SemperParatus

Warning - This is a long, rambling post that represents a work-in-process in my life. All of this talk about God in scouting has really got me thinking lately. My religious training and experience is entirely Christian, spanning Roman Catholicism, Presbyterian and Evangelical. I make it a point to get into Gods word everyday in seeking a deeper and more meaningful relationship with Him. Prayer is a big part of my life, but what I have come to realize is that it is in my interaction with other people that the glory of God is revealed. I am a woeful sinner and know my salvation is only through the beautiful sacrificial gift of Jesus Christ. I cannot fathom the ugliness of my sins when compared to the incredible majesty, righteousness and perfection of God. Sometimes it is easy to think Im not all that bad, especially when I compare myself to the nuts on Jerry Springer. But then it strikes me time and again, God is not comparing me to the nuts on Jerry Springer it is against his perfection that we are all compared and all fall short. We all fall short, regardless of whether our sin is just a little bitty sin or a great big fat one. I dont think God cares about how we as humans view the severity of our sins and rank them on our grading scale of good to bad. He just loves each one of us, like a father, and wants each one of us to know and love Him back. Some choose to turn their backs on God, denouncing his existence. God loves these wayward sheep all the more and gives us all the most simplistic command to do the same and love one another not just those that agree with us and think like us and act like us and look like us but all people. When Jesus came to earth, he didnt hang with the priests and the religious behind the temple walls, he hung with the lost the nonbelievers, tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers and a whole host of outcasts. The model of Jesus is one of living in the world in all of its ugliness and bringing joyful love into relationships with all people, not cloistering yourself behind closed doors. Sometimes, God becomes an afterthought in my life, as the pressures of living crowd into my mind. Looking around, I am sure that is the case with the majority of humanity. But God is no afterthought. He is the creator of the heavens, the earth and you. He is holy and perfect beyond our feeble human comprehension. He knows you better than you know yourself and has incredible plans for your eternal life. And yet, somehow we believe that we are honoring this incomparable, supreme power that can reverse the powers of the universe with a simple wink of an eye through thoughtless platitudes of reference to Him in pledges of allegiance, scout promises and scout laws. To me, it feels more and more like giving a short shrift to God. Thinking as long as we add the word God to our dutiful human professions, we are being right with God is a far cry from being right with God. It is mere talk and talk is cheap. God doesnt want our platitudes. God wants us, all of us and everything we do. Does God care about the BSA? I doubt it. Does the BSA care about God? Well, the folks at National certainly want to maintain the perception that it does. But isnt it just that, all impression with no substance. Someone indicated the thought that scouting would be shallow without God in it. God is in it because people are in it, regardless of whether we say a scout is reverent or not. In fact, the wishy-washy quasi-religion of the BSA which says all gods are okey-dokey may be offensive to the one true God. Just what is it we are doing when we recite the promise or the law or the pledge of allegiance, with the miniscule reference to God? I would venture to say there is the brief split-second when the word is uttered (typically mindlessly) and we move on. Does that really honor the omnipotent creator of the universe and your loving father? Is that what He REALLY wants? Is that giving him the respect and love that He wants from you? To me, its just another word to say, the real meaning and expression is in my heart not in my mouth. If anything it seems like the BSA is contributing to a shallowing of God. Man, we should be falling on our faces in complete humility and worship of this incredible being that has given us life, love and each other. Instead, we have somehow equated mumbling a few god words now and then as a religious expression of our deep devotion to Him. I would venture to say that the average troop spends less than 1 hour a year (and thats generous) engaged in some kind of devotion to an any god. Is that the best we can offer? If we cant do it right, then why bother pretending to do it at all. I think God deserves better. He would be honored more by our following the model of Jesus Christ in our actions and relationships then by our mere words and professions. I think that is where the BSA has a disconnect. Saying god once in a while and having people sign a statement that they recognize a god is just fine and dandy at a surface level, but that is all it isjust skimming the surface. If we want a relationship with God, we need to establish relationships with his children (you and me). Deep, loving and caring relationships that goes beyond the surface of what we look like, where we come from, what we believe in, who or what we have sex with, and which god (if any) we worship. If the BSA truly wants to promote a belief in God, then there is only one way to do it and that is by not hiding behind closed doors and mindlessly speaking a few phrases, but opening those doors wide so that it is possible for everyone to come together in a deeper understanding of one another based on mutual love and respect. Im not sure this completely captures my thoughts, but it will have to do for now. I am sure some will have a field day picking this apart from either a theological point of view or a practical perspective. Have at it, because I suppose in the end it really does not matter at all.

Our troop uses scout accounts. At the request of an adult, we will either set up a separate account for the adult or run their activity through their son's account. Most people just choose to run all family activity through a single account.

