TAHAWK

4 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

You should let the Council Commissioner and Council President know about abusive behavior from council employees as they can assure that such actions are corrected.  The SE and all local council staff are under the management of the local Executive Board.  The President and Council Commissioner can contact other Board and Executive Committee members.  The local council is similar to the National Council but different at the same time.  The professional staff is there to serve Scouting and to help volunteers to deliver the program.

And when the SE is doing the yelling and screaming?  I.e., in the real world.  ?

I committed the ultimate sin of contacting the Council Commissioner to ask that RT Commissioners announce the need for staff for seven weeks of Scoutmaster training  at Summer Camp - training promised for years and never delivered - training I was asked to organize one month before the first week of camp.  

He seemed  perplexed about what Commissioners would have to do with training, if willing to "spread the word.,"  The SE was reportedly furious, and I was told by the  Council Training Chairman NEVER to contact any Council official or employee directly again on anything having to do with training.  How that would work,  given that cooperation with the Summer Camp staff was pretty much essential  for seven weeks,  was not part of the monologue. 

The Camp Director and Program Director, with whom I communicate directly (among others) several times a day for seven weeks, seemed to have been left out of the loop on the subject of  shunning.  They seemed very pleased to see the training taking place for a change, and told me so.. 

I, on the other paw, have not been asked by council for anything but money since, and our districts were deconstructed three years ago.

13 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Hey I know that guy.   @TAHAWK your council knows who to call if they have a question.   There is no longer a volunteer facing interface outside the local council so any inquiry is going back to them,.    And shooting at each other is still prohibited.   In case you want to review other prohibited activities:       https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/#b

Nice to see a trebuchet is still OK.  😄

2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I understand you point is in general, but there are now clear policies out there.

Website on the safe use: Safe Use of Medication in Scouting | Boy Scouts of America
Main policy document: Medication Use in Scouting, No. 680-036 2019 rev.

About the issue that started my quest, it's clear now.  Reason prevailed.  not that it changed our practice.

About beer, clear as mud.

“It’s about giving people the resources and support they need so that everyone can be on equal footing, and then compete on equal footing. Equitable treatment means we all end up at the same place,” she [Harris] said as the video ended.

So may we distinguish between equality of opportunity and guaranteed equality of outcomes - e.g. "Eagle for all"?

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

All should realize that there have been hundreds who have lost their jobs at the National Council and Supply so the staff is strained to do their jobs and several others who are not there.  Also, most inquiries are now directed to local councils.  This new policy does make me concerned about questions being answered uniformly but it has happened.

 

The policy for decades is that questions should go to council.  The practiced pretty generally for decades is that if council doesn't have a clue, tough.

COVID is not a general absolution.

EXAMPLE: BSA once had a policy that expressly said that drugs, including alcohol were not allowed on Scout property or at Scout activities:  "It is the policy of the Boy Scouts of America that the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances is not permitted at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members."

When the question of Scouts possessing personal prescription drugs at camp came up, say drugs to be taken within seconds of the onset of a medical crisis, I was told by a council "professional" that all prescription drugs in that council's camp had to be kept locked up inside that camp's locked medical lodge, over a mile from our camp.  Good luck with that.

The BSA policy on drugs was cited, so, on return from camp,  I tried to look for that policy and found it had been edited out of G2SS  and not replaced elsewhere.   Instead, remaining rules adopt the non-existent rule by reference:  

"Controlled substances,  ...

1. I will not possess, distribute, transport, consume, or use any of the following items prohibited by law or in violation of any Scouting rules, regulations, and policies:
   • Alcoholic beverages or controlled substances, including marijuana.... [emphasis added].

But the rule, regulation, and policy statement to which the Code of Conduct once referred, is no longer in existence, so one has no guidance in fact, only by speculation.

My council was skeptical, then flabbergasted when they looked for the former policy and found it gone, and it was suggested that I "call National." and share what I discovered.  Surely, they thought,  BSA still intended to ban drugs in some sense.  This was a 'clerical error."   In the meanwhile, they republished the former BSA policy as a council policy.

It was their opinion that, under what was then council policy, live-saving drugs had to be kept somewhere where they could do some good.

No one at National would take my calls, so I wrote. I received no answer to my letter, or the two following letters, each polite and straightforward.  I was busy truing to organize  seven week's of Scoutmaster Training at Summer Camp on one month's notice, so I gave up trying to have BSA communicate.  We wrote the other council off as a potential summer camp site.

I assumed thereafter, and to this date, with all attendant risks, that the revoked policy - not published by BSA for years now, but still repeated by councils - was still in effect but did not apply to our severely allergic Scout's Epi pens or similar cases.

"Sound leadership."

3 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

The current commissioner staff is like this. They have the names and email addresses of the key assistant commissioners all on their webpage. They also answer emails. 

