Trevorum

I really should know better than to feed the trolls, but ... You ask, "Do you agree with the exclusion of homosexuals/atheists? Do you think that these groups are less "moral" or "deserving"? Do you feel you are biased against/have prejudices against the two groups?" The answer is, some Scouters on these boards will say, "Yes", and some will say, "No". Just like asking, "Do you believe we should entrust the GOP with four more years?"

Welcome, from one Mr. T to another!

I think the extremes within both groups are comparable. Kinda full circle obnoxiousness.

"... does provide some entertainment value, but this steady stream of misstatements should give any voter pause." Yeah, am I sure glad that this last 8 years is almost over!

I think it's good to stir the pot now and then. But Beav is right, this sort of discussion belongs in our "Issues" forum.

John, my message went out via email to (mostly) adults, but it explicitly directed Scouts to contact me. I expected the parent to give a copy of the notice to their son who would then follow up. I did not expect the result would be mostly parents following up on behalf of their son. As Lisa notes, I expect to hear back from less than half of the boys.

Ed, that's precisely how I replied to all those parents. I expected some hovering parents to reply to the notice but I was simply flabbergasted by the ratio of parents to scouts.

For those of you who are merit badge counselors, I'd like to hear a bit about your experiences in this matter. In response to a fairly rare opportunity, I organized a workshop type event in which scouts could complete several requirements for a "specialty" merit badge (ie., not typically offered at summer camps). Our council media person helped me advertise the opportunity. The notice read, in part, "... interested Scouts should contact [me]." I've had a very good reponse to the opportunity, with more than 80 inquiries. However, all but 3 of these inquiries were from parents telling me that their little Johnny would like to participate. Only 3 inquiries were directly from scouts themselves! Do scouts no longer contact a MB counselor themselves?

Chug says, "(Good grief, I sound like a right liberal) Not that there's anything wrong with that ...

John's caution is well founded. Back when I was a grad student, I spent a weekend visiting a summer field project that was being headed by a 27 year old assistant professor. The field crew were all undergraduate coeds and the living arrangements for the summer were a 3 bdr rental house in a remote rural location. There was no other adult present. At the time, I marveled at his good fortune, being surrounded day and night by all those atractive and flirtaceous girls. However, the summer ended in disaster. He was accused of innapropriate behavior by one of the coeds and was ultimately fired by the university. He never taught college again and eventually left the discipline entirely. That was a powerful lesson for me and I have been careful to never let myself be in a situation where an unfounded accusation could ruin my career. The lesson is immediate for Adventurous Dancer, and for ALL Venturing Crew Leaders.

I agree with Acco. In every SM conference I've ever given, we have always discussed "Duty to God" (as well as Duty to my Country, Duty to Self, and Duty to Others). I tend to ask something along the lines of, "What do you think the Scout Oath means by 'Duty to God/Country/Self/Others'? After some exploratory discussion, most Scouts will conclude that we all have the same duties to our country (for a Scout, this includes going to school and becoming prepared to be an informed, participating citizen), but different Scouts may well have different duties to God. Some Scouts go to Church once a week, some pray four times every day, others have a bonfire on the full moon. We have a religiously diverse unit, and the boys naturally develop a healthy awareness - and respect - for the beliefs of their patrol mates, which might be very, very different from their own beliefs. Very occasionally, I have had a Scout who is honestly unsure what Duty to God might mean for him. Sometimes this is because his family are not churchgoers and do not participate in traditional religious rituals (praying, services, etc.). Sometimes (and this more common for older fellows) it is because the Scout himself is starting to ask the Large Questions and seek his own answers. In these circumstances, I listen and I try to get the fellow to think about the concept of Reverence from a larger persepctive. I always learn a lot when I listen. As Barry often reminds us, I love this Scouting Stuff.

I think I'll teach our Scouts to salute the American flag, respect other flags, lick stamps, and eat cupcakes.

NJ, is this the same type of relationship as between the federal government and the sovereign Navajo Nation (or other tribal nations)?

omygosh! To think all this time I've been blithely throwing away envelopes with cancelled flag stamps on them when I should have been solemnly burning them instead! Honest, I meant no disrespect to our national flag. I am mortified. However, I can't figure out how to burn an uneaten cupcake ...

just wait until Ed discovers it and starts up with Merlyn ...

Calico - don't get your hopes up. "Dogma" was indeed hilarious, but how could it not be with the likes of George Carlin playing a pompous priest with a sacred nine-iron.

Huh? I saw the movie and I guessed I missed all that controversy stuff. I tought it was a typically cheesy kid's fantasy story, very similar to Narnia. Instead of talking lions, this one had talking polar bears. Both drew a strong and distinct contrast between Good and Evil, in the vein of such fare. The critics must be the same folks who were convinced that Harry Potter was the work of Satan.

SSScout, I wish I had met you at the 05 Jambo. I was working in that tent also, at the UU booth. Your outlook of welcoming acceptance, encouraging the development of spirituality in young people from whatever direction it comes is true to BP. I wish more BSA chaplains really understood this in their heart.

"Because Jewishness is both a religion and a race, a case could be made for an Atheist Jew, just like their are Atheist Negros and Atheist Asians." You are confusing ethnicity with race. A common mistake to be sure, but they are different phenomena. A better comparison with an athiest Jew would be an atheist Roma, or perhaps an atheist Dineh'. (edited typo)(This message has been edited by trevorum)

Anyone can certainly hold an opinion that atheism is a religion. However, people who professionally study human belief systems (these people are called anthropologists) generally adhere to the criteria I outlined when classifying systems of thought as religions. These professionals tend to agree that atheism is not a religion. As noted by Merlyn, Dan, and others, atheists may also subscribe to recognized religious beliefs. For example, an atheist may religiously believe in reincaration, in wood nymphs, or in "The Force" without accepting the existence of gods.

All religions have three elements in common: 1. belief in supernatural entities or forces; 2. system of ritualized behaviors; 3. system of moral/ethical rules. Atheism has none of these elements and is therefor not a religion.

emb021 is absolutely correct, and this is THE reason why requiring a religious emblem as part of the standard Boy Scout advancement program is impossible. Some faiths simply do not have a religious award. Others, like Wicca, have such programs but they have not been approved by BSA. IMHO, the practice of religion within a Scouting context is best left to the Scout and his family.

TheScout, I imagine there is a lot of overlap between the job of a minister and that of a community organizer.

John, Under your proposal, what would the Wiccan Scout in my unit do? There is no BSA approved emblem for him.

"I really don't know what you all would do if you had as much history as us Brits?" Ahh, but you see, that just means we have more pre-history than you!