Trevorum

I've been trying to find out whether the Madison Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps is still a registered BSA unit. I've checked their website and, while they have a marvelous "history" link with some great old photos, I can not pinpoint a date when the corps might have severed BSA ties. Any info would be appreciated! Thanks! -T

Hunt makes a very good point: "What is new is a measurable number of people willing to self-identify as atheists or openly gay. It hasn't been all that long since a time when people would have been shocked by the very idea of atheist Boy Scouts or gay scout leaders" I would only add that it hasn't been that long since people were shocked by atheists or homosexuals in general society. But this supports my contention that American society is evolving (as all societies always do) and that BSA will need to adapt or stagnate or, worse, wither. There are already signs that BSA membership is stagnating / declining in many parts of the country. I don't believe this trend is completely (or even mostly) due to the above mentioned social issues. However, BSA has become (IMO) fairly conservative in recent decades. By using that word, I mean slow to change. There are some things that will never become outmoded, like Trustworthy, Loyal, etc... But BSA (again, IMO) should become more agile in reaching out to youth.

Hunt, I completely agree with what you say. I have no problem at all with Awana or the Royal Rangers limiting membership to those with narrowly defined religious beliefs. OTOH, while it has been forced in recent decades to more precisely define its own identity limits, I think BSA has traditionally been more populist. Only recently have litmus tests been a precondition for membership.

Yes, Ed, I know. That's exactly my point. I believe that BSA engages in unjust discrimination. It is perfectly legal and many people are OK with it, but it is not moral. In our country's history, many immoral things used to be legal. Slowly, our society tends to correct our inherent biases. It takes a long time, but I have a great faith that Americans eventually do the right thing. It used to be legal to enslave other people on the basis of ancestry, but no more. It used to be legal to disenfranchise fully half of the adult population on the basis of a chromosome, but no more. It used to be legal to employ 10 year olds in coal mines, but no more. It used to be legal to imprison people because of their preferred consensual sex acts, but no more. It used to be legal to fire an employee merely because they became pregnant, but no more. Yes, I know that morality is in the eye of the beholder. That's also my point. Slaveholders were, by and large, well-meaning people who fervently believed that their social role was divinely ordained and thus moral. Today, no-one defends slavery as moral. I've said it before: BSA is on the wrong side of history with regards to it's unjust discrimination in membership standards. Sooner or later, BSA will either change or else it will become an anachronism. BSA has changed along with American society on the issues of race and gender. I have great faith that it will continue to evolve.

You're right, Hunt. It was poorly worded and I didn't mean to offend. My point was from the perspective of the parents who see belief in the supernatural as equivalent to belief in magic. Good, solid, well-educated, moral folks who want their son to benefit from the terrific Scouting movement but are nonetheless told that their son doesn't measure up to BSA standards. Of course as you point out, from the perspective of inside the membership, they simply don't share the minimum necessary religious beliefs. I think that's a shame. I think Scouting is a big enough tent to include all youth.

Greetings back atcha' Big Bear! And welcome to the campfire. Pull up a log and share some stories!

Softly falls the light of day, as our campfire fades away. Silently, each Scout must ask, 'Have I done my daily task?' 'Have I kept my honor bright?' 'Can I guiltless slepp tonight?' 'Have I done and have I dared, everything to be prepared?' I salute a fellow Scouter, gone home.

I tend to agree with scoutldr. Without replying to the original post, I'd like to point out that this year, new legislation went into effect in our state regulating youth camps. Among various new procedures designed to ensure camper safety, is the requirement that ALL adults must register with camp administration immediately upon arrival, even if they are only parents just dropping off some dry socks for Billy.

Hello eghiglie, and welcome to the forums! Congratulations to your scouts! I've not heard of such an award, but if I was CM, I'd spring for some bright red suspenders to hold up those "heavy" belts! Not official uniform, to be sure, but cubs love fun stuff.

As with many arguments, one of the problems here is semantics. These days, popular useage has narrowed the word "discrimination" to mean bad behavior. It is actually broader than that and means simply to choose between options. We all discriminate all the time. Between ripe bananas and green ones, Between chick flicks and action movies. Between blue politicians and red ones. What is the bad behavior is unjust discrimination that is unwarranted or is hurtful to people. Like blacks sit in back, whites in front. Men can vote, women can't. The semantics obscure the fact that some people feel it is OK to tell a 8 year old that he can't be a cub scout because his parents do not believe in supernatural beings or magic. Or, that it's OK to tell a 15 year old who has been in Scouting since he was 8 that he is not clean or moral because he has come to realize that he is gay.

Labels are excellent things for file folders. Not so great for human beings. I like to believe that each of us is more complex than a few adjectives could summarize.

