SR540Beaver

OGE, I was unaware that "being in the band" was no longer geeky. Interestingly enough, two of my buddies that were in band in high school were also Boy Scouts!

Zahnada, You make some good points, but I don't agree totally with you. It all depends on the Cub program you are running. The Cubs do Cub stuff and the Boy Scouts do Boy Scout stuff. In between stands Webelos where my son currently is. We use the program as it is intended to transition the boys to Scouts. We visit troops, go to Camporees and Webelos Woods with troops and do a good amount of camping on our own. We do our best to introduce them to the differences between Cubs and Scouts and prepare them for it. We give them a taste of the difference. I realize that some adult Cub leaders may not have much exposure to Boy Scouts and therefore make Webelos JUST a continuation of Cubs. If they follow the program, go to roundtables and put forth an effort to build relationships with local troops (as well as the troops doing their part), I don't see the Cubs considering Scouts to be geeky. They should already know what the differences are and looking forward to crossing over. I think the geekiness comes from peers outside the program.

Hmmmmm, lame or geeky? I think a lot of it has to do with the good turn. Boy Scouts have a reputation for being "goody two shoes". Kids are rebellious by nature, so any program that stresses a conventional, conservative conformity is something to be avoided. At least at face value. Many kids are brought up in good homes where these standards are taught. They know right from wrong, but on the surface will succumb to peer pressure in parroting the lameness or geekiness of a program like Scouting. Christian kids get the same guff from non-church kids too. So, I think the "values" of Scouting causes some of the geek view to outsiders. The uniform is another geek factor item. Sports uniforms are flashy and mimic pro and college teams. The scout uniform has changed over the years, but fundamentally has stayed the same with it's color, patches and neckerchief. Other than scouts, who do you see wear neckerchiefs? One of the most common complaints my son gets when trying to recruit buddies is the uniform. In this day of flash, style and name brands, the scout uniform is a throw back to another time in the eyes of many kids. The uniform style does not emulate any of their heroes like sports uniforms do. Not too long ago, one of our Webelos' dad told us his son would not be crossing over because the Boy Scouts seemed to be made up of losers and geeks. I can't agree with the loser statement, but I have met a lot of geek Boy Scouts. But I see geekiness from adult eyes, where the kids see it from kid's eyes. The geeks of Scouts are kids who are less worried about living the common teen image and are more interested in persuing the things that interest them. I'm sure Bill Gates was considered a geek by many of his classmates. We adults know time changes things. Anyone who has ever attended a high school reunion realizes that the cool kids and the geeks kind of blend together over the years. I saw some prom queens that weighed 300 lbs and some geeky chess club girls who were knockouts after 20 years. So yeah, Scouts has some pretty geeky kids that the "cool" kids wouldn't be caught dead with. But some day the cool kid may be working for the geeky scout. I know I'm rambling, so I'll quit pulling things off the top of my head. I understand why people see scouting as geeky. I do sometimes myself. But I love it and can't think of any other program that could benefit my son more.....because I get it.

dsteele, I thought you weren't going to be around?! I agree with you wholeheartedly.....but! Word of mouth and seeing scouts in action is the BEST publicity the BSA can have. Most adults recognize and understand the value of the program, at least on an elementary scale. The big sell is to the boys and convincing them that scouting is cool. My son gets laughed at for being in scouts and he answers with....well have you ever done this, and lists the kind of things scouts do. He often is met with answers of, "yeah right". I think that some well placed advertisement of scouting activites coupled with word of mouth might do a lot to dispel the "geekiness" factor at the youth level.

NJ, I remember those days too. My 3rd grade picture was taken in my Cub uniform. I remember meeting in home with den mothers. It seemed like every boy in school was in scouts back then. I know they were not, but it was probably a majority. I remember our school cafeteria being "pack"ed for our pack meetings. I understand where the kids are coming from......the first time I put on my uniform after registering as an adult, my wife laughed at me!

