SSScout

Emb021:

Not quite true. I have a chart in front of me listing the members of the WOSM as of 2000.

I admit to not fully understanding the differences, but France has six seperate types of "Scoutisme Francais" listed and Denmark has five "Fallesradet for Danmarks Drengespejdere" for instance, and there are several other nations with what seem to be multiple seperate Scout organizations under their flag.

"when I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean...neither more nor less."

= Humpty Dumpty, in "Thru the Looking Glass"

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Hello? So the problems are 1) the definition of "enemy" and "sovereign" and 2) whether the DoI allows folks to remove the government they are unhappy with (so someone invented the democratic republican form to do it peacefully) and 3) NOT that we are asked to swear/promise/affirm to something publicly?

Howbout them Redskins?

Advanced Pioneering at the National Jamboree: Merry-go-Rounds, Tensegrity structures (Buckminster Fuller), et al...

http://fredericksburg.com/community/features/jamboree/

Any one else know any other pics of the Pioneering Area?

oops... forgot:

http://www.ushistory.org/documents/creed.htm

But Pack, we're not talking about closed, natural systems here. Not negative entropy, but CHOICE. Even Maxwell's Demon has choice. The coffee cup HAS to cool off, and approach equality with it's surroundings, but for the CHOICE of the demon, yes? The person has to CHOOSE to follow the GR. It is NOT a entropic thing. Tigers do not CHOOSE to be nice and encouraging to the waterbuffalo in front of it's hungry eyes. ("eat up and get fatter for me, ummmmm.").

So as Scouts we promise (?in an "oath"?) "On my honor..."

And we are asked , as citizens, to promise ("pledge"?) allegence to a piece of cloth and a nation...

And in some religions, one is expected to declare agreement with certain "beliefs" (the "Nicene Creed" comes to mind).

I would posit , for your perusal,

The American's Creed:

by William Tyler Page

I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.

I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.

Written 1917, accepted by the United States House of Representatives on April 3, 1918.

Differences? Needs? Obligations? Public declarations vs Loyalty Oaths?

Swearing BY something (the Bible?) versus AFFIRMING in court? Religious loyalty over legal authority?

And what might make a better National Anthem? "America the Beautiful"? "Stars and Stripes Forever"? (yeah, there are words) or the usual...

Rote memorization vs questioning and understanding...

OOOO my head hurts...

Why do we expect our children to learn one and not the other?

May I mention the name John Woolman (1720-1772). Went so far in his distaste for slavery that he would only wear undyed clothing. Seems the usual dye in those days were made by slave labor in the Caribean. His "Journal" is good, if slow going, reading.

Trev: Thank you.

Correction: It was late when I wrote that and I missed this: Make that 300 to 400 "Scouts... that had that 'problem' ". Decimals.

Scouting is used by some faiths as 1) basis of their youth ministry 2) an addendum to their total ministry or 3) an outreach to the greater community. I have met (altho it is rare) Scout charter sponsors who are rather proprietary about the Scout program, feeling that it is THEIR program and hence one MUST be of THEIR faith to join. When I point out that other faiths sponsor Scout units and other faiths CAN be Scouts, it sometimes is a head shaker for them.

It is true that some faith COs are specific in their membership requirements (see other threads) and they are within their rights to do so, but there are always less restrictive COs around. It is their loss when they limit their membership, but so be it. The BSA program is a model that others have copied and we know that such emulation is the highest form of compliment.

So to some BSA is TOO restrictive and to some BSA isn't restrictive enough. If our standard is the Scout Promise and the Scout Law, then we must continue to point out to our boys and girls what it is they are asked to agree to and hope our example is sufficient to activate their conscience.

So what is BSA about? Is it not inculcatating Self sufficiency, knowledge, confidence, skill in emergencies, the worth of cooperation, the need for leadership (however learned), all grounded and encouraged by a faith in a "higher power".

I can give thanks for coming back from an adventure whole and unhurt and I can also give thanks for the skill of my surgeon for setting my broken bone.

YiS

Outdoor and Adult stuff:::

Need ::: Paper Match Book, Straight pin , Aluminum foil, Big paper clips.

Cut out a small 2" by 2" piece of foil. Tear out a match. Place and hold straight pin on paper match so point is on match head and pin lies along paper stock. Carefully wrap foil around match and pin so match head is covered in two layers of foil and paper stock is only partially covered. Crimp around pin to make a channel. Carefully pull pin out. Make a Launch rack out of paper clip to hold up match rocket, head up, tail down. Angle about 45degrees up. Aim away from people, face, into open area outdoors. Light match and hold under rocket head. WHOOOOSH!

Make the "rocket"...

Take TP tube, or paper towel tube. decorate wih fins, etc. Bend paper clips appropriately and tape to tube. Stretch smooth strings the length of your room. Place a looong balloon in the rocket tube and blow it up. Hold on to the open end. Hook paper clips over the strings, aiming the rocket tubes down the string. Let go the open ends. Stand back.

