SR540Beaver

OUCH! All this unscoutlike disrespect for Oklahoma (God's country) is disconcerting! E, The next time you pass thru Oklahoma, give me a call. I can fill you in on all the eateries that have real cream for their coffee. The honey bears with actual honey in them are usually found in the Mexican restauarants for the complimentary sopapillas at the end of the meal. Darn, now I'm hungry.

E, Getting there a few days early to begin acclimating to the altitude and dry air is a very desirable thing. Of course, our guys can easily drive from Oklahoma and they take tents and camp in a campground rather than stay in hotels. I feel your pain on the distance. Getting to Jamboree is a major pain and expense from this end of the world. I was really hoping the BSA would go with a more centrally located site.......say Colorado with cooler temps and drier air, but I think they want to stay close to DC.

Somebody please explain the "no out of state insurance" thing to me.......because my health insurance has not come from inside my state for a decade. I work for a company that has employees across the nation as does my wife's and currenlty out insurance is out of Georgia. We live in Oklahoma. We sat at the table last night and compared the offerings between our two companies as it is "that time of year" again. Higher premiums, less coverage. It kind of reminds me of all these companies that tell the departments each year to reduce costs by 15%. Eventually your budget gets so small you've cut your nose off to spite your face.

Here is one for you. Our SM is a high adventure weight Nazi. The crews from our troop always use the Aquafina brand 1 liter water bottles instead of nalgene bottles. Four 1 liter Aquafina bottles weigh the same as a single nalgene. Some people might be concerned that the water bottles might not be as sturdy as a nalgene and they would be correct. However, it has been our troop's crews multiple experience that they will easily survive the length of a Philmont trip. These are the 1 liter Aquafina bottles that have a larger mouth that a soda bottle and are therefore much easier to fill with a water purification device. http://www.aquafina.com/ There may be other water companies that use the same style bottle, but not any I'm aware of.

Burn out? Me? Nah! If I was doing the same thing over and over, I might. In addition to being a NSP ASM, I'm the incoming OA Chapter Adviser, ASM-Program and backup Course Director for next spring's WB course and ASM for one of our Jambo Troops. I did have to give up Campmastering to make some temporary room for next year though.

jblake, When I say in charge, take that with a grain of salt. It is rare that we three ASM's are ever up in front of the NSP. That is the job of the three TG's and a JASM that often pitches in. We work with the TG's to define what needs to be worked on requirment wise, but it is up to them along with other older scouts to deliver the program. We are highly selective in who we recruit to be TG's. That isn't that a boy can express an interest, but he has to have a good track record. We had one kid who was a Tenderfoot and had just moved to a regular patrol that told us he wanted to be a TG. We told him it was a worthy goal, but he had a ways to go before he could do that. On average, our TG's are 15 and above, Star and above and have some have been previously elected SPL. Our TG's start out very hands on with us in the background and they slowly pull back more and more as the NSP gains in skills and confidence and elects their own PL. Then they function in a support and resource role.

jblake, Hmmmm, we have a teacher who is staffing her fourth WB next year. She doesn't seem to have any problem taking Fridays off to staff. In fact, she is there beginning on Tuesday the first week and Wednesday the second week for staff week. Does she get paid while she is off? No. Can she get the time off if she wants to? Sure. Taking two Fridays off for a two weekend course is a whole lot easier than taking 5 days off for a 6 day straight course. That is the main reason it is offered that way now. I realize that there is a three weekend variation, but it eats up three weekends instead of two and breaks up the continuity too much.

Beavah, That is why I keep pointing out that FCFY is a concept and not a program. BSA is at least smart enough to realize that troops vary so much in their size, experience, skill, etc. that a one sized solution doesn't can't fit all. FCFY is more a mindest than anything else. Setting hard and fast rank requirments is totally different from producing an official FCFY program that a troop of 5 boys is expected to do like a troop of 60 boys. FCFY is kind of like the oath and law. You have a set of principles to live by, but everyone does is trurstworthy or brave in their own way and life experience. You can't dictate the experience a boy is going to have to be cheerful or clean. I ran our new scout program for two years and turned it over to one of my assistants and have served as his assistant for the last two years. Yes, we have one "super" patrol of all new scouts whether it be our low of 15 scouts one year or our high of 24 another year. That was not my choice, but a request of our SM. We had been running two NSP's with two TG's each. One set of TG's was strong and the other was weak. It really showed in rank advancement and retention at the end of about 18 months. Our NSP exists roughly from February thru early November before they move to regular patrols. Our SM decided that he wanted all new scouts to get the same skills training and opportunities across the board and asked that we keep them in one big patrol. It has made a difference for us in the long run. Now, that doesn't mean we run a Webelos 3 den with a lot of classroom lecture. In addition to three TG's, we have three ASM's in our NSP program. We often split the boys up into smaller groups with an individual TG for skill training and testing. Same with cooking on a campout. For our SM, keeping one large patrol was a means to ensure quality control in getting new scouts up and running. Even though we do NSP's, the NSP's are part of the troop, engage in the same programs and activities and get regualr exposure to the mixed age patrols they end up moving to. Personally, I'd like to see 2 to 3 NSP's, but know from experience how unweildy that can be as the adult in charge of the program.

