SSScout

Well, Nike is spot on about BSA's situation.

evmori doesn't see things as I do here, and maybe I can't convince him otherwise, however...

If my son's school has a class in "World's Religions", and requires the students to study and be knowledgeable about various faiths (no one in particular), that is not a religious organization.

If my son participates in his First Day School class and learns about his birth-right faith, which he may/maynot accept or reject ultimately, that's a religion.

If he joins a group that asks him to "do my duty to God" but does not define what that duty is (leaving it to the boy to decide that), that is , to my mind, a "religious" organization.

If he joined a group that asked him to "scrub the floor really well", but does not define how the floor should be scrubbed (leaving the methodology to the boy), then that organization is a volunteer cleaning club, not a cleaning company, which must meet gov't standards.

Howbout them Mudhens?

The whole shebang boils down to:

1) the BSA is a "religious" organization but NOT a religion.

2) Folks that join are reminded about this (a)with the not-so-fine print on the application and (b)with conversations with leaders and © the reciting of the Cub Scout Promise and the Scout Promise and the Scout Law and (d) various well publicized court cases and (e) by overly zealous folks that wish to make BSA one kind of "religious" organization rather than another (which the rest of us have to do damage control about).

3)Those that join and participate are, 99.9% self selecting. They participate because they agree with what is proposed and promulgated and said and written. When they don't agree, in my experience, they ask questions and then either find greater agreement or allow for the differences ("BSA isn't really Christian after all?") or say "no thanks" and move on.

We had a wonderful woman, good parent, talented teacher, sign up to help with CSDC. She read thru the Adult Application and talked to me about the DRP. She said they did not teach their kids anything about religion, that they (the parents) weren't about to cloud their kids mind with such mythology. It had never been a question for her when her son aasked to be a Cub in his friends Pack. I replied that was certainly their responsibility, that Scouts weren't about to tell them what to believe. She and her Cub participated that year, but she later told us she had to resign and withdraw from Scouts because she ultimately could not find agreement with the DRP on the application. And that's how it should work. We were sorry to see her and her son go, but there you are. At that point, it is the parents who decide.

4) Scouting attracts folks with questions and folks whose minds are already made up. Our District hosts Troops sponsored by Muslim Mosques, Jewish Synagogues, ultra-Catholic home schooling associations, Volunteer Fire Companies, PTAs, and service clubs like Kiwanis and American Legion. Some overtly REQUIRE a certain type of belief and some do not ask the first question about it. It is, as one Scouter told me at a R/T, "none of our damn business".

5) Certain social mores are active here. In my bus system, you pay the fare and our bus will take you along the route. You can't tell the driver to CHANGE the route, you can only ride the bus from the station to 5th and Main, not Cedar and North. If you want to go to Cedar and North, you either a) get out and walk or b) pay for a taxi or c) find another bus company or d) start your own bus company. Oh, I forgot, You can also petition the Transit service to change the routes and if enough people ask for the change, it could happen. But probably not tomorrow.

Howbout them Cowboys?

The BSA is a religious organization, by definition. But it is NOT a religion (contrary to how some Scouters may treat their activities!). We've been thru that before.

As to the PoA, it IS a requirement that a Cub Scout needs to KNOW the PoA, but it is NOT a requirement to recite it, if it is counter to their religious belief. I may know the tenets of Das Kapital, but that does not mean I agree with or support it. Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers, some Mennonite adherents, and other religions have qualms about repeating the PoA and back that up with their faith in a deity that requires them to not worship (pledge loyalty to?) a piece of cloth. This does not mean they do not show respect for the symbol of our nation, only that the saying of something they do not agree with ("trustworthy", frinstance, see also Mat 5:33, lJohn 5:21 and Ps 96:5) is not right.

Loyalty to country ("duty") has never correctly been defined as the mere reciting of any loyalty oath but as demonstrated by ones actions (or lack of?).

I have had very little conversation about anyone not reciting the PoA. It is a non-issue in my experience.

Thank you, Andy. It is for all boys who find agreement with Scoutings ideals and program. All food is for all boys, but squash is not for my son. So he says.

Thank you, Merlyn, for making us think, but there is no dancing in this one. Only a welcome lack of dogma and some understanding.

Ditto jet526. Cubs are not included in Scout watercraft activities except as G2SS allows. But Boy Scouts...

Ordinarily, Canoeing has to wait for summer camp. So:

Recruit one or more experienced adults as Canoeing Merit Badge Counselors. Include that in your canoeing program. If the boys have mastered the Canoeing MB, they are ready for medium rivers and ripples. Real white water is another thing again. Canoe rescue practice can be done in the community pool, with advance arrangements. Ask to use the pool way before regular hours and make sure the boats are CLEAN before you enter the pool. (!!measure to assure the boats will fit thru the doors!!)Red Cross does this all the time and other Scout units use the pool in our community thusly. For this I recommend leaving the aluminum boats at home and only bring the ABS boats. Don't bump the tile!

