TAHAWK

40 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

I am only 66 years old but have seen much technology come and go...my Mom's 78s, 33s, 45s, cassettes, 8-tracks, LaserDisks, CDs, DVDs, iPod, slide rules, adding machines, Burroughs calculators, desktop calculators, My first "pocket calculator" was a Royal with a corded stylus, 8 digit capacity (but only 4 at a time) with Nixie tube displays..  Thought we were rich when we could plunk down $129.99 for the TI SR-10 that would do exponents and square roots.  Can't even get a CD player in a new car anymore.  And the first Pulsar digital watch with red LED display.   I hate progress.  

 Brother, you may only hate change, rather than "progress."  100 yeasrs ago,  and today, if you had/have a "telephone" hoked up to copper wires and the power in the entire area went out, the telephone worked.  It had and has it's own power suppy - humongous wet cell batteries backed up by generators.  We had a power outage and lost telephone service for over a week December, 2020., due to our "modern," "advanced, "voice-over-internet digital service."  Moreover, Spectrum, the only supplier in our area, only takes a service call when your telephone works.  YES! They lold me, when I called from the library, to call again when my telephone worked.  Otherwise they cannot schedule a "service call."   We are in a cell "black hole" and only the one cable-based supplier is Spectrum.  This is progress? 

I was  told last year by the Director of the IRS Frenso Center that they use the first operating software post key-punch cards - the 1959 version of COBOL -  in 1960's computers.   Explains why they are the best part of two years behind - that and funding being cut 30% over the last ten years.   "And then the camel died."

"committed" = thinking about it for some undetermined time in the future; a possibility  E.g. putting insignia and uniform rules on line - BSA "committed" to that some years ago.  I was curious back thenwhen I was  teaching the "Uniforming" course at more than one "University fo Scouting."   I gave up waiting after eleven years had passed.  I even volunteered several professional writers to help, an offer not acknowledged in any way.   😐

6 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

I can see SOOOOO many problems with this. First, if you can couch it as a "gift" exempt from taxes, they would still have to declare it on their income taxes.

Second, secretly giving money to a council employees for their work would likely a) be considered tip income and not a gift b) a violation of their employment status as a council employee c) appear like a bribe and/or d) create an insane competition and/or animosity among council employees.

A gift is not income.   "Income" is a very important concept and there is lots of law defining it.  A true gift is not it.

Gifts are taxable to the giver by the Gift Tax to the extent that, for each of  2019 and 2020, he or she gave more than $15,000 to a single recipient.    A recipient can receive any total amount as gifts from multiple givers and have no tax liability.  But these have to be real gifts, not earned compensation.   No wink, wink, nod, nod stuff.  The reciepient cannot be required to do anything as a condition on receving the  gift.

If you gave $15,000 to A's spouse, and the spouse,  of his or her own free will, in turn gave it to A,  it is not taxable to anyone.  There cannot be an understanding that the spouse is a mere conduit.

"What happens, legally speaking, when a group of people get together and decide to perform some task without filing any legal paperwork or establishing any formal legal structure?

Whether they know it or not, they have formed an unincorporated association. “Unincorporated association" means an unincorporated group of two or more persons joined by mutual consent for a common lawful purpose, whether organized for profit or not.

Now, if the lawful purpose they’ve joined together to accomplish includes earning a profit, their association is automatically a partnership or joint venture for tax and most other legal purposes. For example, if two people get together and decide to operate a food truck, they’ve formed a partnership, even if they file no paperwork.

But, if the purpose for the association is to benefit the public some way, and does not include earning a profit, the association’s members have formed an unincorporated nonprofit association. People form nonprofit unincorporated associations all the time; often without being aware of it. For example, if you and several of your neighbors get together to help raise funds to keep your local library branch open, you’ve formed an unincorporated nonprofit association.

If an unincorporated association’s purpose is charitable, educational, and/or scientific in nature, it can qualify as a Section 501(c)(3) organization (also called a public charity). Contributions to Section 501(c)(3)s are tax deductible. If an unincorporated charitable nonprofit has less than $5,000 in annual revenues, it may function as a 501(c)(3) without applying for IRS recognition of its status. However, as a practical matter, it may be difficult to obtain contributions without an IRS determination letter officially recognizing the nonprofit as a Section 5010(c)(3) organization.