LongHaul, I've got that document on my PC and have used it as an idea resource in the past. It was written by an individual and isn't a formal BSA plan. A better link for the doc is: http://www.arrowhead-district.org/pdf/program_aids/boy/FirstClassFirstYear.doc

pack, When I was in school back in the dark ages, I knew that when those in authority punished kids it was for their actions rather than the color of their skin or how much money they had. We kids knew who the trouble makers were, because we got trouble from them. In today's society, I understand WHY zero tolerance rules have come to exist. That being said, I'm a big believer in personal responsibility for both those in authority and those subject to them. A kid should be able to carry a pocket knife to school. If he uses it to open a box for a teacher, he should be thanked. Should he ever pull it as a weapon, he should never darken the door of a regualr school again. That's the way the real world works.......shouldn't we be preparing kids in school for real life?

Good list! Perhaps your Course Director should have shared the job description printed in the Admin Guide when he recruited you. Just sayin'! Oh yeah.....welcome to the campfire!(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Got to agree with Oak Tree and it's one of the reasons I haven't gone into great detail. Beavah, You've always been a supporter of the program belonging to the charter and not having to adhere to the "letter of the BSA law". Why the about face on FCFY? You know as well as everyone here that every troop is different. There are troops out there with 5 scouts who get 1 crossover every couple of years and there are troops like mine with 6 boys who get 20 crossovers per year. We can both apply the concept of FCFY, but we are going to take totally different approaches to getting there. For instance, meal planning. With 20 boys, it would take the next couple of years to get them signed off if we adhered to the letter of the law. Instead, our troop guides teach the material and skills needed for doing the planning. What we have them do is take a patrol menu planning sheet and they have to design the menu and create the shopping list. The NSP can't do 20 weekend menues in a year. So we check their work to make sure they get it and can do it for an upcoming campout while in the NSP or when they move to a regular patrol. We have pretty good luck with retention, so they will have plenty of opportunities over the coming years to refine the early lessons they demonstrated knowledge or ability on. If the requirement says demonstrate, they have to do that without hemming, hawing and stammering thru it. But they don't have to be able to field strip and clean an M-a6 blindfolded with live rounds whizzing past their ears. I've never seen an official authorized BSA FCFY program and have no idea if one exists that lays out weekly meeing plans and monthly outing plans to walk a boy thru T2FC in exactly 12 months. What I have seen is plenty of troops design their program so each requirement is covered during an annual program to make it available to a boy to accomplish. THAT is FCFY to me.

Excellent post Buff.

Very good points Barry.

So Brent, what would be a satisfactory answer for you to pass a boy thru in his EBOR? I know a good number of scouts who come from "Christian" families. Kind of like how the US is a "Christian" nation. Many of these "Christians" never darken the door of a church, but are raised with "Christian" values at home. What are the buzz words you want to here from a boy to give you a warm fuzzy for earning Eagle? Does he need to be president of the youth council of his church? Does he need go on mission trips? Is having attended at least one church summer camp enough to get a pass? Is saying I bow my head when we say grace before a meal enough? I'm not trying to be critical or facetious. I'm not a "Godless liberal". I have a degree in religion from a Southern Baptist University and am a life long evangelical Christian. I know what I believe and I know where and why my denomination differs with all the other Christian denominations and varying varieties of Catholicism. Why I even know some fine fellow Christians that would say an LDS Scout shouldn't be able to earn Eagle because they worship a false religion. I haven't even mentioned Islam, Judaism, Buddhism that we all know are going to hell anyway. Scouts come from every walk of life. How does a local EBOR make a decision on whether a boy is reverent and does his duty to God? We tend to think inside our little boxes. I'm reminded of when I went to the Southern Region Wood Badge Course Director Development Conference last year. Let's face it, most of us in the Southern Region are white Christians. We had a fellow (from California) from the Western Region attend our conference because he couldn't make any of the dates in his region. He got tickled at all the discussions and difficulty expressed at understanding and accommodating diversity in our region. Being from California, he said diversity in scouting is easily understood and practiced because it is just an everyday part of their culture. Don't get me wrong. If a boy truly understands WHAT an atheist is and totally identifies with it and strongly believes that is what he is, then he indeed does have some problems in earning Eagle. But so many kids at that age are in formative years and exploring what they believe, I feel we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and have some discussions with them about it. But even if the boy is willing to allow that there is a power greater than himself and he tries to be a good and moral person who does service to others......is that good enough for folks with preconceived notions sitting on his board?

Here in Oklahoma, we don't drink pop or soda. We drink a lot of coke......some of which is Coca Cola.

Ramen noodles. The shortest point between two points is a straight line. We had to ban them in a troop I used to serve because a patrol had them on every campout due to how quick and easy they were to prepare. The line got drawn when they got too lazy to even heat water and started eating them dry.