We have a lake nearby that is good for paddling practice, but it is part of the county's water supply, so no swimming allowed (no swamping on purpose!)

As the boys get experience, plan an overnight trip.

It's all down hill er, stream.

Check with the Cubs' school. See if there is a project that the boys could do, either individually together or as a team to benefit the school.

Bird houses and feeders in the courtyard.

Planter or bench out front.

Simple shelves outside the office.

Boxes for the boy's teachers.

MiF KiS YiS

I'm sorry. I guess I thought that was obvious.

"Barred from Cubs for not swearing allegiance to the Queen"

check out www.tubachristmas.com and the Harry Phillips Foundation.

So are actions more important than mere words?

Does the WAY we declare our loyalties (to God, Country, Queen (see other thread), truth, and/or

family and Community) matter more than how we DEMONSTRATE them?

**big sigh**

1) No tour permit is needed to go to a local store. Check mileage requirement in TP instructions.

2) Cubs selling P/C should always be accompanied by parents and/or adult leaders with parent permission. Door to door or to uncles or to friendly nieghborhood car garages.

3) I believe adults are encouraged to HELP sell p/c too, notably to business associates, office mates, grandmoms in Montana, church members, etc.

4) It would have been good manners and ettiquette to tell the p/c CC about your plans. Such an idea might even inspire others to go to other stores and thereby spread the gospel of p/c good nutrition.

5) I seem to remember reading about the champion CS p/c seller as being a Cub who went to a corporate CEO and persuaded him to buy umpteen thousand dollars of p/c for his company's use. This is bad?

6) I have seen local restaurants and other businesses with BS p/c "in stock" on the shelf behind the cash register. I should tell'em to put it UNDER the counter?

7) Shall we discuss the acceptance of unsolicited donations (" Hey, I loved being a Scout. I don't really want any overpriced pocorn, but here's $20. for your Cub Pack.") here or elsewhere?

There's a lot of unsold p/c out there.

KiS MiF YiS

Emb021:

Not quite true. I have a chart in front of me listing the members of the WOSM as of 2000.

I admit to not fully understanding the differences, but France has six seperate types of "Scoutisme Francais" listed and Denmark has five "Fallesradet for Danmarks Drengespejdere" for instance, and there are several other nations with what seem to be multiple seperate Scout organizations under their flag.

"when I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean...neither more nor less."

= Humpty Dumpty, in "Thru the Looking Glass"

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Hello? So the problems are 1) the definition of "enemy" and "sovereign" and 2) whether the DoI allows folks to remove the government they are unhappy with (so someone invented the democratic republican form to do it peacefully) and 3) NOT that we are asked to swear/promise/affirm to something publicly?

Howbout them Redskins?

Advanced Pioneering at the National Jamboree: Merry-go-Rounds, Tensegrity structures (Buckminster Fuller), et al...

http://fredericksburg.com/community/features/jamboree/

Any one else know any other pics of the Pioneering Area?

oops... forgot:

http://www.ushistory.org/documents/creed.htm

But Pack, we're not talking about closed, natural systems here. Not negative entropy, but CHOICE. Even Maxwell's Demon has choice. The coffee cup HAS to cool off, and approach equality with it's surroundings, but for the CHOICE of the demon, yes? The person has to CHOOSE to follow the GR. It is NOT a entropic thing. Tigers do not CHOOSE to be nice and encouraging to the waterbuffalo in front of it's hungry eyes. ("eat up and get fatter for me, ummmmm.").

So as Scouts we promise (?in an "oath"?) "On my honor..."

And we are asked , as citizens, to promise ("pledge"?) allegence to a piece of cloth and a nation...

And in some religions, one is expected to declare agreement with certain "beliefs" (the "Nicene Creed" comes to mind).

I would posit , for your perusal,

The American's Creed:

by William Tyler Page

I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.

I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.

Written 1917, accepted by the United States House of Representatives on April 3, 1918.

Differences? Needs? Obligations? Public declarations vs Loyalty Oaths?

Swearing BY something (the Bible?) versus AFFIRMING in court? Religious loyalty over legal authority?

And what might make a better National Anthem? "America the Beautiful"? "Stars and Stripes Forever"? (yeah, there are words) or the usual...

Rote memorization vs questioning and understanding...

OOOO my head hurts...

Why do we expect our children to learn one and not the other?

May I mention the name John Woolman (1720-1772). Went so far in his distaste for slavery that he would only wear undyed clothing. Seems the usual dye in those days were made by slave labor in the Caribean. His "Journal" is good, if slow going, reading.

Trev: Thank you.

