shortridge

Gern wrote: "As I watched my son navigate through his scouting, it became apparent to me that boy scouting is a really good middle school program and a lousy HS program." I'm very intrigued by this statement, which encapsulated a lot of what I've been thinking about and observing. I know that without the lodge leadership opportunities in the OA and the camaraderie of summer camp staff, I'd probably have dropped out long before I hit 18. Doing the same old thing year after year in my troop got old really quickly. So what makes Scouting a lousy high school program - or not? And what can we do to make it better? Is Venturing the answer? Are females and fumes simply too strong to fight, and thus we should give up? What's kept your older Scouts in the program?

Why not just put on a positive, active program that keeps their skills well-honed through constant use? That strikes me as a much better way to accomplish your goal than a punitive local option.

Gauge interest, set deadlines and collect money early. That gives people skin in the game and makes them less likely to cancel and leave the pack holding the bag.

BTW, we've also decided that the Scout badges (TF, 2nd, 1st) will be ONLY for skills currently held. We'll probably give Scouts a 6-week grace period to bring skills up to spec, but otherwise, they'll have to drop back a badge. Pardon me, but what allows you to re-test and demote Scouts who have already earned rank?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Actually, the standards for resident camps are very rigorous and explicit. They aren't just rubber-stamped. Approval of a tour permit for a long-term camp is not the same as approval of a unit-run resident camp program. Resident camp standards for 2010 are here: http://nerbsa.org/filestore/regions/neregion/program/campschool/visitation/2010_Resident_Camp_Standards.pdf As you can see, it would be extremely difficult for a unit doing a week-long campout, especially in a backcountry area, to meet all these standards. Your best bet is to call your council, as the OA advises, and check out what standards they would apply to your troop's camp.

As a non-WBer... why does this matter? No, really. I'm not being sarcastic or critical. Why is the course number so important, and not just an administrative thingy?

Direct from the OA website, oa-bsa.org ... emphasis mine: Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a Boy Scout owned and operated camp, or can it be a troop long term campout allowed by the council? A: The exact wording of the camping requirement can be found in the current printing of the Guide for Officers and Advisers (#34997A, revised 1999). This book sets forth the official policy of the Order of the Arrow on this topic. The pertinent passage, on page 20, says: "... long-term camp consisting of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America." It does not say that the resident camp must be at a Boy Scout owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a troop runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Boy Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping people can provide more information on what the current standards are. Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in the current Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect. ============== As a purely practical matter, however, no one's going to check up on them. There's no one up at your council HQ who's calling around and verifying where your troop attended summer camp. Your signature as SM is enough to qualify them for election.

The moms used it to play a cute little game - they pointed to which one of my patches corresponded to the year they were born. The year the moms were born or the boys were born?

How does one become an IOLS Certified Course Instructor?

Take an informal poll early on of how many families would be inclined to come, then reserve your building that will accommodate at least that many. Make it crystal-clear that there's an upper limit to the cabin's capacity and that it's first-come, first-serve. If they don't sign up (and pay up) early on, there might not be a space.

I may have said this before on an earlier thread ... but it's worth repeating ... talk to your local camp director or program director about recruiting camp program staff who are in the area or may be going to college nearby. They may have a spare weekend free, and I can almost guarantee you that for a bunk, shower and a couple of meals, they'll be more than happy to come help you out, especially if it's at their home camp. Ask about Scoutcraft and Nature/Ecology instructors, as well as anyone who works with the first-year camper program. If there's an NCS-trained area director around, you've got your next course director candidate right there.

TNScoutTroop wrote: Many, perhaps most, orthodox denominations tend to perceive BSA as at odds with specifically Christian beliefs in the way GCUSA is. OK, I'll bite ... huh?? Why? Who? What's your definition of an "orthodox denomination," and just why are they at odds with BSA? Funny, I always thought BSA was at odds with the liberal congregations. So National can't please either extreme? kcshrader wrote: I'd suggest their parents take a very close look at the program. Believe it or not, AHG's non-discrimination policy means that the girls only have to promise to say the Oath (love God, cherish my family, honor my country, serve in my community) and abide by the rules & regs. The Statement of Faith only applies to the adults. So AHG will accept girls of any faith ... just tell them that their parents can't help out because they're nonbelievers?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Seventeen Webelos-age boys are enough to exhaust anyone! ABSOLUTELY tell - don't ask - the CM and pack leadership that they need to find another den leader and split this group into a more manageable size. That's not to say that there won't be issues with a smaller den ... but at least they won't seem so overwhelming! In the meantime, enlist your parents as The Blancmange suggested - both to help with programs and make sure that their sons understand what's proper behavior. Don't be afraid to lay down the law if the kids are acting too rambunctious. Though their general nature at that age is that of small savages, they're also old enough to sit and listen respectfully for a few minutes.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

The committee decides what is an official troop event. But you do that beforehand, not after the fact. "Hey, Johnny, we know you went on that camping trip, and Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones went along too, but because we adults are engaging in a juvenile p*ssing match, we've decided that it wasn't a real camping trip, and nothing you did on it counts for anything - not the nature identification hike, not the peach cobbler you cooked at dinner, not the 10 miles you backpacked to get there. Sorry, but hopefully by next month we'll have stopped urinating on each others' feet and can get back to real Scouting. Of course, this may happen again if we can't control our urges to whip it out and measure." That's the message this kind of behavior sends. It's a bigger issue than just whether or not the nights count for camping. If the committee didn't make this rule clear, then it's at fault. If the SM knew about the rule and defied it, then he or she is at fault. One side needs to Scout up and do what's right for the boys.