Dear MR. Walsh, I hearby formerly dissolve our internet friendship. I cannot bear the thought of befriending an individual who has a peanut butter ban as I could live off of nothing but peanut butter......crunchy of course. Sincerely, SR540Beaver

I'm still baffled at the bebafflement (is that even a word) over the concept of FYFC. I've yet to see anyone describe their program as a scheduled 52 week curriculum where the kids all sit in rows of chairs in a room while adults lecture and then they either take a test or simply get signed off for participating. Yet some folks seem to think that is what FCFY is and it seems to happen everywhere. Odd. We utilize the concept, but there isn't a scout who has gone thru our program that would know what you are talking about if used the term. They would give you the same look you'd get if you talked to them about a bacon stretcher or a left handed smoke shifter.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

BP, FCFY isn't about the boys keeping pace with one another and advancing in lockstep. As OGE said, it is more about a unit making the opportunities available within a year to cover all of the rank requirements. If a boy misses the campout where we specifically do the 5 mile hike for advancement, then he has to do it at some other opportunity. Kind of like x numbers of night of camping or x number of troop/patrol functions. If he isn't there, he hasn't done it. One kid never misses anything and gets it signed off in short order. The kid who wrestles or plays football and makes one or two meetings a month gets there slower. Regardless of how fast or slow the boy meets reequirements and advances, the program was in place to provide the opportunities to meet them on an annual basis. Honestly, it just ins;t that hard for a unit's youth leadership to come up with a year's plan to provide a successful program.

Oh yeah! There are people at national. I saw the building with cars in the parking lot when I went to the museum. The myth is that they actually have names, email addresses and phone numbers and can easily be reached by the average volunteer.

kittle, I do hope you come back. With all due respect, you brought an issue to the forum asking a question. After repeated attempts to get to the heart of the matter, you still have not answered the question of why the SM said your son's rank was rescinded. We end up having to read between the lines. For instance, here are my assumptions. Your son claimed Den Leader as his POR. Was the POR approved by the SM prior to him holding the office? Was there an assumption that he had fulfilled the duties of the POR and then a claim made that he had not after the BOR had taken place? There has to be a reason.....legit or not....as to why they felt a need to rescind the rank. We still don't know what that is. All that being said, I am unaware of any porcedures or regulations for rescinding a rank. Due dilligence should be preformed by all adults involved to make sure all the ducks are in a row before the process ever gets to the end of the BOR approving the rank. If a boy were to lie or cheat and claim the fulfillment of a rank requirement when it was not actually done, I could see where that might raise an eye brow. For instance, he got approval for doing a required service project, came back and told the SM he did it and the SM signs off only to find out later that the boy never actually showed up and participated. In that case, he didn't fulfill the requirement and lied his way thru the SM conference and BOR and earned his rank under false pretenses. Understand, I am in no way saying your son did anything like that. It is just that when we don't get the details, we have to use our imagination to come up with why and how something like the rescinding of a rank would occur.

The buddy system extends to tenting and therefore a scout is not allowed to ever tent alone.

scoutldr, I fon't like being negative, but very often the mantra here is to contact your COR or the UC or the DAC or the DE. I've been involved in a past situation were we needed the COR and UC involved as well as other district level folks. The basic answer....even from the COR....was, "you are all grown ups, play nice and leave us alone." Usually, units are left to do things the way they want to do things. The district or council can suggest that an SM allow elections in the unit, but very likely won't enforce it. What are they going to do, fire him? He works for the IH and COR. He can only be removed by pulling his membership and not allowing elections doesn't qualify for that kind of action. If they were in that kind of business, every unit would be fully uniformed at every meeting and boy run and I don't see that happening.

Hmmmm? We usually bring an average of 20 new boys into our program each year and we utilize NSP's. We have from 3 to 4 TG's and 3 ASM's. Our responsibility is the new scout program. FCFY is more of a working concept than a by the book approach for us. We aren't hell bent for leather to get all those boys to 1st Class in a year. We are determined to provide a program that makes it close to possible if they will attend and participate regularly. We 3 ASM's work with the TG's to determine what we want to do and where we want to go program wise and they in turn take it to the PLC. When it comes to teaching skills, the TG's are up front and we ASM's sit in the back. As the "season" progresses and the NSP becomes more profecient in their skills, the TG's step back more and more. WE are basically using the EDGE approach. We don't sign off because they sit thru a TG presentation on a skill. If it says show, they have to show. If it says explain, they have to explain. If it says do, they have to do. It has to be to our satisfaction. Nowhere do I see where it says that the if the boy shows you once, you deny him and make him show you 5 or 6 times over the next half year before you decide he has absorbed it for a lifetime. Our NSP usually runs from roughly February to November with the boys moving into regular patrols. On rare occasion, we've had boys make 1st Class in 8 months and others take 2 years. Edited in response to nolsrule, exactly! While the whole troop goes on monthly outings and often the new scout patrol and regular patrol programs are the same, we do design elements of the outing specifically for the new scouts. The other patrols might be fishing and the new scouts are doing their 5 mile hike or working on identifying 10 types of native plants. We take advantage of whatever the monthly outing presents in the way of location to provide opportunities to fulfill rank requirements in the trail to 1st class. It is up to the boy to come and participate and master the requirement. But he isn't left lacking for the opportunity during his first year.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)