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Posts posted by TAHAWK

  1. For all "Scout activites" except MBC meeting with candidates, two adults "presnet" at all times,  more recently two 21-or-older registered adults "present" at all times, again excpet for the MB counseling situations..  The "no one-on-one" is in addition to "two-deep.:.  Even if  "twodeep" cannot be one-on-one,  That leaves us with what "present" means, and that has been discussed here before. 


    One of the registered adults can be an Assistant Scoutmaster, but he only counts for one even if also serving as TC Advancement Chair.  😄

  2. 1 hour ago, yknot said:

    Okayyyy... but if the litmus test for YPT is two deep at all times no matter what then, being scouts, we have to "Be Prepared" to effect that, no? Also, the online Tour Plan has been gone for awhile but for a long time that stipulated 1:10 adults to scouts on any outing.  

    "BSA’s Tour and Activity Plan eliminated


    How does this change affect the safety of BSA outings?

    It doesn’t. The Scouting program, as contained in our handbooks and literature, integrates many safety features. But no policy or form will replace the review and vigilance of trusted adults and leaders at the point of program execution."


    SOURCE: BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/03/31/bsas-tour-and-activity-plan-eliminated/



    A national Learning for Life and Exploring Tour and Activity Plan is required for all posts/clubs/ groups traveling to areas 500 miles or more one way from home area or crossing national boundaries into the territory of other nations. This application should be submitted, typed or printed, to the local Learning for Life office for approval at least one month before your outing.


    Leadership and Youth Protection Training: (Learning for Life policy requires at least two adult leaders on all overnight trips and tours. Coed units must have both male and female leaders.) The adult leader in charge of this unit must be at least 21 years old and have completed Learning for Life or Exploring Youth Protection Training. ...


    At least one associate adult leader is required (minimum age 21)."

    SOURCE: Boy Scouts  of America, "Tour  and  Activity Plan" [for Learning for Life], 1-4-2021.


    "Adult Supervision Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings. There must be a registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over in every unit serving females. A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth. Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age-and program appropriate supervision must always be provided."


    SOURCE: Boy Scouts of America, Guide to Safe Scouting (2019) at p. 1 [emphasis added]; spelling error corrected].

  3. 11 hours ago, yknot said:

    Wow. YPT is pretty clear two adults always in BSA. Most youth activities do require two adults. I work with several worship houses in an interfaith council and all have youth protection policies that require two adults whenever children are present and the numbers of adults needed go up as the number of youth do and based on the activity. In the public educational environment, you cannot take youth on a field trip without a minimum of one adult per 3-4 children. There are some youth sports settings where a single coach with a team is OK but that is only because the field is ringed with parents and other officials. 


    YPT seemed very clear when the "two registered adults for every Scout activity" rule was announced.  When I specifically asked National if it were true that, as a Merit Badge Counselor, I need to have a second registered Scouter present when I met with a candidate, I was told any second adult "present" would do,>  This was  a change from the prior requirement only that the MBC not be "alone" with a candidate.  I then asked my council the same question and, is so often the case, they referred me to National.

    BSA G2A on line now reads (note "Notwithstanding"):

    " Counseling Sessions and Certifying Completion

    A youth member must not meet one-on-one with an adult. Sessions with counselors must take place in accordance with the Guide to Safe Scouting (www.scouting.org/ health-and-safety/gss/gss01). Notwithstanding the minimum leader requirements, age- and programappropriate supervision must always be provided. Youth should be encouraged to bring a buddy, such as a friend, parent, guardian, brother, sister, other relative— or, better yet, another Scout working on the same badge. If merit badge counseling includes any web-based interaction, it must be conducted in accordance with Recommended Merit Badge Process 1. The Scout develops an interest in a merit badge and may begin working on the requirements. 2. The Scout and unit leader discuss the Scout’s interest in the merit badge. 3. The unit leader signs a blue card and provides the Scout with at least one counselor contact. 4. The Scout contacts the counselor. 5. The counselor considers any work toward requirements completed prior to the initial discussion with the unit leader. 6. The Scout, the Scout’s buddy, and the counselor meet (often several times). 7. The Scout finishes the requirements. 8. The counselor approves completion. 9. The Scout returns the signed blue card to the unit leader, who signs the applicant record section of the blue card. 10. The unit leader gives the Scout the applicant record. 11. The unit reports completion of the merit badge. 12. The Scout receives the merit badge. GUIDE TO ADVANCEMENT | 49 BSA’s social media guidelines (www.scouting.org/ training/youth-protection). For example, always copy one or more authorized adults on email messages between counselors and Scouts."