An association with over $5,000 in revenue must apply for recognition from the IRS by filing IRS Form 1023. It is not necessary for an unincorporated association to convert to a nonprofit corporation to obtain IRS recognition of its Section 510(c)(3) status. However, the association must adopt written bylaws or a constitution, and include it with its IRS application. It’s probably easier to form a nonprofit corporation than to adopt such bylaws or constitution.

The biggest drawback to the unincorporated nonprofit association, and the reason nonprofits often abandon this form in favor of a nonprofit corporation, is that it has no separate legal existence apart from its members. Because it is not respected as a separate legal entity, its members generally can be personally liable for its debts and liabilities. Some states, such as California, give some limited liability to nonprofit association members; but it’s not as good as the protection obtainable from a nonprofit corporation. Moreover, unless your state law contains an “enabling statute” granting such rights entities, an unincorporated association cannot hold or receive property, or sign contracts, in its own name.

Because of these limitations, nonprofit unincorporated associations are usually used to accomplish limited short-term goals, such as raising funds for a library. Nonprofits with long-term missions should usually incorporate." [emphasis added]

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-an-unincorporated-nonprofit-association.html

 

Our Area does training annually (probably not this Spring), including all "basic" and a wide range of "other" training.  Any Scouter is free to attend, but publicity could be better.

When I gave my FOS pitches, I always took our DE with me.  Most of the parents only saw a pleasant - appearing young man but aso saw the Commissioned Scouters present  smiling at him (reflecting their positive experiences).   That gave maning to my report on the hours he put in, units he helped form, and units he had helped survivie times of crisis.  We led the council all three yeasr in FOS donations, exceeding our "goal" each year.

PICTURE POSTED FROM IMGUR.  

 

[img]https://i.imgur.com/3up0W1K.png[/img]

Then it is well that volunteers plan and run program, and the closer they are to the untis, the more likely the program will serve unti needs.   And the youth sould be planning and leading, not council employees.

Adult planned and run program is like teaching a kid to ride a bike by having the kid to only sit in a chair and watch an adult ride the bike.  Scouting is allegedly "experiential learning" - includong the expoerience of leadership - no emphasized by being made a sprarate "AIM" of Scouting, rather than being a part of Citizenship.

 

"Guide"  "Enable" 

 

DAD, TEAM COACH, PITCHES SON'S LITTLE LEAGUE TEAM TO DISTRICT CROWN: " I HAD TO TAKE OVER; NONE OF THE BOYS COULD THROW STRIKES"

[img]https://i.imgur.com/3up0W1K.png[/img]

 

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Awww @MattR, the occasional rabbit hole is fine, right??

Council fees should help fund professionals who go out and recruit and train (or see that training is provided to) adult volunteers (Commissioners included) to run the program.

Tracing it backwards, bad program is usually a result of poor adult volunteerism, which is usually a result of a lack of recruiting/training by professionals, who get paid by the council fees...

I firmly believe, if the program was the focus, the fees and fundraising would fall into place with no issues.  That does not seem to be the mindset here (in this council)...

BAed on my experience in fourt councils over fifty years:  Professionals rarely train volunteers, except than one junior staffer on each WB course is typically an employee;  professionals rarely see that training takes place - the job of the Council Training Chair, and the Distict Training Chaor, when the "professionls" have not eliminated ditricts alltogether;  our current SE eliminated the majority of training time for volunteers even befor COVID;  "profesionals" do not run any program other than Summer Camp; "professionals" do run recruiting events.    In my principal council, they primailry run fund-raising, and they consume over 90% of the funds raised in the form of salary and benefits.  I was successful in FOS season because I pitched the crowd on the many hours the employees (once ) spent in forming units and intervening when they were in trouble.  I did NOT say the money was to "send a kid to camp," or "buy a kid a unifom," as I often heard.

We have gone from the partrol focus to the trrop focus to the council focus?  Youth learns leadership, self-reliance, democracy,  and responsibility how?  Is program an objective or a tool?

 

 

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes, and official pants come in three different materials, each with advantages and disadvantages, as @KYScouterbegins to point out.

Canvas, polyester microfiber, and polyester/wool blend are your choices.  Each material has its devotees. ...

And every different garment visible from some feet away: no "uniform."

