shortridge

There is a mandatory resident camp standard of two adults per eight boys, per unit attending camp, but that doesn't apply to day camps. The publication "Cub Scout Day Camp: An Administrative Guide for Local Councils" says: "Ten Campers to any one staff person at a time is a good ratio."

The mandatory national camp standard moxieman refers to reads: "Each camper is provided with a minimum of 30 square feet of sheltered space for sleeping and storing personal gear. This does not apply to outpost or off-camp camping or unit-supplied tentage." So you can have all the Scouts in bivy sacks if you want. But camp-supplied tents have to meet that standard.

Are there any OA members around for the summer? Any den chiefs free for a week? Can the local resident camp loan out any CITs or junior instructors, maybe rotating them through? Do you know any local teachers who could help out? Is there a Venturing Crew nearby that could lend a hand? I assume you have all the core program staff - archery, BB, lifeguards, nature geeks - and are mostly looking for extra bodies to help with crowd control.

How is a new scout expected to know to "ask his patrol leader"? By drumming that in at prospective troop visits, at the Scout's very first meeting, in parent handouts, on the Troop's website, in patrol meetings, in the Scout's first meeting with his new patrol leader ... etc. If you set the tone from the start, there should be no surprises. Parents need to understand that this isn't Cubs any more - Scouts mostly talk to Scouts, instead of parents talking to leaders. Really, it's not that hard to do. Alternatively, neither would it have been difficult for the mother to open her son's Handbook and check if there was anything written there about it. Now, if the SM had said "Has your son asked his patrol leader?" and refused to answer any more questions, I'd consider that a bit rude. That question about patches should have been a teaching moment, with the SM following up with an explanation of why we do it that way, how we do it that way, and the critical importance of doing it that way.

That was the whole thrust of this thread, BDPT. Someone was seeking support for a plan to allow, encourage or even *require* BSA to accept AHG leaders into its training courses. There was also another comment in another past thread where someone was complaining and moaning that the local BSA council wasn't handing out AHG pamphlets. There is very much a sense of entitlement at work here. I don't know if it's because honest people with AHG simply misinterpreted (or didn't read) the MOU, or because someone at National gave AHG a wink and a nod and left them with the impression that both groups are on the same side, fighting the same fight. Again, if AHG wants to use Scouting resources or camps or programs, it can pay the fees, same as anybody else. If discounts are offered because of the MOU, those same discounts should be offered to the Islamic Society of North America and the American Radio Relay League, among other groups. BSA is under no obligation to prop up an organization that can't succeed on its own.

If not publishing a agendas and minutes and a list of members makes a body legitimate, then the National Executive Board should shut down, too. You can find a calendar of its meetings online, but not what it's going to discuss or what action it's taken.

moose - That certainly is good logic. My comment was more directed at the AHG folks who think they're entitled to use BSA resources, or that they're somehow special in Irving's eyes because some PR guy drafted an MOU. If that's the case, every group that has signed an MOU should also be given special consideration, from ham radio enthusiasts to the Islamic Society. I wish I could figure out where this misinformation started.

Generally speakin', I think if a lad starts at camp for the very first time, he should not be able to finish a badge at camp. A brand new, never-in-the-water boy is not goin' to be able to earn Swimming MB in a week. Same for most of the other badges, with da exception of a few low-hangin' "throw-away" badges like Fingerprinting. I wish more Scouters understood this, and took the task of MB screening and pre-coaching seriously. I have never been as frustrated as I was while teaching Pioneering at summer camp and having to start from scratch with brand-new Scouts who'd only learned to tie the square knot that morning, while also trying to get experienced knot-tyers working on their lashings and projects.