On the topic of geeks, one of our Webelos Dad told our Cub Master that his son would not be crossing over since the Boy Scouts seemed to be made up of geeks and losers. Funny thing is, his son is one of the "geekiest" in the den. On another note, I got my council newsletter in the mail yesterday. It had an article about how den meetings used to be held after school and how the Cubs wore their uniform to school on den meeting day. The writer suggested that even though most den meetings are held in the evenings now days, we encourage our cubs to wear their uniforms to school in an effort to recruit more boys. I read the article to my 10 year old, 5th grade Webelos son (who loves scouting) and he told me he would be the laughing stock of the school. One of the boys in his den wore his uniform last year and was laughed at all day long. If only those kids knew what fun these geeks were having.

That is nothing new. Back when I was in Jr High and Sr High in the early to mid 70's, scouting was considered geeky then too.

SR540BEAVER: "Does anyone really believe that another boy would think that getting a girl pregnant out of wedlock is "cool" and want to imitate it?" FOG: "It happens. There are segments of our society in which boys want to get their girlfriends pregnant to show that they are "men." The girls want to get pregnant to give them income and status. Very foreign to our way of thinking but that's the way it is." But we are not talking about segments of our society, we are talking about a troop. I don't think most scouts would think this was cool and want to imitate it. Kids in a gang, possibly.....scouts, no.

Depends on the boy. Most boys can sleep on a bed of nail and in 1,500 different positions. A pad doesn't even begin to cut it for my old bones! Even with a pad, it feels like I'm sleeping on granite and I pay for it in the morning big time. I have an air mattress I use or a cot I use with a self inflating pad on it. Neither lend themselves to backpacking obviously. My son has been in Cubs, so our camping has been car camping and bring a boat load of bedding has not been a problem. He crosses over in February and as much as old Dad hates to miss a campout, he will have to go it alone if/when they backpack. Like I said, it depends on how much "comfort" the boy wants. During warm weather, he may just want to sleep on top of the bag, but in cold weather he might find the insulating properties of a pad worth the extra weight.

The Last Frontier Council is where EagleDad and I serve. The Last Frontier Council is made up of more than 35,000 youth and more than 8,000 volunteer Scouters and adults in twenty-four counties across central, western, and southwestern Oklahoma. We have 11 districts and 2 Learning for Life programs. I've never seen other council's numbers to compare to, but I've always considered us to be a fairly large council. We own and operate 5 properties. One of the advantages I've seen after bunking with a fellow from a smaller council at Wood Badge is that we have more properties and training opportunities. I have no idea how many units our council has.

I'll agree that the boy has set a bad example. A really bad example! But this isn't smoking or drinking. Does anyone really believe that another boy would think that getting a girl pregnant out of wedlock is "cool" and want to imitate it? In 9 months they will here all the horror stories and see their buddy tied down and unable to be a kid and any luster the idea had will be gone quickly. When we were kids, we all knew the occasional boy or girl that got in this situation and how they seemed to drop off the face of the earth after the baby arrived. I'm not advocating for just looking the other way or ignoring the Oath and Law. I just don't think this is a behavior other boys will want to imitate. Sex, maybe....having a baby, NO. They are smart enough to begin to understand how that will affect them long term.

FOG, I'm not interested in the house question......I want to know how he connects to the internet from a tent during those 240 days?

Rooster, I've yet to meet any scouter who could be a poster child for the BSA. I've seen a lot who "do their" dead level "best" to daily live the oath and law just like many of us Christians who fall short daily. A little grace goes a long way.

BD, If the women don't find you handsome, at least they can find you handy!

I believe that what I was looking for is the Baden-Powell Scouting Association. A BSA troop from Fort Worth, TX contacted the UK organization about affiliating with them and carried dual association with B-PSA and BSA until switching over exclusively to B-PSA. They claim it is a more "traditional" scouting movement. It appears that units have been added in some additional states. Here is the website I believe I had previously seen. http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/index.html

I have been wracking my brain trying to think of the name of a scouting organization I remember seeing on the internet. They had some units in the US and are very very similar to BSA, but are not. They follow BP's original 10 points of the law. For the life of me, I can't remember what they were called. Perhaps that is what these boys were, but that would not explain a "Council" patch if it was indeed a BSA Council patch.