I have received, within 2 weeks, answers from safety and field sports off of their webpages. 

Great news!  See, things can improve with the right leadership. 👍

10 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Tahawk,

I outlined that the charter for a council could be revoked or not renewed.  So do think that it is a good policy to revoke charters because some volunteers think that a Merit Badge College is too easy despite others, i.e. those doing the MBC see it as appropriate?  Really?  You would totally reorganize a council for that?  Of course not!  It is a so called nuclear option.  It takes months if not years to work through everything and harms relationships in the council.  It should only occur for grievous problems.

If the council has an SE who is wishing to move up to increasing larger councils, non-compliance could theoretically harm their ability to be promoted but it is not really very practical because of HR law.  

So as I said earlier, the only reasonable way to have compliance is the appeal to the local council and volunteers.  

No, I would fire every single Scouter, employee or volunteers who took it upon themselves to cheat by ignoring the Guide to Advancement,  Addition by subtraction.

They might be allowed to reapply under appropriate conditions were recidivism seems unlikely.

Tell me more about what you think HR requires.  It was one of my areas of practice as a counselor and trial counsel for AT&T in all levels of state and federal federal court.  So far as I can tell from results in cases, ignoring company rules is always a valid basis for adverse employment decisions, unless the rules themselves violate some law, such as by requiring volunteers not to report instances of sex abuse to public authorities.  There, is not, I believe, a civil right to cheat and lie - another example of the general legality of being discriminating.

Where does one find published telephone numbers for BSA National managers? 

My recent experience, say over the last thirty years, is that when, I obtained such a number, largely through relationships with Scouters at National, the most common response I received to the controversial "hello" and "My name is X and I am the Y in my district"  was  "How did you get this number."  I was calling with questions that came up at roundtables and Key Three meetings that Council  said it could not answer.  We felt like having The Word so that we could follow BSA policy would be nice.  Being abusive when you are seeking help is not only rude but also stupid.  Oh, there was a couple of years when the head of training insisted that his staff answer calls from volunteers in the field - say 2014-2015, but he retired,  Good guy.  The old policy promptly returned.

The BSA safety guy used to come here, which  I found educational, but it's fair to say he was given a hard time.  He has not been around, I think, since the squirt gun rule was adopted.

"The Boy Scouts of America may revoke or decline to renew council charters for failure to comply with the Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, or policies of the Boy Scouts of America, or in any instance where it deems such action advisable in the interests of Scouting."   

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/523-027_WEB.pdf

https://scoutingevent.com/attachment/BSA509/document_15474979790_2028.pdf

No local council ... shall have authority to increase or diminish requirements or standards established by the Corporation [BSA]."

Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America, Article VII, Section 5, Clause 4.

No power.  What a hoot.

17 hours ago, BQZip said:

You misread my statement...I agree with you. My comments are CRITICAL of CRT, not supportive.

So I understood.  Hence the "UPVOTE."  Again, " sincere thanks."  

59 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Tahawk,

I have been a national level volunteer and have many national staff friends too.  Tico served longer as the National Commissioner than anyone else and has significantly impacted many key decisions.  Most of the time, he was successful but occasionally Tico's view was in the minority.  Tico is a very dedicated national volunteer who has done much for Scouting and has been and is very influential.

I did not say that the National Council will not enforce its rules and policies but rather that it has little power to do so.  It has to rely on local councils to enforce the rules and policies correctly as it has no ability to compel compliance.  There can be interpretive issues.  Ultimately, local councils, districts, and units make the determinations.  Whenever asked, the National Council tries very hard to be absolutely consistent.  

The national staff carries out the decisions made by the volunteers on the committees.  Local councils should be led by volunteers who are responsible for following national policies and rules.

Your testimony is contrary to my experience and the experience of others.   I believe it is contrary to reality, but that is just the experience of others than yourself.  Whatever influence Tico had, he could not get Spanish-speakers to represent Scouting to parent meetings in the LA barrio. 

 I have explained above how BSA COULD stop summer camp merit badge mills but elects not to do so.  Oh, that might offend the wrong-doers.  How tragic.  

No power.  Ha!

The Associated Press   - Oct 30, 2000 Updated Jul 13, 2017 

"SANTA BARBARA -- A Boy Scout executive was stripped of his Eagle Scout status and fired by the Boy Scouts of America National Council 10 days after he publicly admitted he was a homosexual, his attorney said.

4 hours ago, BQZip said:

Equity is a KEY component of critical race theory. Anything short of an equal start (which is impossible as everyone doesn't have the same life experiences) is discrimination and falls short of "equity". Offering some event to everyone regardless of race, gender, etc is not enough. You have to correct for all disparities or it isn't "equity".