Repeat as necessary.

*sigh*

The only reason to question a Scouts religious belief is because it seems to be REQUIRED during the Eagle process. Scouting has to be self selective, so faith is personal and an avowed athiest will have an automatic problem promising to "do my duty to God", unless he thinks that that duty ,for him at least, is to NOT believe in him/it/her.

I am again reminded of my time as a Chaplain at the 05Jamboree. I met at least 10 Scouts who had to tell me they "weren't sure about that God stuff." Extrapolating to my fellow chaplains, maybe 30 or 40 Scouts out of the 35,000 in attendance had that...problem. This is a problem? Everybody has to find their own place in this universe and accept/reject/invent a reason for existence.

"Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for

oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every

form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies

with every sect and denomination. What sect or

denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents'

wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect

their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence,

whatever form of religion the boy professes."

And BP's definition, I feel still rings true to me. I have no reason to force the issue, only to be available if the conversation turns that way.

At a local Camporee, Our Troop hosted a new Troop sponsored by a Muslim Mosque. The lunch table was the scene of some realy good conversations among the Scouts. It was rducational for all.

Don't we need a new category? "Religion and Chaplaincy" perhaps? *see another thread*.

Check with your DE. Parades are an ongoing possibility and it might be good to have an alternative ready for any Scout unit.

I agree with the bad aspects of candy throwing.

Adult leaders and Cubs can hand out Cub Scout labeled games or post cards with sports pictures on them or little game books (our council has big newsprint handouts with mazes and games in them,why not a smaller one?)

Have fun!

Like an uncle of mine usta say, there's nothin' like a good belt...

Seriously, seems like an improvement.

Speaking of unknown, inexperienced VPs,

Howbout that Harry Truman?? Uh Huh Uh???

Scouts come in all flavors.

I would make sure he gets all the opportunities he can. Not every Scout will LIKE or PARTICIPATE in every activity. That is his choice.

I think there are enough possibilities in Scouting to include your boy. Let him find his own level. Camping is a big part, but not the end-all be-all, surely.

My sympathy for your loss.

Ditto all the above "preventive" stuff. Have faith, like the folks previous have said, with a little media exposure, you will have lots of help replacing the lost material, and the thieves will have that much more trouble unlaoding the loot.

Near trailer::: Make sure to have it painted in bright colors " CUB SCOUT PACK XYZ, Sponsor Org, Town State, Wolf Badge " on all four sides. Paint, NOT decals or vynil (too easy to remove). (vinyl?)

Good Luck YiS

"wowser, (wows'-er), adj. obs. 1. Exemplary, marvelous, tending to be amazing; 2. Worthy of a young person's adulation or immediate attention; as in "thats a wowser of a helicopter, grandad, fer shur". See also Inspector Gadget. "

Yes, if one quality of a person is desirable (bullet 50 yard passes), then one can ignore other, less desirable qualities (knock up as many females of the species as possible).

Tonite, I will gain "personal experience".

It is the first Troop Committee Meeting of the year. We are a smallish troop (maybe 20 or so boys) and the dictum of 'the jobs get done by whoever shows up' is very true.

The idea here, originally, is to start planning and laying out the years activities and assigning adult leaders/sponsors for them. I suggested to son (SPL, brag) that he might want to call SM and ask to come to the Committee meeting to talk about what the boys might want to do. His response, "aw, they won't let us do them". But he eventually called SM and SM said "sure, bring your ideas". Son was surprised and said so.

So son and I have spoken about what Troop might do in the coming year. He often finds his 4H and Church youth group and camp more exciting and rewarding than Scouts. Altho I encourage his interest in the other things, I am dissappointed that he does not find more satisfaction from his Scout involvement. Too often, those schedules take precidence over Scout stuff.

Possibilities that son and I have discussed: attendance at Canandian Jamboree instead of regular summer camp, canoeing, horseback riding overnight, target shooting at local indoor range, more trail hiking/camping.

He also has a hard time believing that the other boys would be interested in some of his ideas, and he has reason to feel that way, judging from response to many of last years activities. But I tell him, he needs to put forth the things he would like to do. That all one can do is offer, if the SM and TCom support his ideas, then he can make it happen.

But it won't happen if he doesn't ask.

* I have a hard time rooting for anyone who is paid more per hour than I make in a year. They need MY support?

*I like to point to the Medivac helicopter pilots and paramedics that "entertain" by flying wowser 'copters AND save lives.

* College Ball is more exciting to me, anyhow. They seem to do the different, the riskier plays, they take chances in the tactics and strategy more than the pros.

* This guys car washing bill would buy a months worth of food for a village in Dafur.

Archery : history : skill : arrangements.