Jeffrey - All those religious COs you cite accept and understand the principles of inclusion that Scouting is based upon. Not necessarily so for AHG. While there may be some overlap, AHG does NOT "believe in what the BSA stands for and represents." Being Reverent in Scouting and Reverent in AHG mean entirely different things. In sum, one is focused on Christianity; the other is focused on Scouting. BDPT - I know the official line is that the AHG Statement of Faith applies only to adults - but that's contradicted by AHG itself. The group describes itself as a "Judeo-Christian focused organization" aimed at "Christian parents" whose daughters can "put 'legs on their faith' thus becoming an outward sign of Christ's love in their community." I thus have a hard time understanding how a Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist girl can join and be accepted, without being preached at. Can you explain how that works? All this is still academic for most of the country, however. AHG simply is not a force or a factor outside of the 300 communities where it has a foothold - a tiny number when you compare it to any other youth-serving organization. To put it into perspective: It has been just over 15 years since AHG started, and it has 13,000 members. Ten years after BSA was founded, in a much more rural, far less connected time, there were more than 500,000 members. If your council wants to allow AHG members to sign up for its training, more power to everyone involved. But in fairness, you should also be spreading the word to the other organizations that BSA has MOUs with.

JoeBob - I was going for a formal legal-type statement that clearly indicated ownership, but try this if you want something more explicit. Load up the two sites side-by-side in separate browser windows. Which one says "Boy Scouts of America" and which one says "U.S. Scouting Service Project"? Which one uses a Scouting logo and registered trademark symbol beside it, and which one uses tiny generic clip-art images? And more to the point, which one has a prominent link at the top of the page - "Go To BSA Site" - which clearly indicates the linking site is NOT sponsored by the BSA? Dude, it's pretty obvious.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

That Alabama troop sounds like a group of Stepford Scouts. Scary. Especially when it comes to backpacking gear, individuality has a place.

If the field uniform is going to be worn all day, every day, six days a week during summer camp, you'd better have a washing system set up in the campsite ... or else be getting a bulk discount from Supply! At my camp, the field uniform is worn at evening retreat and at dinner, by everyone. The rest of the time, the staff wears an activity uniform consisting of staff shirts (tees and polos) and khaki shorts. Campers and leaderes can wear whatever they want, within reason (no inappropriate shirts, etc.).

Wow, just wow ... about both the thief's gall and the CO's negligence.

And yet there's also the WC certification form, which states only Bears and Webelos can earn it. See http://www.scouting.org/filestore/cubscouts/pdf/512-028_WB.pdf

Really? OK. Here goes. >> The bottom of scouting.org contains this statement: "© 2011 Boy Scouts of America - All Rights Reserved." On some pages, the year is 2010, but that's minor. >> The bottom of usscouts.org contains this statement: "USSSP is not affiliated with BSA or WOSM and does not speak on behalf of BSA or WOSM." Aside from that, there are the huge differences in design, style and content between the two sites. USSSP looks like the amateur, volunteer-produced site that it is; Scouting.org has had some money put into it, with a professional look and feel. There are tons of private sites out there with information that can sometimes be bad or outdated. Meritbadge.org is another. These sites can also provide a ton of resources and far more useful information than Scouting.org does. Use all of them, but if you're looking for the official word, it's best to go to the official source.

BDPT - I have no idea what you're talking about regarding Venturing, NYLT and the DRP. Would you care to be a bit more specific? About AHG, I only know what I've read, on this forum and in AHG materials. There are no local units in my area. I have not been left with a very positive impression of the organization. Its backers seem to want the BSA to do the heavy lifting. One past thread had someone complaining about how the local council didn't distribute any pamphlets on AHG; this thread was based on the false statement that the MOU allows AHG to use camps and take training. Both are ridiculous ideas based on a pretty incredible sense of entitlement. AGH seems to be fundamentally a religious organization, devoted first and foremost to proselytizing and only secondarily to youth development. My question about the DRP - and it's still an open question - is whether such a group can have a symbiotic relationship with an organization such as BSA that is pluralistic in nature. *Would* the average AHG leader, registered as a BSA Scouter, be able to set their religious calling aside long enough to work with a Muslim or Jewish Scout without talking about "false idols"?