So no one "starts" "equal, ' as you say,  and, thus "equity, "a KEY component of critical race theory" is "impossible,. as you say.  That being agreed, your "critical race theory' is an illusion - a slogan divorced from reality - an excuse for throwing responsibility for the inevitably unequal outcomes, on someone(s) other than the individuals themselves.   If you speak for BSA, we owe you sincere thanks.  You have explained the evil we must utterly crush.  

"On my honor,  I will do my best ....."

"A Scout is ...."

"Discrimination," by the way, is largely legal and ethical.  It is through discrimination that we do not voluntarily  contribute to the funds to pay "leaders" who produce bad results for the organization, as baseball teams discriminate against "every day" players who cannot hit a breaking ball.  

2 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

To Tahawk,

Sorry to get you so upset that you used all capital letters that is said to mean yelling.  Was not trying to argue.  See below.

 

To Tahawk and Eagle94-A1,

Perhaps some of the issue between us that to me in these times, BSA means the National Council.  Local councils are independent 501c3 corporations with their own boards that operate largely independently.  The contract between the National Council and local councils authorizes the local councils to operate the program.  The only actual recourse that the National Council has over the local councils is two things.  One is that the National Council can decommission the Scout Executive that means that they are no longer qualified for the position.  It is not clear what would happen if the local council Executive Board refused to allow the SE to leave.  Probably would be decided by the local councils state laws.  The other option is to revoke the council charter that would mean that a new council would have to be formed.  Both of those are extreme measures and would never be used because a council is not being rigorous enough in youth fulfilling requirements.  

So many of the issues between us appear to be that I am exclusively referring to the National Council unless it is specifically called out to be the local council.  There is much variability in councils and how they are managed.  The BSA has little input into those councils.  How they are run depends upon the local Executive Committee and Executive Board.  All members of the EC and EB are by definition volunteers.

On the national level, all National Executive Committee (NEC) and National Executive Board (NEB) are volunteers by definition.  For nearly a decade, I have served on various national committees.  All are chaired by volunteers (usually a NEB member), have a single national professional who serves as staff, and only volunteers can vote.  All decisions about all policies, program changes, financial issues, human resources, benefit packages, etc (in other words, everything) is made by those volunteers.  During the past decade, I have been involved with a Venturing Crew, a Troop, and a Pack.  Most national committee members whom I know are still active with units in their councils or have been so within the last few years.  Like local council executive boards, the National Executive Board has some members who are not active at the unit level, some may have been Scouts as a youth, but all are very successful in business.  All are volunteers - it is required just as it is for local boards.

The National Staff carries out decisions of the committees of the NEB.  They do not make any significant decisions themselves.  Their job is to carry out what the volunteers have decided.  The National Professional Staff strictly adheres to Volunteer Led and Professionally Guided, that is the professionals provide input but the volunteers make all of the policy and other decisions.

The NEC and NEB volunteers are very dedicated, loyal, sensitive to all points of view, and always want to know how potential decisions affect the youth members.

Local councils boards are similar in make up.  So the volunteers who are working in the units need to be pro-active.

There are 253 local councils and it makes no sense for me to try to defend the actions of which I only know about one - my local council.  

 

I merely wanted my responses to be distinct from your statements.  In the spirit of Scouting, your apology is accepted, though your capacity to get me "upset' is so nearly zero as to be immaterial.   i went through Nazis threatening my wife for my representation of "Mud People'" in court.  THAT was upsetting.

I have spoken to dozens of "national" volunteers and not a one imagined that volunteers have actual power over, or even much influence on,  BSA decisions.  This is one key reason Tico resigned as National Commissioner.

Further, your admission that BSA will not enforce its rules against dishonest behaviors - and the fact that it indeed upholds the dishonestly - speaks volumes about BSA  responsibility. for that dishonesty.  And here we are.

It happens  in discussions that  something other than the "official" opinion may  be held by some - even most - participants despite the repetition of the official position.

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY VS GUARANTEED EQUAL OUTCOME (EVERY YOUTH AN EAGLE).

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

Tahawk,

Referring to your numbers:

1.  Scouting has evolved as society has changed.  If it had not and still did the same things with the same uniforms, it would be an anachronism.  So sound.

CHANGE IS INEVITABLE, BUT NOT ALL CHANGE IS IMPROVEMENT.  ASK POLAND.  CHANGE THAT AMOUNTS TO LESSENING PRODUCT/SERVICE QUALITY SELDOM LEADS TO SUCCESS.   HOW WAS GM SAVED (AT LEAST FOR NOW)? QUALITY, QUALITY, QUALITY, AND THE BIG SHOTS WHO SAID NOTHING COULD BE DONE TO END THE ROT? GONE.  IMMEDIATELY.