Proud Eagle, I believe the BSA policy say "avowed" homosexual. That means the person has to publically declare themselves as such.

I heard a line on "West Wing" last night that made me laugh and think of this thread. It was, "what do you call a leader without any followers? A guy taking a walk." LOL But seriously, I don't think anyone responded to my earlier post where I asked why we call ourselves leaders if we are supposed to reject the idea of followers? One suggests the other. Is BSA using the term "leader" out of context? Also, I know my other post was long and points you off to another website, but it is very relevant to the discussion in this thread. I hope people will at least take a look at it and comment.

I did a Google search on the words "leadership, followership, qualities" and came across an organization called "weLEAD Inc". This is what weLEAD has to say about themselves, "We are chartered as a non-profit organization dedicated to advance the understanding and education of organizational and personal leadership. weLEAD is committed to the ideal that great leaders are forged by knowledge, opportunity and experience. We also affirm that leadership qualities are potentially available to everyone and we seek to promote positive leadership development in organizations, communities and individuals. We are an organization developed by leaders, for the benefit of other leaders worldwide. Most of our content is provided by a variety of individuals who desire to encourage sound leadership principles." They have some intersting articles concerning followership and how it relates to leadership. In order to keep this post short, I will provide just the website address and the first paragraph of each article. If you are interested, you can go there and read the articles. http://www.leadingtoday.org/Onmag/marchapril03/follow32003.html The Art of Followership Leaders can only exist and accomplish extraordinary goals because they have supportive followers! Both need each other to achieve the groups vision and established mission. Unfortunately, the term to follow or follower has gained a negative connotation in western society. Some sneeringly use the epithet follower to label an individual as one who is passive, inferior or without creativity. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Followers make things happen and thereby gain the valuable skills needed to grow themselves into leadership positions. Ira Chaleff, author of The Courageous Follower: Standing Up to and for Our Leaders, correctly argues that it is essential for our culture to change this negative perception of followers into a positive evaluation. In the study of leadership theory, the word followership often defines those who acknowledge the central leader(s) as a source for guidance, motivation and authority. However, to a certain degree, all individuals are leaders and all are followers. Everyone in the modern workplace shares in at least some leadership role or responsibility and even a CEO may demonstrate followership within a relationship with the Board of Directors! http://www.leadingtoday.org/Onmag/marchapril03/follow42003.html Good Followership Qualities Part 1 This month, we will discuss some of the individual qualities of good followership. These qualities help the follower to be more effective and prepare them for future positions of leadership. Learning to serve and follow others helps one to develop the empathy and humility needed for superb leadership. These followership guidelines are based on taking personal responsibility, maintaining trust and credibility and remaining true to your deeply felt convictions. http://www.leadingtoday.org/Onmag/may03/follow52003.html Good Followership Qualities Part 2 In part 2 of Good Followership Qualities, we continue to discuss the traits that promote outstanding followership behavior and prepare one for future leadership roles. Before reading this tip we encourage you to read the March 2003 weLEAD Tip of the Month entitled, The Art of Followership and the April 2003 weLEAD Tip of the Month entitled, Good Followership Qualities Part 1.

OGE, I don't disagree with what you said. However, (and this may be a shock to some) life does not begin when you become a Boy Scout. The boy has had 10 1/2 to 11 years of following leaders (hopefully 4 to 5 in Cub Scouts) and learning something of what a leader should be. Perhaps we need to find a more politically correct description to use other than "leader". Leader infers follower. Since there should be no "followers" in scouting, perhaps there should be no one called "leader" or "master". Even "guide" might be to strong for some folks. To be more accurately descriptive, perhaps we could use "non-gender specific registered adult" or "person who sets an example for peers to foll.....", well never mind that last one.