On 12/16/2020 at 10:20 AM, fred8033 said:

I like how simple it looks.  I'm just concerned how much individual bling will need to be added.  World scouter crest.  Other items.  But that's me.  I like simple and functional ahead of flashy and decorative.

patrol medallion

position patch ?

troop numerals

rank patch

event patch (temprary insignia)

shulder loops?

council patch

international patch

possibly plus  2-3 more patches

BLING!

 

Reminds me of: "We learn from experience, and not all experience is good."

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as is BSA entitled to its contary opinion.   

Some opinions are, of course, hard to believe.  

I wonder if the public schools will require adult "presence" for the student's daily"front country" hikes - to and from school throyugh rea far more dangerous than the "back country."  They REQUIRE the children to attend.  FBI statistcs indicate the children are safer going to and from school than they are once at home.  Most child molestation is by "family."  Were "bangers" up and about earlier in the day, those statistics might change.

WOOD BAge claims to "Model" the Patrol Method.  😝

"7. Have a representative attend at least three patrol leaders' council meetings."

 

Where the Supreme Master tells you what you will be doing in future?

He had taken no training" "All you need is to like kids." 

 

Every Scout who stayed to 18 got Eagle.  That was his promise to the parents  (I heard it made three times.) - even if that meant the SM signing him off for half a dozen Merit Bages the last day and Let's pretend holding POR.    I must say, he seemed to be enjoying himself.  😐

18 minutes ago, MattR said:

@InquisitiveScouter, I replaced your video with a link, to keep in line with the rules. If you'd like to put in more description of important points that you saw in the 2 hr video I can help you put them in.

As for the other reported post I saw, I think you're all doing better but let's remember, this isn't in the politics sub forum.

As for letting the scouts do their thing, I must admit that my absolute best memories as a scout and as an adult is from scouts doing the right thing on their own without any adults around, other than the adults reminding the scouts they owned the situation, so don't screw up. The trust had to be there, on both sides. The 30 & 2 scenario, given the right scouts, the right training and trust, I could certainly see. But if you were to select 30 random scouts from my troop as SM, likely not. But I gave 8 scouts and no adults permission to do some things on their own. I just don't know how you write a simple rule that explains this. I think it came from several years of watching scouts and just knowing who I could trust and who I couldn't, along with the fact that irrespective of the number of adults I was ultimately responsible for up to 70 scouts. There were plenty of adults that didn't want that responsibility, either.

 

The "simple" (if complicated) rule was embodied in: "with the Scoutmaster's approval."  Now, officially, the Scoutmaster is not trusted with the discretion

3 hours ago, yknot said:

You have loaded an awful lot of things onto the backs of the suppositional 3rd or 4th adults along on this imaginary outing we're talking about. If I'm reading you right, you are saying that having an extra adult or two turns a scout outing with 20 or 30 kids into a risk desert?  That 20 or 30 kids will somehow not find something risky to do? You're saying that having "an heir and a spare" along is contributory to youth anxiety? 

I don't know how to interpret opinions like yours -- and I've read similar ones elsewhere on this site. I don't know  where the resentment towards adequate adult supervision comes from. I can recall many conflicts and sometimes it was blatant parental interference and sometimes it was leadership negligence rightfully being called out -- like setting up camp under deadfall in a windstorm. 

I also cannot follow your logic regarding BSA. To most of the public, scouts is a generic term. They hear or see someone doing something questionable, and their reaction is  -- Well,  there they go again...  They don't know or care whether you are part of BSA or not, they just know you are "a scout."

I can only try. 

The experience of,  let us say "some," is that the presence of adults tends to foster a reduction in youth taking, or being allowed to take, responsibility. This is  a reduction in the amount of  Scouting taking place.  Hence, for the first 80+ years of the BSA version of Scouting, a patrol of Scouts could go on a hike, preappreoved by the SM, to be sure,  without any adults being "present."   I have not knowingly witnessed adult presence causing "anxiety," but I miss things. (There was the drunken father at Summer Camp, but that was unrelated to numbers of adults present.)

This experience was reduced, towards the end of Boy Scouting, to adult-free day activites only in the "front county." 