    SOURCE: Boy Scouts of America, Guide to Advancement, at pp. 48-49 (2019)

    BSA also now says on its YPT website:


    "Youth Protection and Barriers to Abuse FAQs

    Adult Supervision

    Q:  The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings.  Does that include merit badge counseling? Fund-raising events?

    A. Yes. However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. This parent or legal guardian does not have to be a registered leader."

    SOURCE:  Boy Scouts of America https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/

    BSA frequently has trouble with clarity and/or consistency.



  4. 41 minutes ago, yknot said:

    Is your CO aware that you take 30 kids out with two adults? If something happens it's hard to defend under the legal definition of negligence and could leave you all exposed to liability because no other youth organization works that way. BSA itself no longer allows even small patrols to operate without at least two deep adult supervision what makes you think even larger groups would be OK? Relying on camp staffing to count towards numbers only relates if they are working with your unit and are in sight, not if they are randomly in residence somewhere in the general vicinity. 

    Your argument seems to assume something "bad" happened?  What? Tornado?  Automobile accident?  Lightning strike?  "Lost" a child?  Attcked a choild?  Wouldn't  the facts matter to how "hard" it is to defend the lawsuit?

    Two registered adults is the  BSA requirement - whatever the size of the group - unless its a Merit Badge an Counselor meeting a candidate, when   the "presence" of a second "adult" human being is the requirement.   

    The "legal definition" of "negligence" is vague and subjective.  If twenty registered adiults are preent and one of them strikes a child, injuring her, will it help that the nineteen others prseent did not stop the battery?  WIll it not be claimed that the attacking adult was "negligently" allowed to have access to the child who was struck?

    To what standard of alertness or attention must the additional aduklt(s) conform?

    You are proposing an even more drastic change in BSA policy - a change, given the ever-increasing shortage of registered adults - that would probably signficantly reduce BSA Scout activities, even on line - perhaps to none.

    Two teachers in every classroom?   

    Two adults at every interview of a child?

    Two adults at the counter of every store serving children?

    Two LEO's in every cruiser?

    Two nurses at every aid station?

    Two coaches at every "skull session"? 

    If we are to ignore availability, wouldn't three be even more "prudent"?   More?  

    Safer yet, no adults and no Scouting.






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  5. As noted above, "black lives matters" are words that apply to different groups and ideas. 

    There is no monolith.  There is not even a national organiation. The was a blacklivesmatter.com website that someone set up, but it does not wrok for me today ("This page isn’t working.")  There is a Black Lives MAtter Foundation, but baru=ious attroney's general have ordered it to cease solicitng funds on the grinds that is is not associated with Black Lives Matters, whatever is meant by that.  Confusing.

     In its rush to meet someone's ideas of expected social values, BSA failed to understand that and to explain what it was supporting.   

    Equally, if one "opposes" "black lives matter,"  it is not clear what is opposed.

    If Detective Harry Bosch declares, "“Everybody matters or nobody matters." he simultaniously emphatically supports some meanings of "black lives matter" but opposes others, likely the "should have been strangled in his mother's umbellical cord" part for sure.  

    Or we can call opinions we dislike "vile" and go on from there. 




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  6. Yes, MattR, I watched it all.  I only post links to videos I have watched 100%.  I think the issue of what to do to stop the death of our cities by social experiment is worth the time routinely devoted to half an NFL game.  YMMMV.


    Later in the video, they present suggestions for handling the drug and mental illness crises - other than letting addicts and mentally ill people do whatever they elect to do.  

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  7. Quote


    SEATTLE (KOMO) — KOMO News aired a 90-minute documentary Saturday evening examining the decay, chaos and business closures that have resulted from the drug culture that lives on in Seattle.


