Trevorum

John, I dont think anyone is disputing the fact that BSA recognizes Buddhism. No one wants to change that. The point being made is that many Buddhists are also atheists, and BSA doesnt seem to mind that in the least, knowing that the Buddhist ethical system can lead them "to be the best kind of citizens". It would be nice if BSA were to extend that courtesy to others.

John, we should remind everyone that PRAY is a clearinghouse only, and does not represent all of the religious awards that have been recognized by BSA. Some awards have no connection with, and are not available through PRAY. Furthermore, the existence (or not) of a religious award has no bearing on whether or not a faith is "inside the BSA tent". There are many perfectly fine religions which do not have a religious award or whose award has not been approved for uniform wear by BSA. (For example, the Hart and Crescent which we have discussed elsewhere on these forums.) Adherents of these faiths are nonetheless welcome as BSA members.

No, I was a scout in California. I picked it up by the side of the trail in the San Bernardino Mountains.

My favorite hiking stick as a youth was of manzanita. Very hard, beautiful woood. Gorgeous grain. My stick had a naturally knarled shape that perfectly fit my hand. Alas, it got lost in one of my many moves as an itinerant grad student. Wish I still had that stick.

Mark, yes I understand your feelings about how diversity can be confusing. Nonetheless, if a council issues a CSP, then the patch is ipso facto authorized for wear.

An interesting research topic. I'm not sure most folks on the forums here will know much about their council policies in these matters. Some will of course, but most of us are probably unit scouters. I can tell you that our unit has two fellows with Downs and another with Aspergers; in serving these scouts I have discovered that our local distict advancement chair is very knowledgeable about scouts with disabilities and about alternative advancement procedures. If you want to get a bigger picture of council policies nationwide, I'd suggest selecting a sample of councils and just calling them up to find the name of the contact person, then writing or emailing that person. You'll probably get much better data than you will from us ...

Welcome to the forums! Very glad you joined the campfire.

Hi Dan, I don't believe there has ever been a BSA requirement to earn a religious award for rank advancement. Individual units probably have set their own requirements from time to time; I can easily envision a pastor COR decreeing that any scout in "his" troop WILL earn the religious award before he goes before an Eagle BoR. I vaguely remember a story sometime in the early 90s (late 80s?), maybe on the west coast (?) about a pagan Eagle scout who had to appeal past his own EBoR. Sorry I am unsure of the details. Unless someone can verify the story, don't print it. -Trevorum

Ah. OK, I defer, Brian. The law is a mysterious and murky thing to me.

East of Kingman, Arizona (don't forget Winona), Barstow ... (sorry, couldn't resist!) Only 3 museums I know of in Gallup; none scouting related. The closest I know of is the Philmont museum north of Gallup.

I'm in awe of anyone who can contemplate swimming a mile; even more so for anyone who has actually done it! {glug, glug} Congratulations to you son, Bill, for setting his sights high!

{chuckle} Won't happen. If a fellow was to be so bold as to declare his faith in the FSM (or the IPU), and assuming that the EBoR was to deny him, cooler heads would surely prevail upon appeal to council and/or national. BSA legal would know they would surely loose this one on freeedom of religion grounds. I sorta remember that something similar happened for a pagan scout 10 years ago or so; the fellow's Eagle was awarded upon appeal. Don't remember the details. Maybe DanKroh knows the story.

emb021 and hendricks, With respect, I understand that you feel that special issue CSPs shouldn't be worn on the uniform, that they are confusing, and that you don't think they are necessary. However, these are you own opinions and are not backed up anywhere by BSA policy. This is a common mistaken belief, that there is only ONE acceptable CSP per council. Not true. Again, I will emphasize that any CSP is valid for uniform wear as long as it (1) is your own council, (2) was legitimately issued by the council, and (3) is one of the four shapes that have been approved by national. Collectors have their own way of cataloging patches. These schemes are intended to facilitate their hobby and have nothing to do with uniform policy. Some councils have only issued a single CSP since these were first authorized in 1970 (eg. Alapaha Council). Others have issued hundreds of CSPs (eg., Simon Kenton Council). It's a local option that we should acknowledge and respect. If you have a favorite council CSP, by all means wear that one. But please do not confuse other Scouts and Scouters by giving them incorrect advice. -Trevorum (always ready for a good patch swap! )

Well said.