Sorry, didn't mean to say that I thought AHG leaders wouldn't be paying. I was referring to "sponging" in the sense that AHG is an independent organization that presumably can stand on its own two feet. If it can't develop the infrastructure, resources or support to offer leader training, then that's not the BSA's problem to solve. Now, if AHG can't get its act together to offer training to its own leaders, then the leaders can certainly look elsewhere. If they want outdoor training, take a class at REI. If they want a leadership course, take any of the corporate programs out there. If they want to learn about youth development, sign up for a community-college education course. Or they can build a training regime from the ground up, just like BSA did. Heaven knows there are plenty of BSA syllabii and training outlines floating around they can borrow from. First Aid and CPR courses are different. If your organization is opening them up to the public, then of course everyone is eligible to sign up. But WoundedFox's inquiry was about more than just first aid, specifically referring to Wood Badge. There is simply no reason for non-BSA leaders to take Wood Badge. I also believe that allowing AHG or GSUSA or FFA or 4-H leaders into BSA trainings would greatly dilute the value of the training for BSA participants. Trainings require a certain base level of knowledge and experience - whether we're talking about understanding the patrol method or knowing how to pitch a tent - that outsiders don't necessarily have. And the problem I'd see with having AHG leaders register as Scouters would be that the AHG folks might not be able in good conscience to sign the DRP.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

It should be instantly apparent that scouting.org is the official BSA website. usscouts.org is a privately run site that's not always updated or current. But when in doubt, spend a few bucks and pick up a copy of the Requirements book.

Honestly, I doubt you're going to find what you're looking for, WoundedFox. My guess is that the vast majority of councils have not had to deal with AHG yet because it's such a tiny organization. According to AHG, it has only 300 troops across the entire United States. There are none in my BSA council. If you want to promote the idea with your council, go ahead. The best approach would probably be for your CO to do it. But I'd suggest that doing so might open up a whole new can of worms. Are you really willing to open up BSA training courses and council camps to all the other groups that have MOUs (or "Memorandums of Mutual Support") with BSA? The MOU does not make AHG special, despite what its founders and supporters may think. It's on par with the Salvation Army, the American Cadet Alliance, AMVETS, the Knights of Columbus, the Future Fisherman Foundation, the National Urban League and the Islamic Society of North America, just to name a few. As it stands now, there's nothing prohibiting AHG from renting out facilities at your local council camp. That might be a start, showing that there's some interest in using the BSA resources or being true partners. Otherwise, it kind of seems like AHG is looking to sponge off BSA to get its leaders trained.

Here's my feedback, for what it's worth. I have never seen the need for any computer software to "track" or "manage" Scouts. They have their Handbooks, the PLs should know each of his Scouts' skills, abilities and personal goals, and the troop and patrol scribes keep track of any other details. The adults submit advancement reports when a Scout is ready to advance. Unless you have a troop of 100+ Scouts, it can all be done on paper with a minimum of fuss and effort. Never do anything that a Scout can do himself. It applies to paperwork just as much as to setting up a tent.

Skipper - I've heard those called "fastpitch footprints." There's a tarp cut to fit overtop of tent poles, which hook into a groundcloth on the bottom. It all stakes down just like a freestanding tent, only without sides, in essence.

