it's not so easy to find a replacement, and they are certainly not likely to look to me to fill other needs when they arise... such as an ASM vacancy The upshot is I can participate in BOR's and this troop doesn't discourage committee members from coming along on camp outs.... which i'm actually taking it to be part of my responsibility in fulfilling the committee's role to evaluate and advise on the program.

good one Stosh!

yeah, me too. Just the other night I was handed a bunch of stuff that really should be going to the troop secretary I think, not the treasurer... but it's the same old guilt that I put on myself.... well, the CC doesn't have a secretary and NEEDS the help I was grasping for some idea of how to tell her that I would take this file, but not those... & somehow just couldn't come up with a way I felt was nice enough. So I made it really clear that I'll hang on to them for now, but we really need to hire a secretary and an outdoor activities chair pronto.

sorry i haven't read all the posts here, I'been absent with work getting in the way lately. read the first several posts but there are some long ones Anyway, I was thinking along the lines of Eagle94-A1 and others..... that having them teach would be a great way out. and Krampus that as trainer I think an evaluation would be in order. If you know them well, you could prob do it without them ever even knowing. If you don't, a conversation over a cup of coffee would tell you if they have the requisite knowledge. i don't mean pencil whipping, but legitimate knowledge/qualifications in which case you could sign them off as if having taken the course... like a college class test out. Is there a rule against doing that? But more to the original question, i would say that it should depend on which training checkoff it is that they are missing.... and why. YPT, I hate the redundancy of doing it again and again, but there really is no excuse for not doing it ditto for all the other online stuff....I would say that within a month they should be done (really a week or so, but I'll be generous) The other stuff... well it depends. I think I was 2 years in before they offered BALLOO around here (which by the way was a joke, since most of the students could have just as well been a teacher) I have been considering taking IOLS. Started around last summer/fall or so looking, to this day they still have not offered one on a weekend that i didn't have a personal or pack conflict

I more or less agree with calico penn, except to say that it seems to me The committee is sort of in charge of the CM and leaders, by way of hiring and firing.... and is responsible to review what the leaders on the program side are doing, advise and suggest, etc...

not if the other patrols are already pretty big. I can see a typical troop of several existing patrols absorbing a 1 or 2 new scouts scattered into several patrols, but not a whole den... many of which might want to stick with their friends anyway.

well he pretty much nailed it! for me, it was trying to do CM without an assistant CM... while also taking on many of the things that should be done by the CO rep (ours was AWOL) , the CC (almost AWOL), and other general parents (would sit on their hands)... oh, and all the while acting as a part time assistant DL because nobody else would do much their either. and as far as scout burnout, I watched the boys running through the same program with only minor twists from year to year.... and way to much sitting and talking! would have been a lot more fun (for me) without the adult drama, AND if I would have just said NO a whole lot more.

I've only recently left the pack, having served since about half way through my son't tiger year.... so roughly 4 years in Burnout is real... for parents and scouts. I even saw non-scouter parents burn out with it... the constant bringing of the scout to mtgs and events. I think a lot very likely has to do with the unit, standing traditions, the current flock of parents and how much they participate, how much fun the den/pack leaders are... lots of local variables. In our case, we had a very small number of us wearing a lot of hats. and even many of the positive attitude den leaders only had so much time and energy to give Honestly, I think a great tradition for a unit would be to establish rotating leadership roles such as den leaders only serve 1 or maybe 2 years. Lean on Tiger and Wolf parents for small odd jobs, bringing snacks etc.. at first, then working up to chairing trips or events. Assistant Cubmaster could come from a wolf den parent. They have been with the pack a while now so they know the drill. in preparation to take Cubmaster on their son's 1st year WEBELOS year. then the retiring cubmaster is around to help if needed for the partial 2nd year WEBELOS year... or maybe that person steps into the Committee chair role for their son's crossover year anyway, something like that defined and limited terms, not necessarily set in stone but as practiced guidelines everyone has a job, everyone does something, and there's a support network around to help the newer ones come up through.... and honestly, if anyone asked me..... I would probably suggest against signing up their son for the Tiger year.... certainly not Lion! the only exception might be tiger, if the pack had a perpetual tiger den leader - such as a retired school teacher, that had plenty of time, was great with little kids, etc... then they would prob be able to really make for a fun program, rather than some new parent trying to figure it out as they go...

Do you have any idea when Green Bar Bill said or wrote that? oh, it must have been around 1990..... Yeah, I know the quote isn't exactly addressing the NSP concept..... i was just trying to have a little fun... But in a way it does indirectly address it. If a current scout invites a buddy to join the troop in his patrol, it stands to reason that unless that scout's patrol was too big anyway, that's where the new scout would go... BUT if you were to have a big slug of new scouts joining all at once, as we do these days around B&G or whenever we do our crossovers.... then it kindof stands to reason that they would form a NEW patrol of New Scouts.... or in other words, a patrol that just so happens to be made up of new scouts.... so marching with that logic, this whole business of the NSP concept being introduced around 1990, on purpose, in order to attempt to change something.... just doesn't add up! Well i did learn math the old way.... maybe this is common core stuff...