    Caption: 'Fight for the Soul of Seattle'


    KOMO News anchor/reporter Eric Johnson presented “The Fight for the Soul of Seattle,” a follow-up to 2019's “Seattle is Dying,” which debuted in March 2019. The original program has been viewed more than 10 million times across multiple platforms and was the recipient of an Edward R. Murrow Regional Award for documentary as well as a Northwest NATAS Emmy Award for Documentary.

    The new program will also re-air on Jan. 2, 2021 at 2:30 p.m. It can also be viewed on the KOMO-TV YouTube page by clicking here.

    During the documentary, KOMO News and Johnson examine the role of the Seattle City Council in allowing the situation to reach what many experts consider epidemic levels under the guise of a compassionate approach to people who suffer from substance addiction and who commit crimes to feed their habit.

    "The 'Fight for the Soul of Seattle' is an essay, really," Johnson said. "It's a stark, frank look at a philosophy that has taken hold in Seattle, and that I believe is destroying not only our city, but countless lives that are left to languish in misery all around us. The philosophy is this: Seattle no longer feels the need to stop anyone from doing anything. My hope is that the show doesn't become a political football. A blame game. An us-versus-them talking point that results in nothing but division."

    “Fight for the Soul of Seattle” documents the heartbreaking condition of people on the streets, and the crushing decisions Seattle entrepreneurs are forced to contemplate as their life savings and dreams are destroyed by theft, vandalism and a dwindling customer base. This documentary also explores potential bold solutions to treat those living on the streets and pair them with agencies and assistance that can provide a clear path away from the endless circle of addiction and crime.




    "Portland rang in the new year with a riot — as vandals wreaked havoc throughout the Oregon city, tossing Molotov cocktails and attacking law enforcement with rocks and bricks, police said.

    The crowd convened around 7:45 p.m. near Chapman Square downtown, the heart of protests that raged in the city throughout 2020.

    Portland police said at least two Molotov cocktails were thrown and commercial-grade fireworks were launched at the federal courthouse and Justice Center, which some rioters attempted to break into.

    The crowd also set multiple fires and chucked rocks, bricks and frozen water bottles at officers from the Federal Protective Services and Multnomah County Sheriff’s Office. Some were struck by paint-filled balloons, which Portland police said may have been “laced with a caustic substance as it caused burning to the skin.”


    SOURCE: Washington Post.  Accord: The Hill; CBS; Daulycaller.com; Newsweek, MSN, and many others.  Not covered by  CNN.

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  9. We did videos on Boards of Review back when Scouts were trusted to do thm. We were lucky o have a day with years in community theater as a director. Still, it was trial and error.  The "final" version proved not to be as good as the fourth "final" - "Thorns and Roses.  The bad example, with the victim slding under the table and putting up a small whote flag was well reveived.  It made the "roses" part more understandable.  In a year, BSA decided adults must do it.  Turns out, we needed to show the adults the same video.  

    Why didn''t we do a PLC?  Should have.   We used to invite Scouts and Scouters from other troops to watch our PLC meetings.  Many of the Scouters were amazed to see the SPL run the meeting, and they questioned it in meeting with us after the PLC.  "Isn't it mean to expect a kid to carry so much responsibility?"

    As noted above, a big part of SPL development and success is ongoing counciling and coaching from the SM - indirect leadership  There is some "charisma" involved in successful leadership but also some quite teachable skills.  

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  10. 3 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

    I was in an Explorer post when the first girls joined.  We were "Explorers", and the organization was "Exploring"...which is all it said on our uniform shirts IIRC.  Our leaders were "Advisors" and I remember would be quick to correct anyone who called them "Scoutmaster."

    Oh to be young!  



    "1998- The Boy Scouts of America reorganized the Exploring program into the Learning for Life Exploring program and the new Venturing Division. Sea Exploring was placed in the Venturing Division and was renamed Sea Scouts."


  11. "Look at the wording, however. This is different and BSA acknowledged for decades that the would/could only use the terms "Scout" and "Scouting" in particular ways that did NOT include girls and did NOT impact GSUSA's rights to their trademarked terms."


    Source, beyond bare allegations?  You seems to assume that anything your side says must be accepted as true.


    Thanks for the Downvote.  I have seen three of those in 16 years here, and you own two. 


    Sometimes a knock is as good as a boost.