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2.  Until the 1980's, there was no policy on gays.  Ben Love announced a policy (I do not know how that was decided but would imagine that the National Executive Board approved) in the 1980's that aligned with public sentiment at the time.  The decision soon came under attack.  Dale was an important decision and principle.  Retrospectively, the best course would have been to drop prohibitions on gays very soon rather than years after the decision.  Research studies have not shown an increased incidence in child sexual abuse in gays than heterosexuals and society had changed in its acceptance of gays.  Scouting does not adhere to any religious tradition so a quicker change would have been better.  So the appropriate decision though likely delayed more than would have been ideal.

THERE WAS A POLICY.  NOT WRITTEN BUT UNDERSTOOD: HOMOSEXUALITY WAS NOT "CLEAN."  THAT WAS THE NEAR UNANIMOUS OPINION OF SOCIETY UNTIL FAR MORE RECENTLY.

3.  That is not my experience in my local council.  Cannot comment on other councils.

4.  Who determines the recipients of those awards?  It is not the National Council but rather the local councils and usually the volunteers who make those determinations.  Some councils and districts across the country are more likely to be rigorous.

THE BSA SOLELY DETERMINES THE REQUIREMENTS AND KNOWINGLY ALLOWS THE REQUIREMENTS TO BE DISREGARDED. 

SOME COUNCIL PROFESSIONAL ARE MORE RIGOROUS, AS YOU SUGGEST.  BSA IS NOT.

A LARGE MINORITY OF COUNCIL CAMPS STATE ON THEIR WEBSITES THAT "CAMP X IS NOT A MERIT BADGE MILL."  WHY IS THAT NECESSARY?  WHY IS THERE EVEN AN ISSUE?  IF EVERY OTHER BUILDING IN A TOWN HAD A SIGN, "NOT A HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION," WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE TOWN.?  THE CAMPS THAT WARN AWAY THOSE EXPECTING A MERIT BADGE MILL ARE  YOUR "MORE RIGOROUS."  BUT THEY ARE, AGAIN,  A MINORITY LAST TIME I COUNTED (2016).  THIS SCANDAL IS AN "OPEN SECRET."

 IF VOLUNTEERS ARE NOT INCLINED TO FOLLOW THE RULES REGARDING REQUIREMENTS, THEY ARE IGNORED OR REMOVED.  THIS HAS HAPPENED TO THREE OF OUR COUNCIL ADVANCEMENT CHAIRS OUT OF THE LAST SEVEN.  THE OTHERS WENT ALONG, SOME GRINDING THEIR TEETH.  

EAGLES ARE UP 600-700% ACCORDING TO BSA.   BECAUSE THE YOUTH ARE THAT MUCH BETTER?   ADVANCEMENT BAUBLES ARE THE PARTY FAVORS THAT HELP DRIVE ATTENDANCE.  CAMP ATTENDANCE ($$$) IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN TRUSTWORTHY.

GUIDE TO ADVANCEMENT RULE 7.0.4.7 IS A MONUMENT TO A PROBLEM EASILY SORTED BY BSA AS IT DETERMINES WHO IS ELIGIBLE TO BE A COUNCIL EXECUTIVE.  "ANYONE CAUGHT RUNNING A MERIT BADGE MILL IS HISTORY, AND WE ARE LOOKING FOR THE FIRST EXAMPLES TO MAKE."

BSA COULD ALSO ENFORCE THE RULE THAT NO MB MAY BE OFFERED UNLESS AN ACTUAL REGISTERED MERIT BADGE COUNSELOR- 18 OR OLDER BY RULE -  HAS BEEN RECRUITED FOR EVERY WEEK THAT MERIT BADGE IS OFFERED.  THOSE OF US WHO HAVE GONE TO SUMMER CAMP FIFTY AND MORE SUMMERS KNOW THAT ACTUAL REGISTERED MERIT BADGE COUNSELORS ARE RARE COMPARED TO YOUTH STAFF WHO ACTUALLY "TEACH THE SESSIONS" AND DECIDE WHO GETS (NOT EARNS) THE BADGES.  BUT NOW WE "VISIT" RATHER THAN INSPECT AND THE "A" FLAG IS OFTEN MEANINGLESS.  I WAS AT CAMP ALL SEVEN WEEKS IN 2017, RUNNING SCOUTMASTER TRAINING AND THERE WAS NEVER MORE THAN ONE - 1 - ACTUAL MERIT BADGE COUNSELOR ON THE PROPERTY FOR ALL FIVE DAYS. SOME DAYS THERE WERE TWO.  ONCE THERE WERE THREE.   NEVERTHELESS, OVER NINETY MERIT BADGES WERE "OFFERED."

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5.  Those problems were decades ago and have been addressed by measures to prevent the fraud.  That is why volunteers in the units must sign off on all members - adult and youth. 