Correction: It was late when I wrote that and I missed this: Make that 300 to 400 "Scouts... that had that 'problem' ". Decimals.

Scouting is used by some faiths as 1) basis of their youth ministry 2) an addendum to their total ministry or 3) an outreach to the greater community. I have met (altho it is rare) Scout charter sponsors who are rather proprietary about the Scout program, feeling that it is THEIR program and hence one MUST be of THEIR faith to join. When I point out that other faiths sponsor Scout units and other faiths CAN be Scouts, it sometimes is a head shaker for them.

It is true that some faith COs are specific in their membership requirements (see other threads) and they are within their rights to do so, but there are always less restrictive COs around. It is their loss when they limit their membership, but so be it. The BSA program is a model that others have copied and we know that such emulation is the highest form of compliment.

So to some BSA is TOO restrictive and to some BSA isn't restrictive enough. If our standard is the Scout Promise and the Scout Law, then we must continue to point out to our boys and girls what it is they are asked to agree to and hope our example is sufficient to activate their conscience.

So what is BSA about? Is it not inculcatating Self sufficiency, knowledge, confidence, skill in emergencies, the worth of cooperation, the need for leadership (however learned), all grounded and encouraged by a faith in a "higher power".

I can give thanks for coming back from an adventure whole and unhurt and I can also give thanks for the skill of my surgeon for setting my broken bone.

YiS

Outdoor and Adult stuff:::

Need ::: Paper Match Book, Straight pin , Aluminum foil, Big paper clips.

Cut out a small 2" by 2" piece of foil. Tear out a match. Place and hold straight pin on paper match so point is on match head and pin lies along paper stock. Carefully wrap foil around match and pin so match head is covered in two layers of foil and paper stock is only partially covered. Crimp around pin to make a channel. Carefully pull pin out. Make a Launch rack out of paper clip to hold up match rocket, head up, tail down. Angle about 45degrees up. Aim away from people, face, into open area outdoors. Light match and hold under rocket head. WHOOOOSH!

Make the "rocket"...

Take TP tube, or paper towel tube. decorate wih fins, etc. Bend paper clips appropriately and tape to tube. Stretch smooth strings the length of your room. Place a looong balloon in the rocket tube and blow it up. Hold on to the open end. Hook paper clips over the strings, aiming the rocket tubes down the string. Let go the open ends. Stand back.

Repeat as necessary.

*sigh*

The only reason to question a Scouts religious belief is because it seems to be REQUIRED during the Eagle process. Scouting has to be self selective, so faith is personal and an avowed athiest will have an automatic problem promising to "do my duty to God", unless he thinks that that duty ,for him at least, is to NOT believe in him/it/her.

I am again reminded of my time as a Chaplain at the 05Jamboree. I met at least 10 Scouts who had to tell me they "weren't sure about that God stuff." Extrapolating to my fellow chaplains, maybe 30 or 40 Scouts out of the 35,000 in attendance had that...problem. This is a problem? Everybody has to find their own place in this universe and accept/reject/invent a reason for existence.

"Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for

oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every

form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies

with every sect and denomination. What sect or

denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents'

wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect

their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence,

whatever form of religion the boy professes."

And BP's definition, I feel still rings true to me. I have no reason to force the issue, only to be available if the conversation turns that way.

At a local Camporee, Our Troop hosted a new Troop sponsored by a Muslim Mosque. The lunch table was the scene of some realy good conversations among the Scouts. It was rducational for all.

Don't we need a new category? "Religion and Chaplaincy" perhaps? *see another thread*.

Check with your DE. Parades are an ongoing possibility and it might be good to have an alternative ready for any Scout unit.

I agree with the bad aspects of candy throwing.

Adult leaders and Cubs can hand out Cub Scout labeled games or post cards with sports pictures on them or little game books (our council has big newsprint handouts with mazes and games in them,why not a smaller one?)

Have fun!

Like an uncle of mine usta say, there's nothin' like a good belt...

Seriously, seems like an improvement.

Speaking of unknown, inexperienced VPs,

Howbout that Harry Truman?? Uh Huh Uh???

Scouts come in all flavors.

I would make sure he gets all the opportunities he can. Not every Scout will LIKE or PARTICIPATE in every activity. That is his choice.

I think there are enough possibilities in Scouting to include your boy. Let him find his own level. Camping is a big part, but not the end-all be-all, surely.

My sympathy for your loss.

Ditto all the above "preventive" stuff. Have faith, like the folks previous have said, with a little media exposure, you will have lots of help replacing the lost material, and the thieves will have that much more trouble unlaoding the loot.

Near trailer::: Make sure to have it painted in bright colors " CUB SCOUT PACK XYZ, Sponsor Org, Town State, Wolf Badge " on all four sides. Paint, NOT decals or vynil (too easy to remove). (vinyl?)

Good Luck YiS