I'll answer your question...if you answer mine.

"Will it be fair to cause a large number of families, Churches and others to withdraw from scouting in order to Validate a very few members of our society." I just want to know what YOU would do, not what you think others may or may not do. Thank you for your response...look forward to scoutin' with ya! Many folks here have very strong opinions on these two issues. My question is intended to ascertain just how strong those opinions may be if it came down to a personal choice between the BSA policies and one's personal opinions with respect to membership requirements.

Someone from national may or may not be reading this forum. Poll tally so far: Continue - 6 Quit - 0 Wait and see - 0 (Note - some posts do not reflect a discernible answer to the question posed)

I agree with BW and EIKY'mon, this is not a 'patrol activity' - it is a troop outing. Having scouts run around over a couple square mile area would make me want to have as many adults present as possible, not just the bare minimum. I like EIKY'mon's approach of a HQ area during this 'very wide area game'.

NEWS FLASH! (hypothetical) At its annual meeting, the national BSA leadership has decided to withdraw its membership ban on homosexuals and atheists, effective immediately. As part of this decision, the BSA will allow units to opt to be chartered directly by the BSA, bypassing the Chartered Organization structure. In addition, references to God will be deleted from all scouting declarations (scout promise) and BSA literature. The twelfth point of the scout law has been changed from 'reverent' to 'thoughtful'. *** With this hypothetical, my questions is...What would you do? Would you continue in scouting? Would you quit? Would you 'wait and see'? *** For me, I would continue in scouting. The scouting experience is so vast and wonderful, these two issues pale in comparison to the tremendous benefits that scouting provides to me as a volunteer leader and the scouts with whom I am associated. As a devout Christian, I do not 'do scouting' for the religious experience. I do it to give back to the community, share my experience to help youths grow into solid citizens, and have fun. I find God everywhere and in everyone and I don't need the BSA to dictate that aspect of my life. While I believe there are legitimate issues with respect to homosexuals, I trust that the youth protection guidelines and educational initiatives, as well as plain old common sense, will ensure that appropriate safeguards are employed.

Thank you for sharing this tragic story. May his family find some comfort in knowing that he lived and died in devoted service to others...and there is no greater reward than that.

Now that you are aware of the declaration of religious principles, I guess the only thing left is for you to be true to yourself. Afterall, that is all that really matters in the end, isn't it. You recite the pledge of allegiance and scout promise, sign some papers and have joined an organization that requires as part of its membership your recognition of God. Granted, you could just continue to go along saying these things while ascribing no meaning to them. If that makes you feel hypocritical, I can certainly understand. If I were in your position, I would seek a different avenue to employ your talents and energy in helping youth. While that may mean the loss of a committed adult volunteer, the BSA is simply not open to all. Good luck.

Gee Beav, sounds like you need to take him up on his offer to be the Scoutmaster. Using service projects as a negative motivator is silly. Community service should be ingrained into the troop as part of its being, not just counted in minute increments for rank advancement.

Welcome...I look forward to you joining the conversation. Good luck as Scoutmaster.

A federal tax identification number (aka federal employer identification number or FEIN) is obtained by filing a Form SS-4 with the IRS - this can be done over the phone as well in a matter of minutes. HOWEVER, because a scout unit has no separate legal existence (e.g., incorporated) separate and apart from the chartered organization (it is merely an extension or separate budget item for the CO), the IRS will not grant a scouting unit a FEIN. To clarify, tax-exempt status requires first of all, separate legal existence, and second the granting of exempt status by the IRS following the submission of an application by the organization, along with a $600 user fee. Note - tax-exempt 501©(3) status does not itself make it possible for an organization to receive deductible charitable donations - that benefit is conferred on an organization under IRC Section 170 which defines those organizations that constitute public charities and/or private foundations. Scout units may receive donations that are deductible by the donor, only through the public charity status of its CO. As I said, you need to get the Chartered Organization's tax id number. Your unit cannot get a tax id number.

You use the tax id number of your chartered organization. Ask your CO for that. A scouting unit is not a separate legal entity and so, does not have its own federal identification number or state sales tax exemption number.