THOSE PROBLEMS HAVE LASTED DECADES.  OUR COUNCIL, ONE SE AGO, TOOK A 30% MEMBERSHIP HIT IN ONE YEAR BECAUSE THE NEW SE WAS TRUSTWORTHY ABOUT THAT ISSUE. AND HE WOULD NOT COOK THE BOOKS.  HE IS FONDLY REMEMBERED FOR THAT.

6.  Volunteers DO run Scouting.  They chair all national committees, are the only people who can vote, make all policies, make all program changes, determine budgets, etc.  Volunteers run the BSA.  Many or perhaps most are currently volunteering at the local level or did so in the last few years.

PLEASE.  NONSENSE.  SCOUTERS IN WILKES BARRE WHO OBJECTED OVER CAMPING TRUST FUND MONEY BEING DIVERTED TO MEET PAYROLL CONTRARY TO THE TERMS OF THE TRUST, INCLUDING A FIFTY-YEAR VOLUNTEER, EAGLE SCOUT AND CHAIRMAN OF THE CAMPING COMMITTEE, WERE BANNED FROM SCOUTING AND NATIONAL BACKED THE LOCAL CRIMINALS.  HE LEFT SCOUTING.  

WANT MORE EXAMPLES?   I WAS  A MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL EXECUTIVE BOARD.  IN MY THIRD YEAR, WITH MY DISTRICT LEADING THE COUNCIL IN EVERY METRIC,MOST DEFINITELY  INCLUDING FOS, I HAD THE TEMERITY TO SUGGEST AT THE ANNUAL BUDGET MEETING THAT WE BUDGET A "NOMINAL AMOUNT" TO IMPROVE DRAINAGE BECAUSE SO MANY OF OUR SITES WERE DISHED OUT AFTER THIRTY YEARS OF USE AND HAD STANDING WATER WHEN IT RAINED.  THINK: TENTS - STANDING WATER.  AND THIS IS OHIO, NOT ARIZONA.   I OPINED THAT WE  NEEDED TO  PROVIDE A BASIS TO SAY WE HAD STARTED ON SOMETHING PROMISED ANNUALLY FOR SEVENTEEN YEARS.  THE "COUNCIL PRESIDENT" THOUGHT THAT WAS A GOOD IDEA AND  CALLED FOR A MOTION  BUDGETING  A PIDDLING $2000 OF CAPITAL FUNDS TO IMPROVE DRAINAGE,.  (WE HAD AMPLE CAPITAL MONEY BUT, IT DEVELOPS WERE RUNNING IN THE RED ON OPERATING EXPENSES, AND CAPITAL MONEY WAS BEING RAIDED -  STILL RUNNING NINE MONTHS IN DEFAULT ON BILLS ON AVERAGE - NOT ALLOWED, BUT THERE IT IS.  I SIGNED THE LETTER WARNING TELEPHONE SERVICE WOULD BE CUT IN TEN DAYS IF "PAYMENT ARRANGEMENTS" WERE NOT MADE.  ELECTRIC AND GAS WERE IN THE SAME SHAPE.)  THE MOTION WAS MADE AND SECONDED BY MANY.  IT PASSED BY A UNANIMOUS VOICE VOTE.  AT THE END OF THE YEAR, HE AND  I FOUND OURSELVES NO LONGER NEEDED IN ANY CAPACITY ABOVE THE UNIT LEVEL, IN MY CASE FOR THE NEXT FOURTEEN YEARS, DESPITE THE SE's REMOVAL IN ONLY SIX YEARS WHEN THE AUDITORS ARRIVED (THOU SHALT NOT OPERATE IN THE RED AND THE MEMBERSHIP NUMBERS WERE WAY OFF. [LOTS OF TROOPS WITH EXACTLY THREE IMAGINARY ADULTS AND FIVE IMAGINARY SCOUTS.])  (I SAT ON AN EAGLE BOARD FOR A SCOUT WHOSE TROOP HAD NOT MET IN FOUR YEARS AND WAS, FINALLY, OUT OF CHARTER.  YES, "HOW?")  I WAS ONLY CONTACTED DURING THAT PERIOD TO CONTINUE MY GENEROUS FOS CONTRIBUTIONS.  THROUGH VOLUNTEERS,  I  HELPED WITH DISTRICT TRAINING WITH MY NAME OMITTED FROM THE PHONY REPORTS THAT LIST STAFF AS "PARTICIPANTS" TO PAD THE TRAINING NUMBERS.  THEN, HAPPILY, THE SECOND SUCCEEDING SE CALLED ME PERSONALLY TO ASK FOR MONEY, HE ASKED, IN PASSING, WHY I WAS NO LONGER ACTIVE OUTSIDE MY TROOP, GIVEN MY PRIOR SERVICE, DAM AND SB, AND ALL THAT.  THAT CONVERSATION LED TO MY BEING LET BACK IN, UNTIL THE SM OF OUR TROOP, ALERTED BY A PATROL LEADER,  7.0.4.7'D A PIONEERING MB FOR A SCOUT WHO LITERALLY COULD NOT TIE A SQUARE KNOT AND RESPONDED "WHAT PROJECT" WHEN THE SM QUERIED HIM ON A TIP FROM HIS PL.  HE HAD SHOWED UP WITH A SIGNED BLUE CARD AFTER ONLY FOUR DAYS AT CAMP. TURNED OUT THE THE OLDEST "SCOUT CRAFT" STAFFER  WAS SIXTEEN.   THE  PIONEERING "COUNSELOR" WAS FIFTEEN.  AS I HAD ASKED ABOUT MERIT BADGE COUNSELORS  WHEN SHOWING UP TO HELP IN THE "SCOUT CRAFT" AREA, IT WAS ASSUMED I HAD 'RATTED" ON THE COUNSEL ("RATTED" WAS THE WORD FOR MY ASSUMED TELLING MY SM THE TRUTH.), AND I WAS BACK ON THE BLACK LIST.  WHEN THAT SE TRANSFERRED, AND THEN WAS FIRED FOR FAKING MEMBERSHIP ( BEFORE "TALKING" TO BSA AND SOMEHOW BECOMING  THE SE OF A VERY LARGE COUNCIL), I WAS STILL REGARDED AS "RADIOACTIVE" PER PROFESSIONALS WHO WOULD STILL TALK TO ME.   SO I SOLDIER ON WHERE I AM ALLOWED.