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  12. I brought  those facts up because they are material to the timliness of GSA's  claim to have  an enforceable claim to exclusing use of "Scouts" or "Scouting" in connection with a, program that includes girls.  

    That's the thing about litigation, the other side is allowed to present evicdence that refutes or blocks your claims.  Both sides get to participate.  That West wisely decided to stop try to block GSA use of  "Scouts" when President Hoover's wife became the head of GSA, does not effect BSA's right to continue, after fifty-teo years, to use those words  in connection with  co-ed program.  

    GSA seems clearly motivated not by concern for consumer confusion, but by an undrstandable concern for it's future.  As a former pre-divestiture "Bell Head," I have experienced the comfort of monopoly.  Competition is stressful. Tough cookies (really thick mints?)

  13. "We have had female "Explorer Scouts" since 1968 - 52 years of "sitting on their alleged rights" precludes success."

    "And BSA admitted it shouldn't do what it did to the Patent and Trademark Office. Or was BSA lying in 2004? Care to actually respond to GSUSA's argument? I'm honestly curious."


    Ah yes, "have you stopped beating your wife?"

    Your reference is unclear.  BSA admitted  that it should not have used the term "Exploer Scouts" starting in 1968 for a co-ed program or "Sea Scouts" somewhat later for another co-ed program?  Never heard that.  Source?

    And what happened, please, in 2004, that relates to the use of Exploerer Scouts or Sea Scouts, both co-ed programs of BSA for decades orior to 2004?

    In any case, a claim that such use was unlawful is time-barred because GSA did not attempt to enforce any such cliamed right in the dcades that followed.  A claim must be valid and timely, unless one can persuade politicians to change the rules after the fact.  

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    We have had female "Explorer Scouts" since 1968 - 52 years of "sitting on their alleged rights" precludes success.


    Sea Scouting, briefly Sea Exploring, became co-ed in 1972.  



    Trademark law is PRIMARILY intended to protect consumers from being misled about the party with whom they are dealing or whose product they are purchasing. 

    Encouraging competition is anothe policy of federal law.





    Hamm.  Pictures are not appearing.

  15. You are "noting" the GSA Complaint?

    I am noting the law and the facts known to anyone who cares to investigate that make GSA's  claims to property in "Scout," "Scouts" and ""Scouting"  wholly absurd. 

    It may come as a shock, but a court cmplaint is merely a "short and plain statement OF A CLAIM [=or claims]  FOR RELIEF -  accusations and alleged conclusions of law - mereargumenst having no evidentiary or legal weight whasoever except as admissions against the pleader. . 

    If you claim propety in a word, you must have acted "promptly" to prevent its misue.  BSA has used the words for a century or so before GSA made its claims to exclusive right. 

    Furethermore, the axiom for rights in such intellectual property is "First in time [of use[, first in right."  So GSA must have used the word sas an adjuctive in connection with programs for girls before BSA did.  In fact, BSA used all three words befor GSA even existed. 

    There were a few intances where councils wnet overboard in their enthusiasm  for the new revenue source, and spoke of "girl scouts" or used GSA art work.  This will not get GSA a judgment that it owns the terms at issue.  The provable wrongs are a tempest in a teapot. - primarily a bluff.  

    God and Satan have been sued for damages for causing,and/or allowing, evil in the World.   So what?

  16. On 12/26/2020 at 6:31 PM, TAHAWK said:

    BSA has, of course, used the title Scouting for its magazine for adults in Scouting - Scouts, Cubs, Explorers (co-ed for decades), Sea Scouts (co-ed for years) - for generations.  THus, BSA has used "Scouting"" in connection withmagazine for a co-ed program without objection by GSA for many years, precluding a valid claim of  intellectual property inflincement. 

    A critic.  Cool.  Where did you study and practice intellectual property law?  UCB Law and Stanford  Law are excellent.

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  17. 2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

    It wasn't super long after I earned eagle when Family Life rolled out. I just remember, as a Scout, being happy I wasn't affected. For Scouts, I just recall them working on it like other merit badges. No drama. 

    There was Citizenship in the Home for about twnety years, until 1972 IIRC.  IT was one of four "citizenship" merit badges, including the more corectly name "World Britherhood,: and any three were required for Eagle.  Twenty years later, "Family Life."  Much of a muchness. 