Excuse me Bob, but we are not privy to your private massages. Perhaps your responses should have been made in private to Z. We were responding with our opinions and experiences based on the first post in this thread. It is a horse of a different color than what you and Z discussed privately. You were talking apples while the rest of us were talking oranges. I respect your knowledge, experience and opinions....but I don't take them as gospel. If the BSA wants the program taught in a cookie cutter fashion, then they need to change their training and spell things out in detail with warnings not to deviate from the canned speech. I believe one of the key strengths of the BSA is in recognizing the varied and different strengths of individuals and what they bring to the table. The program framework and basics are there, but can be applied based on the individuals abilities. You think many of us are talking boss/employee followers. We are not. We are talking respect. Many of my previous bosses could tell me what to do and I had to do it or not get paid. However, over time I recognized the values they were imparting and saw them actually do what they had been taught when they were in my shoes. Rather than do what they asked because it was my job, I did what they asked before they asked because I bought into their way of doing things. They got my full support because of my respect. They had leadership skills. They had me following their example. They learned them the same way I did by following another leaders example. Thier way of doing things became infectious. In this case, I'm talking about a work ethic. They learned it and they passed it on. If they had never been taught or been willing to follow someone else's example, then they would have probably been a lousy leader and a poor example. But they followed and learned and became leaders themselves. I've taken many many lessons from many many leaders in my life and followed those examples. I pass that on to people who I am a leader to now. You can poo poo my experience all you want. It has been valuable to me and worked for me. Bob, you get hung up on philosophies, ideas and words and your interpretation of them and treat people on here like we are detremental to scouting. We have as many boys who appreciate the program as you do. Bob, I do respect you, but I do at times get annoyed at your high and mighty attitude that you have the answers and the rest of us are wrong. Usually, we are saying the same thing, but you get hung up on a single word and are convinced that you and only you are correct.

BW, It must be mighty lonesome being the only person on this forum to understand the scouting program and trying to straighten the rest of us out. But, somebody has to do it.

BW, If my Dad read your posts he'd tell you what he used to tell me...."boy, you'd argure with a stump". Let's take a vote here. Who is suggesting that we not follow the program and who is making excuses to not train youth leadership in their units? When we refer to a follower, we do not mean a worshiper or a boot licker. We mean someone who has chosen to accept a person as a leader. In fact, often voted them into a position of leadership. Why would they chose to accept this person in that role? Usually because they display leadership qualities learned under the leadership of another person the leader had accepted at an earlier date. When a PL makes out a duty roster and gives the same guy latrine duty every single time, there is going to be a mutiny pretty soon. When a PL is fair and rotates the jobs among all patrol members, he will have people that accept his assignments. His good leadership skills encourage his patrol to accept (follow) his assignments willingly....even when it is a job they don't like. He decides (with consideration of his members), they accept (with trust). How does the successful PL win the approval of his patrol? Thru skills earned by both training and experience from being under other good or bad PL's. He had to chose to decide to follow the lead of former PL's. It made him a better leader by learning what to follow and what not to follow. It's really simple common sense and doesn't require a degree in philosophy.

My age is classifed, but I trust you guys to keep a secret.....46. However, if I sleep on a pad instead of my cot, I feel about 76 in the morning. You wouldn't like me in the morning! Even on a good day.

"Actually, if the most important thing in a young man's life is membership in the BSA, I'd be a little worried about him!" I'll take a stab at how I understand this statement. Scouting is a great program, but it is not the be all end all of a boys life. BSA does not expect this. Look at what the BSA wants for each boy....duty to God, duty to country, duty to others, duty to self. BSA expects a scout to be a well rounded scout. Do you want a kid who says, "I don't need me no educashun, I'm gonna be a basketball star and be rich"? You expect that kid to get an education and love basketball both. Well rounded is what this statement means. Not putting all your eggs in one basket. Should scouting be important to a boy? Of course! Should it be the MOST important thing in his life? Your son's coach, teachers, minister, boss, girlfriend, etc might beg to differ with you. One of my recent pleasures was at a parent/teacher conference when my son's teacher said he was a very well rounded child. Scouting should play a very important role in a boys life along with his other pursuits and obligations.