I believe that each Council is required to file a Form 990 with the IRS, which must be made available for public inspection at the council offices upon request. The 990 requires disclosure of compensation and benefits to the highest paid employees. Here is the IRS' public inspection rule: "Public inspection and distribution of applications for tax exemption and annual information returns of tax-exempt organizations. Under Regulations sections 301.6104(d)-1 through 301.6104(d)-3, a tax-exempt organization must: Make its application for recognition of exemption and its annual information returns available for public inspection without charge at its principal, regional and district offices during regular business hours. Make each annual information return available for a period of 3 years beginning on the date the return is required to be filed (determined with regard to any extension of time for filing) or is actually filed, whichever is later. Provide a copy without charge, other than a reasonable fee for reproduction and actual postage costs, of all or any part of any application or return required to be made available for public inspection to any individual who makes a request for such copy in person or in writing (except as provided in Regulations sections 301.6104(d)-2 and -3)." If the Council refuses then they are breaking the law. Nevertheless, you can always get a copy from the IRS: Here's how: "Use Form 4506-A to request A copy of an exempt or political organization's return, report, notice, or exemption application; An inspection of a return, report, notice, or exemption application at an IRS office. The IRS can provide copies of exempt organization returns on a compact disk (CD-ROM). Requesters can order the complete set (all Forms 990 and 990-EZ or all Forms 990-PF filed for a year) or a partial set by state or by month. For more information on the cost and how to order CD-ROMs, call the TEGE Customer Account Services toll-free number (1-877-829-5500) or write to the IRS in Cincinnati, OH at the address in General Instruction A." Have fun.

Invest in Quickbooks (business version of Quicken)...it is much better and easier to use than Peachtree.

Hi! Do you actually eat snakes?

Somewhere along the line the expectation has been set that its okay not to show up. The SM and SPL need to reset that expectation. Each PL needs to be aware that this is part of their position of responsibility and they are expected to attend. If they cannot make a meeting, then they need a very good reason. If that night has recurring conflicts for them, then they should not seek to be a patrol leader. When we start our PLC meetings, roll is taken. Anyone that is not there is immediately called to find out why they are not there. In some cases, it was simply forgotten (and the parent drives them over within 10 minutes). A couple of phone calls usually helps to get the message across that attendance is important and absences are being noted. Like Elizabeth, we do the pizza thing but that's not what brings them...it is just a 'reward' for serving their troop and patrol. Good luck as ASPL.

What a bright idea...a soy candle? Are they edible too? I would hate for them to give me heart burn.

All good answers. It is very easy in a large troop to overwhelm the quartermaster. That is why our troop has 2-3 of them. We have it set up that they work with the APLs, who have as their responsibility the patrol equipment. That way on any given trip we have 6-8 scouts with 'quartermastering' responisbility at different levels (patrol and troop) and in different capacities (load/unload, camp setup, cleaning station setup/take down, etc.) The more scouts that are exposed to equipment care, transport, storage and usage, the easier it is for them to make the transition to the troop leadership role.

Turn the other cheek. You are not going to remove this woman from the pack. You can follow the others that are leaving for greener pastures, or tough it out - making your son's and his den's scouting experience the best it can possibly be. If this woman is your son's den leader, then maybe you request a transfer to a different den if she is that much of a problem for you. Welcome to the forum.(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

What works? A big shoe box - size 14s are better than size 9s. We had some boys decide to go solo - pack their food, space blanket, etc in an individual box. We had scouts in a couple patrols decide to split it up - one box had all their shelter materials, a couple of boxes had all their food. In the end, I don't think it matters - there is only so much space. Just about everyone had a cheap space blanket - those that didn't made a ground cover out of natural materials. There was a couple of kids that cooked using sterno, but most of it was dry food (we did cheat and have water coolers available so that at least no one became dehydrated). A few people were smart enough to glue some padding to the bottom of their boxes for use as pillows. The lid makes a good tray, cutting board, rain shelter, fan, frisbee, etc. Our activity that weekend was an innertube trip and historic site visits. Have fun!

A, Sorry to hear that your troop has such a 'policy'. Having been involved in a couple troops with over 100 scouts and a new one that has grown to 60 in a short time, I know exactly where you are coming from. It really needs to be a balance. We always tried to schedule 3-4 trips a year with unlimited space availability. Where space is at a premium, sign-up limits must be used on a first come-first serve basis. In such cases, we would look to reserve a 4:1 scout/adult ratio (the minimum number to afford transportation). Most people are pretty reasonable about it when they realize the difficulties of booking space. As long as the parents that wanted to camp got to go on 3-4 trips a year with their sons they were pretty much happy. Patrol campouts are always an option, and quite frankly are a lot more fun. Having a hard and fast rule is never a good thing and I can certainly understand why some famililies may choose to go elsewhere.

"In the past year I've decided to stop trying to organize the adults and focus on the only thing that mattered the scouts" Words to live by. Welcome to the forum, looking forward to your stories.

Welcome and best of luck in your role as Cubmaster.

Glad to meet ya! A college student helping out a pack...that is so nice. Be careful though - don't let this forum keep you from your studies.