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  18. My troop as a boy was largely military dependents, a majority Marine "brats," sponsored by a United Methodist congregation located in the then very conservative Orange County, California.  It was far more diverse than the population of the area and represented almost all of the nations where we sent young soldiers after WWII..  Many were "halves": half Jpanese; half FIlpino; half German; half Chinese; half Korean; half-Iraqui; half Persian.; half Panamanian; half Italian. They were also what we call "Black";  Japanese; Mexican; and "White."  All the color variations of our common species, from divergent  cultures, including representatives from most  significant religions of the World., including Bahai, Muslim, Shinto, and Zoroastrian. 

    I have no idea, how Troop 43 became the troop for military dependents in our council, but it was.  I was part of the 25% minority who was not such.  But I was tolerated.  No doubt, the fact that my stepdad was a wounded veteran of "The War" helped.  One picked up  alot of military lingo to "fit in."  The floor was the "deck," for example.  The best was ""Ichiban,"  picked up in occpation duty in Japan or Okinawa.   

    Founded in 1908, Troop 43 had not started out  very diverse, although there were clerly Catholic boys from the first, but the old, curling B&W prints revealed that brown and yellow Scouts were showing up in increasing numbers in the 1920s, and "Black" Scouts, a small minoritty of the local popultion, began appearing  in the 1930's.  I joined with a wave of post-WW II dependents resultng from the  years after WW II when the young soldiers, sailors, Marines, and Airmen came back from "overseas" with their acquired wives and families.  and joined the "boomers' from the large miltary bases and defence industry that  had explosive growth in Southern California.  

    Our Assistant SM, later the SM, was a Marine Master Gunnery Sgt.  He tolerated "Black Marine" about as badly as "former Marine."  No such thing, just "Marine."  He told me once that joining the Marines just befor eturning 15 was a "fine thing," that taught him that "race" discrimination waa something I can't say here.  It sent him to China, "many lovely tropical islands, " Germany, Japan, Italy, and California - an odyessy for a Kansas farm boy.  

    I joined this  stew of folks, and just never thought much about the issue of "Integration." That was the way the "best troop in all the land" was.

     I did wonder at adult prejudice outside the troop family against our Japanese, and half-Japanese Scouts, but put it down to ignorance due to their lack of the regular esposure that I had with them in Scouting and in school.  My tent mate for two years was Toshi Nita, born in an Armerican concentration camp because he was at least 1/16th blood of Japanese-born ancestors.  He was easily that, because all his great grandparents were born in Japan.  We talked about his recollections of the camp, but not the racism or politics of it.   (Happily, as I was embarrassed by the whole topic.  My Mom, an "Abe" of Abraham Lincoln High School, [Look up Kenny Washington football.]  had explained that what we had done to our Japanese citizens was a great wrong, like slavery and "racial" discrimination - hating and fearing people of different colors and culture with out reference to the individual's qualities.  She was likely influenced by her father's experiences in WWI when all the Black mill workers in the factory joined as "Indians" to beat Woodrow Wilsons resegregation of the military.  Fighting together may not erase all prejudice, but it can.)  I remeber watching B&W TV with Grandpa and listening to a "joke" that implied that all Irish were drunks.  Grandpa made a growling sound and explained that, "Talking that way is bad and can lead to bad things.")  Tosihi., Sr. had volunteered for the Army from the camp and served and was wounded in Europe, so "Tosh" got a pass from the military dependents, evne the ones whose parents had fough in the Pacific. (Have you seen the scar on his calf.  Cool!)

    There were three segregated troops in our council, two all-Catholic and one all "White."  The first two were puzzling, since, like many other troops not sponsored by a CAtholic congregation, we had Catholic Scouts,  and the last troop seemed very strange indeed.   But, then, the hatred of the John Borch Society for Scouting was also part of the environment that made little sense.  (I just never felt like a "Communist dupe" when Trick-or-treating for Unicef and could not understand how the World Britherhood Merit Badge was an evil thing.)

    Troop 43, beyond being the best Troop ever, was probbaly far from "normal," but racially secregated troops were also far from normal in our area in the 1950s.  Your mileage may vary.




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