Are you a commissioner or the commissioner? If you're simply on the commissioner's staff, chat with the head commissioner to find out what your basic duties are, and make sure he or she is on board with having you do other things, such as training. There is a basic job description to follow. If you're the head commissioner, you should be attending National Camping School. They shouldn't just be dumping you into the job without preparation. BSA's national camp standards require one commissioner to have current NCS certification (though it's not a mandatory standard). However, I'm fairly certain that there are no more NCS sessions running before August. Commissioners can have other duties, to be sure. During my years on staff, I was a commissioner, but also taught Scoutcraft merit badge classes and taught in the first-year-camper program. Commissioners typically are responsible for unit relations, troubleshooting and problem-solving. They do daily campsite visits, can conduct camp inspections and chat with the leaders. At my camp, the head commissioner also coordinated the daily SPL meeting after lunch, where all the troops sent their top youth leader to coordinate inter-unit programs and the closing campfire. He also was responsible for signing out program materials - if a troop or patrol wanted to borrow bow saws, axes, tents, dutch ovens, etc., they saw the commissioner. And he sat in on the opening and closing nights' leaders' meetings, introduced himself and made sure they knew his metaphorical tent flap was always open. Whether it's a full-time job or not depends on a lot of factors - your camp's geography (will it take you all day to hike around and visit all the troops?), whether you're splitting the job with others, whether you do campsite inspections, etc. In my neck of the woods, the camp commissioner was also third in the camp chain of command. He worked with the camp director to plan out troop campsite assignments and oversaw tent and equipment setup. If the camp director and program director were out of camp simultaneously for some reason, the commissioner was acting camp director. So it can be a lot of responsibility. If you really want to help with training, though, I'd suggest sticking to the basics first. Make sure they have YPT, the online intro courses, first aid, CPR. That's the really important stuff.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Easy solution to the Sliding Slide Conundrum: Take a rubber band or metal twist-tie and secure the neckerchief first. Then slide the metal slide over it, slipping one of the slide ends through the band or through a loop in the twist-tie. The neckerchief is secure, and the slide is hooked in place. Or just make your own slides, den or individualized.

My local camp used to run a special volunteer-directed "Trail to Eagle" weeklong camp the week after the regular summer camp sessions were over. It was all provisional, and pretty neat to get to meet a bunch of fellow older Scouts from all over the council. When that stopped, the program was folded into the regular summer camp and renamed Eagle Base. The provisional troop was housed at a special campsite near the lodge where they took classes, in an area separated from the rest of the camp, so it was still something kind of special. Now, anyone who meets the age requirements can take Eagle Base classes while attending with your troop. You can still attend provisionally, but it's not a special Eagle Base troop.

You'd probably want to get your hands on a program director's NCS book, since your concern is less about logistics and more about program. But for this type of event, it's not really necessary, IMHO. You're basically looking at a one-day event - maybe a day and a half if people stay overnight. You don't need to go really heavy on the theme. You certainly can if you want to and your resources permit, but it's not a necessity. My advice would be to start figuring out some key items and map out out your program offerings from there. >> People. How many volunteers do you have to run the program? What are their backgrounds and areas of expertise? How many Scouts and family members are you expecting? How many of them are first-time campers or new Scouts with little to no outdoor experience? >> Location. What resources do you have on-site? If you're holding it at your council camp, can you use their knot-tying ropes, fire buckets and compasses? Are there pavilions, or will you need to set up tarps to provide sheltered program areas in case of rain? >> Topics. Based on your volunteer list and on-site resources, brainstorm a list of program offerings that can be run in 15-minute to half-hour segments. Don't try to re-invent the wheel. There's knot-tying, firebuilding, a nature hike, some sort of durable take-home craft, making GORP, etc. Most camps and Scouting volunteers should be able to do most of those things pretty easily. >> Scheduling. Look at your site map and figure out how long it would take to get from one program area to the next. Then decide if you want to do block scheduling, where each group moves on to another site in order, or a free-for-all, where anyone can do anything any time, first-come, first-serve. If the former, carve out enough time between for each group to travel. >> Volunteers. Once you've got your program outline and know the stuff you want to offer, broaden your volunteer base. Contact the Order of the Arrow, campmasters, summer camp staff, and ask them if they want to come out and help for a day in exchange for a free meal. For specific theme activity ideas, do a search here for "cub camp theme." You'll have to do some sorting, but you'll find a ton of ideas.