Noting this latest, and revolutionary, change is not a matter of "resentment."  The "risk management" folk at BSA,  tucked in their "bubble" and clueless as to what "Scouting" is supposed to be, were destroying Scouting to help save it from rapacious personal injury lawyers. I didn't resent the changes at all, hoping that the potential baleful influence of adult presence could be mitigated by training adults that "Scouting" is a youth-led program, with adults "leading" indirectly through coaching, mentoring, and offering themelves as resources. 

But BSA began demphasizing Scouting decages ago in favor of what none of the giants of the first 75 years would even recognize - expressly stating that aduts are present to "supervise" the youth.  More like school than Scouting.  The retired head of training, nationally, told me in 2014 that this was less a matter of deliberate change of policy than BSA "misplacing Scouting."   As an Eagle son of an Eagle SM, and the father of two Eagle Scouters himself, he hoped to influence change by reintroducing the Patrol Method - Scouting -  to Scoutmaster basic training, after an abolute absence for thirteen years.  Alas, that was not to be.  I assume the big bosses could not even understand the points he advocated.  Bill Hillcourt? Who?

I am unaware of instances  of non-BSA "Scouts" doing "something questionable" since BSA acheived its virtual monopoly  of boys in Scouting in the early 1930a. but it surely has occurred.   Since 1-1-19, female "Scouts" in large number belong to separate  organizations.    The GSA was critcized by NBC for allowing Girl Scouts to march in the 2017 Presidential Inagural Parade, carrying United States Flags. - like the soon-to-be  extinct Boy Scouts, already anathema to the illiberal.  "Questionable" to some, like statutes of Lincoln.

3 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

Current JTE is a good start, but could use refinement as others noted. What is the process to update the JTE nationally?

1ST:  measure the things that BSA no longer cares about enough to actually do anything to promote them -"Scouting," esp, but not exclusively, the two most important official BSA "methods" long neglected:  Patrol Method; outdoor program.

2nd: have any competent person(s) assign points to things that should be measured to reflect progress to adequacy, which is a distant goal at present.  Opinions may legitimately differ as to alocation pf points

The following are not asigned points in JTE: but should be:

- patrol and troop leaders democratically elected by the Scouts;

- significant, separate, active patrol program, including outdoor program; led by respective PLs;

- instruction of skills and for advancement primarily in the patrol context;

- advancement requirements passed in the first instance primarily in the patrol context;

- every patrol member appointed by respective PL to a functioning job;

- Scouts democratically planning the program of the patrols and troop, not just being "involved" in some unspecified way; 

- SPL leading the troop-level program and the planning thereof.; and

- active troop outdoor program, including one long term camp, that may, but need not, include camping at council or BSA camps.  For troops not camping at all at pesent, and I know of several, goal for initial recognition level needs to be modest.

 

 

2 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

JTE "metrics" fail to  give any points for actually using the Patrol Method - not a decision or any leadership by Scouts is required.  Morteover, it does not give points for election of Scout leaders, so the adult-run troop method is AOK with "JTE."

It does not necessarily require a single actual outdoor activity, defining indoor activities as "camping" in the official Q&A.    So no outdoor program whatsoever is AOK with "JTE."

Wretched at best.

 

It does give points for fund-raising camping at a council summer camp.  Just not for any other outdoor activity.  Hike? Nah!  Bacjpack? Nope.  Weekend camp - in the out-of-doors?  Unnecessary for the "journey" to  "excellence."

 

They are just not very good at their jobs.

22 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I do like most of the JTE metrics...whoever designed those put some thought into it...

Wait...hold that thought...I'd better go review the new JTE stuff to re-confirm

JTE "metrics" fail to  give any points for actualluy using the Patrol Method - not a decision or any leadershipo by Scouts is required.  Morteover, it does not give points for election of Scout leaders, so the adult-run troop method is AOK with "JTE."

It does not necessarily require a single actual outdoor activity, defining indoor activities as "camping" in the official Q&A.    So no poutdoor program whatsoever is AOK with "JTE."

Wretched at best.

 

I have a hard time defining "adequate adult supervision" foir all situations without more details.  Then there's BSA's definityion, set out above - two registered Scouters, 21 or older per "scout activity: White water rafting?  Council camp?  "Lock in" to watch videos, as suggested by Journey to Mediocrity?   Those objecting may, of course, assume that their opinion is the requirement.  Instances of Joe's Scouting are hardly unique.  We have a curent thread where one unit is adding significantly to reequirements for Eagle.