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7.  This is a very complex and delicate subject that I shall not comment upon at this time.

PERHAPS BSA COULD COHERENTLY COMMENT ONCE.  THAT WOULD BE "SOUND."

8.  The BSA felt that the SE should be the reporter of YP issues.  That was shown to be a faulty policy as some states had begun making mandated reporter laws that meant that those who first find an indication are required to report.  The BSA changed the training to reflect that.  This happened as laws were being promulgated so was the appropriate action.

 

The BSA has not always made the best decision when viewed retrospectively, but the actions were taken with the best intentions by successful men and women who carefully considered all the evidence and made the best decision at the time.  They are good people how are intelligent, successful, and very dedicated to Scouting.  They are volunteers who love Scouting just as do we.

"SUCCESSFUL"?  BSA LEADERSHIP IS "SUCCESSFUL" BY WHAT MEASURABLE STANDARD?  LET'S PRETEND THEY ARE ACTUALLY ACCOUNTABLE" - HAD TO WRITE THE TICKET WE SAY THAT WE REQUIRE OF WOOD BADGE "PARTICIPANTS."   I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A "TICKET" FOR THOSE BIG SHOTS AT NATIONAL WHO HAD A BIG PUSH ON FOR LATINO SCOUTS BUT SENT ONLY ENGLISH-SPEAKERS TO MEET WITH THE ADUTS IN THE BARRIO.  I KNOW WHAT TICO THOUGHT OF THAT, BEFORE HE QUIT IN FRUSTRATION.  HE HAD BEEN A MANAGING PARTNER IN A BIG LAW FIRM, AND WAS STUNNED BY THE INEPTITUDE.  AS A VOLUNTEER, HE WAS ANOTHER OF THE "MERE" CLASS TO MANY "PROFESSIONALS."

WHILE YOUR AT IT COMMENT ON THE "SOUNDNESS" OF HAVING NO EMERGENCY PLAN FOR VIOLENT WEATHER AT THE 1985 JAMBO IN TIDEWATER VIRGINIA IN AUGUST.  NO CHANCE OF VIOLENT WEATHER THERE. 0___0

OR DISH-WASHING METHODS THAT VIOLATED STATE HEALTH LAWS IN ALL FIFTY STATES,  AND THAT STAYED IN PLACE TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AFTER THE VIRGINA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH TOLD BSA, IN MY PRESENCE, TO CHANGE ITS TWO-TUB METHOD TO WASH, RINSE, STERILIZE OR GET SHUT DOWN.  THIS WAS A NEEDLESS SCANDAL AS THE "PROFESSIONALS" HAD BEEN WARNED BY A MERE WITH A PHD IN MICROBIOLOGY AND A SECOND PHD IN PUBLIC HEALTH, LATER A DEPARTMENT HEAD AT WHO,  BUT HE WAS A MERE,  SO, HE WAS IGNORED, UNTIL THE FORT HOSPITAL FILLED WITH DYSENTERY CASES, AND THE VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH  DESCENDED IN NO MOOD TO BE TOLD THEY HAD NO AUTHORITY ("YOU CAN'T TELL US HOW TO WASH DISHED.").  SOME NAVY DOCTORS (WOOL DRESS UNIFORMS IN THAT STEAM BATH!)  OTHER MERES, CONVINCED THOSE IN CHANGE THAT THE EVENT PERMIT COULD BE PULLED VERY QUICKLY; THIRD TUBS WERE DISTRIBUTED (WITH NO INSTRUCTION); AND THE JAMBO LURCHED ON. "SOUND" ?