Check out:

http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/badminton/

YiS

Wow.

?2005? Anything new known?

Man, I will just do anything to avoid housework. And that was one of the things my wife said attracted her to me (my willingness to help with housework, not my desire to avoid it).

When a thread becomes a hawser so quickly and consistantly, I tend to wait to read thru the history.

I think kudu sees a trend and BW sees an improvement. The first sees a lack of real training and the latter sees a continuence, an addition to.

What I see in my small experience as an ASM since the boy became a Scout, in many Troops (not just ours) is a desire of the boys to LET the adults do the planning, the arranging, the leading. So long as the adults are willing to, and MODEL such behavior, the emphasis will be NOT on the DOING of outdoor stuff by boy led Patrols.

I think I agree with what some threaders have posted.

If the desire is to encourage the Scout to be knowledgeable and self-sufficient in the out of doors, both alone and in teams (Patrols), then the training will be arranged accordingly. Knowledgeable adults will teach other adults(BSLS, IOLS) who in turn should be able to teach/encourage the senior (PLC) Scouts who in turn should take pride in passing on this woodslore to the junior Scouts. And the circle should be self powering and self healing.

If the desire is to teach "how to lead", then the question becomes "lead what?"

I would posit that the activity should drive the need for leadership, not the need for "scientific" leadership drive the need for an activity to lead.

I am not an authority in any of the academic leadership curriculums cited above. I am close to completing my WB tickets. The WB course I took was worthwhile, for an adult to lead and organize adults, in hindsight not much for encouraging boys to lead boys. But what it did do for me and the others in my Patrol (hoot hoot) was to 'empower' us to organize stuff for our boys, hence the 'tickets'.

I reviewed the BSLST manual I was given three years ago. It has alot of "National" pages, and alot of "inserts". There are 6 pages on "organizational charts, Leadership principles, Leadership Styles, Leadership skills and Adult Job Descriptions". There is ONE page titled The Boy Led Patrol. It is a description of the Patrol organization, and types "Regular, New Scout and Venture". ONCE is mentioned "That size (about eight boys) is appropriate... also for hiking and camping without leaving a trace." It then suggests the reader refer to 'Chapter 13, The Outdoor Program". Although there is LOTS of reference material in this three ring binder (some of which reminds me of the Boys' Lifes I read), there is NO "chapter 13" in the book. Don't remember recognizing that way back when.

It is a wonderful compilation of info, skills and observations about what a Scout Troop CAN be, but little about how to obtain a Boy Led Troop.

I'm not sure how much of our discussion back then included how to obtain a Boy Led Troop/Patrol. It sure ain't just saying to the boys: "go do it".

'Nuff for right now.

YiS

I received TWO copies this month. I cannot descern any difference in the two address blocks, they are identical. I will call them later.

I cannot fathom preferring an electric version over the paper version. That might label me as old fashioned, but you can't sit back in the woods and worry about the battery on my laptop to read it. I just got back from a 50th anniversary camp out at my church's camp. A very good time was had by all. Got to acquaint the camp with the Campfire ash tradition and added the camp to the pedigree.

Ditto eagle92.

Shall we talk about bank fees too?

kenpen: Welcome to the virtual crackerbarrel. Pull up an invisible bench (see classic skits) and get comfortable.

Good Question.

Nielup has the bear's share of the answer.

1) The BoR is not a 'final exam' pass/fail, or graded.

2) The 'knot' is, traditionally, an "overhand knot", but like jet526 sez, it would be hard to duplicate it as an actual, useful, recognized knot. I like his instructions. My older manuals all mention the bottom knot as an 'overhand' knot, and mention it's symbology: "the knot on the scroll reminds you of your obligation to do a good turn daily". Unfortunately,the type of knot is missing from my son's manual.

3) The knot hangs from the 'scroll', which is a part of the Second Class, First Class and Eagle badges. The First Class badge is de facto the BSA symbol, and is also within the Star badge, and the Life badge, so the knot is also included in ALL BSA badges. Must be important somehow, huh?

4) The knot appears to me to be more a 'hank' than a 'knot'. A hank is a bunch of rope or cord one would hang on your belt just to have a length of cord with you for whatever use . Practice your knots, throw for a rescue, tie up something, hang something from a tree limb, harrass your little brother, whatever. Be Ready, right? Or Available, or well equipped or...

5) The knots on the metal pin/badges are a twist of wire, not a knot. On big wall mounted carvings, I have seen carved knots and attempts at hanks with small cords. But not a simple overhand knot.

6) I seem to remember an older Scout book that counseled tying a knot in a loop of string (on one's belt? in the pocket? around the finger? don't remember that) and when one's 'daily good turn' was done, the knot would be untied. Tie it again the next morn, and repeat as possible.

But why stop at only one good turn?

Does that tie things up?

(This message has been edited by SSScout)