I'd agree with you to a certain point. Not receiving an award isn't punishment. You either earn it or you don't. But in the situation described in the other thread, the boys involved did everything they were supposed to - they were going camping. They had no way of knowing that the troop committee and the program leadership were apparently in a disagreement over adult training. That shouldn't affect the boys.

Without having been there, it sounds like the meals were a huge pain, given the prep and cleanup. You're not a caterer and shouldn't have to be one! Some ideas: - Set up a DIY registration system: A sign saying "Check in here," with a clipboard and pen hanging next to it and a pile of schedules/handouts/etc. with a sign saying "Take one." When it's time to start, grab the clipboard, scan the names, ask any questions, and go. - Have them eat breakfast before they come on Saturday - don't provide it. Coffee? Sure, but it's the job of the coffee drinkers to get it going if they want some, not yours. - For lunch, have them bring their own bag meals with all disposable items. - Have you and your trainers eat with the patrols. That way there's no separate staff meal to prepare or clean up. - Instead of the staff having to clean up, include the participants. Teaching someone how to cook breakfast over a stove without also teaching them how to wash the dishes covers only half the skill! Sounds like they were taking advantage of your good nature just a bit. None of the participants volunteered to help with cleanup/packup? Not all that Scoutlike, IMHO.

I always wanted to get the hovercraft kit from the back-of-the-book Boys Life advertisements. There was also a brief time when I really, really wanted to go to Culver Military Academy because the ads looked awesome. And I'd be utterly remiss for not mentioning the liners for sea monkeys and X-ray specs! Imagination-inspiring entertainment for gullible kids.

Sorry, double post.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Your son should be praised, not chastised. He sounds like an enthusiastic Scout! 1) Is there any definitive guide that states what is and is not considered an outing for this requirement? Such things are up to the Scoutmaster or his/her designees. If two ASMs are in disagreement, the SM should step in and make it clear. 2) Is it unreasonable for a Scout with a lot of experience in the woods to get 1st Class in 7 or 8 months? Not at all unreasonable. 3) Is it appropriate for an ASM to tell a Scout to slow down and question something another ASM signed off on? I already feel it is very un-Scout like for his son to be questioning this. A leader can certainly suggest that a Scout may be doing things too fast and be on the road to burnout. That can be delivered as friendly advice. But it doesn't sound like that was the motivation.

That's almost as good as the "Waiting in the Parking Lot" version sung by SMs and ASMs who have to stick around for parents who don't show up at the pickup time and can't be reached by phone ... then roll in an hour or so late because they had to get their hair done / go grocery shopping / watch the football game / and lost track of time. Respect goes both ways. Did you express your sentiments to the ASM in charge of transporting your Scout back to the designated spot at the designated time? Or did you just duck and cover and blow off steam here, where it won't actually change that behavior?

I'd be more inclined to give the new SM a heads-up on the father who told his son to ignore the safety rules and screamed at the PL.

I think it makes sense ... but I can certainly see how the DEs would really enjoy that summer break from fundraising and all the rest to concentrate on program! The more I've learned about what they do, the more I think "Lordy, that'd be an awful job."

BadenP, That's an interesting model (DEs as summer camp directors), and one that my council hasn't used in the time I've been active. The system now is to have these pros on-site or nearby who serve as camp director during the summer and coordinate council program activities during the year - plus coordinating year-round programming at their camps, of course. They serve as staff advisors to council committees coordinating HA, Philmont, Jambo, civic service, camping/outdoor adventure, OA, etc. Those are roles DEs used to fill (when I was a Scout, the senior DE was the staff advisor to the OA lodge), but now the DEs concentrate more on their districts and the fundraising/recruitment/startup duties. I don't have the FOS details, sorry.

Concur with Eagle92. If a CO wants to require that its leaders be fully trained, that's entirely its prerogative. But it's really not smart to apply that rule retroactively when it only punishes the boys for ... what? going camping? being Scouts?

I know this may be an abberation, BadenP, but in my council, the only recent increase in the professional staff has been in the program department. In the last five years, it's gone from three staffers to seven. We now have full-time camp directors/council program directors at each of our council camps, plus two full-time camp rangers, and a director of support services to supervise them all. It's a huge improvement over hiring temporary summer camp directors who wouldn't have much institutional knowledge.