OR COERCING MILITARY PERSONNEL TO BRUSH-HOG FIELDS OF POISON SUMAC FOR TENT CAMP SITES.  OH, THAT WORKED WELL. 0___0   AND THE FOOD DISTRIBUTION WAS NOT ADJUSTED FOR THREE DAYS, LEADING TO WILD NIGHTS AT THE COMMISSARY  IN OUR SUBCAMP WITH 800 EXTRA MOUTHS TO FEED.  GOOD THING THE TRUCK OF WATERMELONS FOR NATIONAL STAFF ENDED UP AT OUR "DOOR" AT 3AM, WITH THE DRIVER JUST BEGGING FOR SOMEONE, ANYONE, TO TAKE DELIVERY.  WE TRADING WATERMELON FOR OTHER FOOD TO FEED THE KIDS. BIG INVESTIGATION WAS GRIST FOR THE LAUGH MACHINE.  STAFF LOST THEIR WATERMELON; KIDS GOT FED., THANKS TO THE MERES.

SOME OF THE FINEST PEOPLE AND  SCOUTERS I HAVE KNOWN WERE SCOUTING  EMPLOYEES, EVEN A DEPARTMENT HEAD AT NATIONAL.  SOME HAD MORE HORROR STORIES THAN I HAD EVER IMAGINED, SOME OF WHICH I HEARD ONLY AFTER THEY RETIRED OR QUIT.  I NEVER ASKED, AS SUCH.  THE RECOLLECTIONS JUST CAME OUT IN CONVERSATIONS. "YOU WERE AT A.P. HILL IN '85?"

EVER HEAR ABOUT "PROFESSIONALS" SITING A JAMBO IN THE BOTTOM OF A BOWL WITH NO DRAINAGE, EVEN WHEN PARK EMPLOYEES TOLD THEM IT WAS A BAD IDEA?  IN PA.  IN SUMMER.  ASK ABOUT MORE-RAIN.  "SOUND."  HA!

Yes.  I found this thread searching for information on BSA policy towards Deists."  Someone else might find it.

25 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The leadership of the BSA is largely center with most leaning to the right rather than the left.  They have many volunteers at the national level still working on the unit level.

The realities that the National Executive Committee and National Executive Board must address often dictates decisions.  For example, the BSA had no policy on transgender Scouts prior to a couple of years ago.  At that time, there was a sudden attention paid to transgender youth in the country.  The reality was that at that time 16 states allowed parents to change a child's gender at any time and they were protected by the state constitutions.  If the BSA did not accept transgender youth, then in those 16 states any lawsuits would almost assuredly be successful in forcing the BSA to do so.  Such suits would be costly and the BSA would be negatively portrayed in the media as discriminating against children.  There was only one viable option which was the path taken.  Personally, I believe that it was the correct one for many reasons including doing what was best for the child.

The PhDs that I know in Scouting are all involved or have been involved in the last few years on the unit level.

The leadership of the BSA has been and is sound but the current perfect storm of covid-19 and Chapter 11 is a major challenge.

1. "Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America

June 2019     © Boy Scouts of America

...

Section 3. That the purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which are now in common use by Boy Scouts [1915 language readopted in 2019]."

So was it "sound" for BSA to pursue increasingly different purposes?

2. BSA fought for years and won the right, good or bad, to assert its  view of "Timeless Values] by excluding gay persons, then relatively quickly abandoned that position for stated reasons that applied equally when they were fighting admission of gays.  Was that "sound."?

3. BSA is driven almost solely by raising money to meet payroll - 97% of the expenditures in my council, making corporate donors more important than almost any number of Scout parents.   Yes an opinion, based on observation, experience, documents, and admissions by "professionals."  My council has turned down $millions because it would have been restricted to supporting program, such as by improving and maintaining camps.  The council laid off it's VERY successful capital program professional because the $millions she raised could not be used for payroll.   Is it "sound" not to make program - product - of highest priority?  

4. BSA consciously allows awards to be given on a massive scale regardless of whether they have been earned or not.  What message does this behavior send to youth?  Is it '"sound" not to be "trustworthy"?  

5.  BSA "professionals" have repeatedly falsified membership numbers, leading to criminal investigations and convictions ("FBI called in as 'ghost' scouts boost numbers - and funds.") My councils first Scout Exectutive was merely fired for doing tthat, as was the Scout Executive I inherited when I rejoined in 1981.  Then there is "In School Scouting, which one of our Scout Executives candidly called a "Scam." "Sound"?