In 1976, the Boston, Cambridge, and Minuteman Councils combined to form the Massachusetts Bay Federated Council. It didn't work and in 1979 the councils regained their independant status. Eventually that didn't work out either and by 2002 they had all ended up back together again as the Boston Minuteman Council.

(sung in 3 part harmony, to the tune of "Barbara Ann") Bob-Bob-Bob, Bob-Bob-a-White, Bob-Bob-Bob, Bob-Bob-a-White, Rockin and a rollin, Rockin and a reelin Bob-a-White, Bob-Bob, Bob-Bob-a-White!

I'd rather know how many people watch "Animal Planet" or "The History Channel" ...

Jefferey, Agreeing with packsaddle, let me also point out that there is a school of thought among evolutionary anthropologists in which human homosexuality is very "natural" indeed. This idea supposes that a genetic basis for homosexuality would confer a survival advantage upon any breeding population in which the gene was present at a specified, low frequency. When expressed, the gene would result in additional food security for the social group.

So, for those who camp in areas with these ready-made lean-tos and shelters and such, the solution is obvious: move 8 feet over and sleep under the stars (not the roof).

In your unit, who pays for short term camping fees, the individual scouts or the unit? I'm not talking about food costs or about long term permit fees. I'm asking about the per-head fees that are charged by a campground, or by the distict for Camporees, Webelos Woods, etc.

We were on trek 13. It was almost leisurely compared to our last one. Lots of time in camps to enjoy the programs or just the scenery. We're now looking towards a sub-zero expedition this winter somewhere up in Minnesota. For us Texans, the idea of making a snow shelter is exotic beyond belief!

Pete, Welcome to the forums. Lots of answers and opinions here. I hope your next thread has happier news! First, let me congratulate you for having an SPL who handled the issue in your absence and promptly reported to you upon your return. I'm sure this must be a very common occurrance - boys with knives do stupid things from time to time. It's our job to keep them safe (from each other as well as from themselves) and to teach them. Three years ago at summer camp we had a similmar situation. One scout, in anger, used his knife to cut up another fellows hat. No direct confrontation. If we hadn't been 500 miles from home, I would have sent him home. As it was, we had a long conference about anger, displaced behaviors, and long term consequences. He was very quiet for a day and I've never hald another problem with him. Being the dad of the offender is especially tough on you. You need to be impartial but still support your own son. It sounds like you have done that. I agree with the leadership decision to revoke his Chit and to remove him from camp. That must have been a shock to him; I hope it served it's intended purpose and has not discouraged him from Scouting in general. Going forward. I'm sure you know best how to counsel your own son. Perhaps to avoid conflict of interest, another ASM should counsel the other fellow. The issue should definitely be raised in the next SM conference (but not BoR) for both fellows. Good luck and let us know how it turns out. -T

IMHO, the relationship between Scouting and politics should be the same as that between Scouting and religion: we should attempt to educate our scouts about the diversity of beliefs in this country without actively promoting any particular one. Similarly, the relationship between Scouting and patriotism should be the same as that between Scouting and reverence: active promotion of both while recognizing that there are different ways of expressing either. btw, one of my favorite questions in BoRs is "How do you do your 'Duty to Country'? We discuss a teenagers rights and responsibilities and eventually wend our way to agreeing that learning about our country, government, and history is the best preparation for becoming a responsible, voting citizen.

OK, thanks for the info. I won't squeal to the UP ...

Most of the Philmont backcountry has no signal, but I was amazed to see a number of fellows whip out their cell phones on top of the Tooth of Time and sit there, blithely chatting with moms, little brothers, and girlfriends. It's a brave new world...

packsaddle sez, ... Moreover, I think Darth Vader was a Presbyterian, "...join with me Luke, it is your destiny." I had never thought about it before, but I guess that "Loo-tenant Dan" must have been a Presbyterian also ...

Last night I gave a SM conference for an Eagle candidate. A fine young man, I know he will have no problem with his EBoR. However, in reviewing his application I spotted a possible records issue which I hope will not become a problem. I've never faced this one befiore and peraps some one can offer insight or advice. The fellow transferred into our troop from an out of state council 3 years ago as a Star Scout. He has all of his MB cards except one (a Citizenship) which he unfortunately lost somewhere in several of the family's moves. He knows the date of the MB because he recieved it at the same time as another of the citizenships, but he can not prove the award. So - if our council has no record of the MB award, will there be any problem with the application? I imagine the old council has the record - do councils routinely consult each other on these matters? Thanks! -T

hmmm... Is that correct? Our V Crew 19 & 20 yr olds are wearing the eagle knot above the pocket. Dang, sometimes I really miss ol' BW to set us all straight ...