In his list of uniform mistakes, emb021 lists the following: "6. CSPs (proliferation of CPS-shaped patches worn in place of the CSP)". Not sure what is meant here. Any council shoulder flap (CSP) is valid for uniform wear as long as it is (1) your own current council, (2) was actually issued by the council, and (3) is one of the four approved shapes. Importantly, CSPs do not become invalid once a council issues a new design. Many councils have multiple designs in circulation simultaneously. Some of these are commemorative (e.g., council anniversary), are issued for special activities (e.g, philmont trek), or special events (e.g., annual Friends of Scouting campaign). However, ALL such special CSPs are valid for uniform wear.

OGE, a minor point but Baha'i is generally considered to be a breakaway Islamic sect (in the same sense that Christianity is a breakaway Jewish sect) and thus has biblical roots. Beth, welcome! We're glad you're done lurking and hope you'll share your thoughts again!

OK, Gonzo, if that's your interpretation then I want to apologize. Your statements, "Belief in God is fundamental to BSA membership.", and "... a scout must agree to live by the Scout Oath and Law. How can he if he doesn't believe that God exists? " led me to believe that you saw the issue from the simplistic prism of western theology. I'm genuinely relieved to learn that you are more tolerant than that. We've had some earlier members of this forum loudly proclaim that their faith system is the only true one, and I suppose I was responding to that intolerance. As you may have discerned, I strongly believe that religious tolerance is a vitally important value in our world. Some Scouters seem not to appreciate the value of religious diversity and I find that I am bound to confront that attitude, whether it comes from ignorance or self-righteousness. As I have said before, God is too big to fit inside one religion. If our words on this forum serve to spark even a few Scouters to learn more about Buddhism (as you have now done) or any other belief system, then I want to again thank Scouter Terry for providing the venue. I'm not Buddhist, but perhaps I know more about Buddhism than do many Scouters. It is not a single philosophy but has many variations. Some Buddhists are theistic; others are adamantly not (Sort of like UUs). The notion of a powerful, controlling god is as nonsensical to them as Invisible Pink Unicorns. I miss Kahuna. I wish he were still here.

FScouter is right on. The biggest single mistake I made as a SM (at least that I know about!) was in trying to orchestrate a switch from age-graded patrols to mixed age patrols. We adults had good intentions, but we should have known better. Coupled with some other factors, the troop ended up loosing nearly the entire crowd of new fellows. My advice now would echo BPs: let the fellows form their OWN patrols.

Just imagine the possibilities! I could invite the whole troop over to mow the front pasture!

Gonzo, so your position is that Buddhists who do not believe in a god should be denied BSA membership. This will be of great interest to the thousands of Buddhist Scouts and Scouters who are currently registered. You should express your concerns to the National Religious Relationships subcommittee, directed by National Executive Mr. Don York. His email is DoYork@netbsa.org

Yep, Beavah always has good advice. If you can overlook his accent!

"God has a sense of humor". Elegantly demonstrated by Schrodinger's cat.

Yes, you are correct. But they don't want to. And it would be terribly embarrassing to have this blatant inconsistency exposed. I think raising the issue would force BSA to confront, and hopefully, rectify it.

I think that mk9750 is on the right track when he proposes to further discuss spirituality and reverence with the scout. The questions he proposes are excellent ones. OGE, Gonzo, nld, and others are wrong (IMO) when they say that belief in God is essential to BSA membership. Buddhists do NOT believe in a god, a supreme being, or a higher power. Yet they are allowed full membership by BSA national without blinking. The DRP is meaningless when it comes to Buddhists. Would you have us revoke their membership because they do not believe in God?

In all honesty, I think the issue gets down to BP's notion of "Reverence" and not necessarily "God" Buddhists have been members of BSA for a long, long time. Probably from the very start, with troops in San Francisco, Seattle, Honolulu, and other similar places. No one has ever wanted to kick out these Americans, for they are clearly reverent. (Same with Hindus). However, I believe a problem started to grow sometime back in the 1960s when active atheism (of the M.O'Hair flavor) became increasingly visable in America. These people were not reverent (in the sense that BSA wanted to teach young people) and BSA decided that they would not qualify for membership. Active atheists - meaning people who were not reverent to anything - would be excluded. The problem came in the details. How to implement this decision? No one ever meant to exclude Buddhists with the wording of the DRP, but it was (probably) written by middle-class, white Christians (perhaps a Jew or two) who did not have a lot of background in religious diversity. However, the wording of the DRP has since been used (mistakenly, from BP's perspective) to try to exclude other reverent persons such as Wiccans, UUs, and nontheists. So, today we have, as Gern says, a Buddhist elephant in the room. Everyone knows they do not accept the DRP, but no one wants to cause a stink. I believe that if someone would bring suit against BSA on this issue, BSA would have to re-word the DRP to (properly) emphasize reverence rahther than God, OR allow local option with respect to religion and matters of faith. Just my thoughts.