I'll second that question!

sorry, don't have time to read some of the long replies here But I'll chime in quickly I've recently been doing a fair bit of research around this, having been asked to become the troop treasurer I find a lot of unofficial/anecdotal recommendations, guidelines, or what have you that all basically indicate what I'm guessing others have posted already. Some of it is official from the bsa side, BUT... everything I have seen to date gives the out to the CO, saying basically that this is the suggestion, but it's up to the CO. Basically, I found that the folks in the church office think that the troop is "owned" by the BSA I'm guessing, but it seems that this might at least partially come from what seems like a bad practice.... some time long ago, it's been set up so that the troop stands alone. Nothing financial or otherwise is every seen by the church office. My bet is that a lot of units are set up that way. The most logical way I've seen it explained is still anecdotal but it goes like this - the troop's assets are owned by the co the troop manages these assets and if the troop ever folds, it's the committee's responsibility to use said assets to settle any debts, then whatever is left goes to the co What I'm working moving forward, is to make the church's address the troop's in the eyes of the bank, so that statements go to the church and I figure I will need to send periodic reports to them No doubt lots of questions will be raised when they see the volume of dollars going through

yeah, that's kinda making my point. MAYBE, just maybe, it failed because it wasn't done well. and then your number 2 point goes directly against a method that I still think is sound... don't force the patrol apart. So... instead of the scouts learning to adapt to the new patrol, maybe better to let the patrol as a whole adapt to be progressively more and more independant. Regardless, I fear that my son's den is likely to go the way of the 3rd year webelos (er, patrol... see how I did that ) The SM has good experience and a good vision I think, and the ASM's all get it.... but what little I have observed they are struggling to get out of cub scout mode a bit Our troop has something written up.... I don't know what they are off hand, a few of the positions require a certain rank level, some I think require a recent history of certain attendance level... stuff like that

welcome! It truly is a great resource. i started reading and participating here when my son was early in Cubs, & I feel like sorting through the chaff, I have gained more perspective here that I did from our pack leaders or from the district round tables. It's a shame that so many Tiger dens have that kind of start. I saw it all through my pack years.... dens that start small are not always small, but other times they struggle. I'm not overly familiar with the new program since our boys were the last to earn the AOL AWARD the old way. I did review it and looked with the eye of Cubmaster trying to get the pack ready for it... regardless of the program nuts and bolts.... just remember to focus more on the fun than on the requirements. The ideal situation some times is for the boys to do something fun without even realize they are working on a "requirement" or "award".... then when the game is over, hey guys, look what you just earned.... I'm a big fan of instant recognition, especially for the younger scouts. I really encourage you to involve the other parents in a shared leader role. I think the new program is like this too, but The old program was set up for the parents to be involved in everything as a partner at the tiger level, and it also encourage assigning meetings or month to a boy/parent team.... it spreads the load so you don't burn out, it keeps them engaged and interested, and it grooms parents for future roles for the den or pack.

when this NSP topic comes up, it's said by many of you that "you tried it, and it was a failure" A failure in what way? It still seems to me that a lot of it would have to do with what your definition of success is. As i've mentioned before, my son is in a new NSP. It was just the two of them on the campout this weekend, but the troop just gained a strong handful more AOL award scouts, for the patrol that will get started next week. On the campout, the Guide and Troop Instructor both spent some one on one time with the two current new scouts, making great progress on Scout rank. The troop is just getting the concept started, and honestly i can't say that they are doing it all "right", But they have a good vision at least. The SM has chosen to go the route of an assigned NSP ASM. I had lots of conversations over the weekend with the SM and ASM's about a lot of various things. One topic I hope is that I got them to thinking about how it might not work well if the ASM becomes a 3rd year WEBELOS den leader. And another observation they had was a nearby troop whose NSP efforts failed... but it seems that in that case the NSP was basically being treated like Frat house pledges. they were doing all the work, and all the unwanted nasty or hard jobs.... yeah, no that ain't gonna work!

I was assuming he meant these http://www.511tactical.com/511-tactical-pants-mens-cotton.html but I was wondering the same thing to make sure... they have several styles that look great.

yes, trust. It's a funny thing in a way though, because sometimes knowledge does not inspire trust. i see this a lot in scouts. If a person with a lot of experience &/or knowledge works with someone without knowledge but experience in doing it the "wrong" way, that experienced person is looked at like he or she has three eyes! even if the situation is not at all confrontational and is very friendly. A person with firm ideas is not so easy to sway....

I just learned this a few weeks ago from my SM specific teacher at U of Scouting. I too wish I would have l=known it years ago. I had a tax question come up the other day in my research for our troop bank account. Some sources say that the troop should use the tax id of the CO (church) But other things I read said taht we might want to get our own TID with the CO listed as the responsible party. Told by CPA that then we would have to file a tax form. Is that true? and would there be benefit to getting our own number? For informational trivia purposes only, of course....