6.  BSA says volunteers run Scouting.  That statement is disingenuous at best. "Sound" ?

7. The BSA position on "Reverent" is claimed to be very important, yet, in practice, BSA acts inconsistently.  Some theists are excluded because they worship the wrong God or gods. 

It is said that one must believe in  God - not "a" higher authority but "the" higher authority, and are to be excluded if you do not so believe;  yet, some atheists, mainly Buddhists, but also non-theist Unitarians,  have been allowed in BSA, the Buddhist continuously for generations, and their religious awards are recognized by BSA.  Other atheists, such as Humanists,  are excluded.   On October 21, 2003, Greg Shields, a national spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America, statement to  Fox News, said:  "The Boy Scouts are not a religious organization. We cannot be described as a religious organization or a religion." Yes, that was wildly inconsistent with BSA's position in court papers in prior law suits. E.g.: "Although Boy Scouts of America is not a religious sect, it is religious, and, while the local council is not a house of worship like a church or a synagogue, it is a religious organization."   E. g.: "Bill, I don't think you or the Boy Scouts have anything to apologize for. The Boy Scouts are proud to be an organization of people who believe in God." ( George Davidson, lead counsel of record, Boy Scouts of America v. Dale.)   

Is it "sound" to "double-talk" an "important" issue?

8. YPT   The first version of on-line training commanded that reports of "incidents" be made solely to your Scout Executive.  I, and I am sure many others, pointed out that the law was otherwise, and the commandment changed.  But how could any "sound" leader require such a indefensible practice in the first instance?

These have been tough times for most volunteer organizations.  That makes sound leadership critical.  

On 1/14/2004 at 2:50 PM, evmori said:

What OGE said!

 

Atheists cannot be members of the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

Hard for some Christians to grasp. but Buddhists are literally atheists - persons who do not believe in a creator deity of any kind . They have been members of the BSA since at least 1926, and their religious awards are recognized by BSA.

On 3/27/2020 at 11:49 AM, ANEagle20 said:

I tried to solicit funds to purchase new color guard equipment for my unit, and the council had a problem with it. I asked national for a grant, and they said they don't give grants to individual units, I asked my council for a grant, and they said they wouldn't give me the money basically because they didn't feel like it was important. How the heck are we supposed to get the funds for this kind of stuff. because setting up fundraisers for anything in my council is a pain because they always want their "fair" share instead of letting the units have it. It is the dumbest thing ever. Like if I were to go and solicit funds what could they possibly do to me. 

You are ignoring the fundamental purpose of BSA - meeting payroll.

I find it hard to believe that boys, at least,  no longer like to play games.  BSA abandoned Scouting the game decades ago.

Writing about behaviors and motivation of the living is rarely "history."  

Dark v-shaped  flying things are hovering over Scouting.   

With all the changes, what is Scouting's political "base"?

More?

Lots of stuff out there to learn.

I was a Scout starting in 1953.  A "Neighborhood Patrol" camped with us a couple of times so they could experience patrol competition.

Turns out  "Neighborhood patrols" were chartered into 1969 at least:

No sponsor

No Committee

"Scoutmaster is selected by three fathers from the community."

As few as two boys

"NEIGHBORHOOD PATROL: a small neighborhood group of from 2 to 8 Scouts may be organized as a 'Neighborhood Patrol."   A Neighborhood Patrol requires no sponsorship. Three fathers in the community must approve the Scoutmaster.  Meetings are held in homes or other suitable places as often as the membership desires to meet."  Boy's Life, June, 1938, at p. 27.  Gettysburg Times  June 12, 1940:

13. Enlist and train a boy as a Tenderfoot for his own or any other Troop, Tribe, or Neighborhood Patrol, or as a Lone Scout; or enlist and train a boy as a Bobcat in a Cub Pack, or as a Lone Cub. OR If such enlistment is impossible because of Local conditions, train another Scout in at least three Second Class requirements involving Scout Skills." First Class Requirement September 1944 until June 1948

  SEE "WANTS TO START SOMETHING."

Be sure to let me know if you want more examples.

More information.

http://www.troop162nh.org/about/history

https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20150601/NEWS/150609905

https://chestofbooks.com/outdoors/scouts/Rural-Boys/The-Neighborhood-Patrol-Budget-Plan.html

https://goreadingberks.com/history-of-holy-guardian-angels-boy-scouts-of-america-troop-161/

https://prezi.com/dieoyh11ywrh/boy-scout-troop-700/

See Dr. Briscoe's fouth paragraph: https://oa-bsa.org/history/arrowmans-profile-desegregation-oa

With the adoption of the Patrol Method, troops were way to support patrol programming.  Patrols could be individually chartered onto the 1960s.  With the demise of Scouting, that has changed.