SeattlePioneer

Perhaps it's like at Lake Woebegone --- All the Units, Districts and Council are above average. Seattle Pioneer

Hello, Student, Having adult Boy Scouts is a common enough problem. Your first line of defense is a Scoutmaster who will keep the adults out of the hair of the Scouts. But other leaders, such as Troop Committee members, can work to minimize this problem. One way might be to encourage the adult Scouters to form their own patrol, their own campsite, cook their own meals and have their own activities. Volunteering the adult patrol for a good trail maintenance project on the afternoon of a camping trip ought to leave them with less energy to interfere with the Scouts. And adults need organization to go on camping trips, too, so it's a legitimate function. The adult patrol can have its own signups, menues, rosters and so on, as well as being developing it's own projects. Your comments on the need for adult leaders to be constantly developing new leaders and leadership in depth are very well taken. That's what the Chartered Organization Rep and Troop Committee Chair ought to be doing (perhaps you can get him to work on this instead of playing Boy Scout?). Unfortunately, it's all too human to worry about the problems that confront you today and ignore the ones that will be crippling you six months or a year from now. Seattle Pioneer

Thank you for the aditional referece, Scout Nut. Your point is well taken, and you make a good point in distinguishing between conventional cooking around fires and heat, and preparing foil dinners, which can be done at a distance from that added risk. I hadn't appreciated the reason why foil dinners might be favored for Cub Scout meals ---now I do. And you let me off the hook of accomodating Cub Scouts while cooking breakfast. I wasn't really eager to do that, but it seemed like it might be a good Cub Scouting practice. So what I'll aim to do is to involve the Webelos Scouts in helping to cook the pancakes. The Pack will have a passel of new Webelos boys Sunday morning, and giving them the privilege of helping cook breakfast would be good. Unless we recruit a new Webelos leader at our parent meeting Saturday, we wont have an official leader for me to consult. My preference would be to have the Webelos acting as a Den while cooking, under the direction of their adult leader. The Boy Scouts and adult leaders could then work the Webelos into cooking in a structured way. As I think about it, we could probably come up with some other breakfast tasks for Cub Scouts, such as mixing up concentrated Orange juice and perhaps helping to serve food. That should give the Cub Scouts the sense of participation I'd like to see and still keep them away from the fires. Thank you for contributing to our Cub Pack overnight, Scout Nut. Seattle Pioneer

In the spirit of cultivating your chartered organization, as Unit Commissioner I attended the last meeting of the year of the PTSA that charters the Cub Pack. I did so in uniform as is my habit. I shook the hand of the new PTSA President who was elected, and reasured the PTSA that the Cub Pack planned to put on the PTSA's spaghetti dinner/fund raiser in October that kicks off the elementary schools Open House. Last year, this was almost cancelled due to lack of volunteers to run it. This year, I'm expecting that the Cub Pack will do an impressive job in running the event before the whole school, doing everyone a lot of good in the process. I had to duck out a little early to then attend the District Committee monthly meeting. A good evening of Scouting. Seattle Pioneer

Well, Tj, you raise the usual critique of BSA one more time. For me, this gets down to the question of whether the idea of "timeless values" has any meaning, or whether we are stuck with the idea of living by "fashionable values" defined by certain academic, political and legal elites, which they can impose upon the American people at will. The question is ---who will rule and by what values? After becoming enthralled by fashionable left wing ideas in the 1960s, I wound up seeing the damage they often did to people and society, and went back to the idea of "timeless values" in time to support Ronald Reagan in 1984. Coincidentally, I had become a Scoutmaster by that time. These two things were related to my decision to support the idea of "timeless values," or at least values that changed for different reasons and were controlled by different political and social groups. While you declare BSA policies as being "bigoted," I think that is just plain wrong. I presume you are referring to policies that exclude atheists and homsexuals from Scouting. You are welcome to your opinions on such subjects, but the BSA has good reasons for continuing such policies ---it's not a matter of blind prejudice at all. Furthermore, I would suppose that you would be in favor of diversity in American society. BSA policies ARE diversity these days, when too much government policy is focussed on using government to enforce social norms people and organizations should be deciding for themselves. As to corruption within BSA ---fix it. It's not something I support. Report things honestly and let the chips fall where they may. In short, while you are entitled to promote your values and ideas, you are not entitled to impose them on the BSA in my opinion. The fact that you cannot seems to lead you to intemperate criticisms of the BSA and it's leadership. Despite that, I would be glad to work with you in Scouting. Indeed, I work with an atheist who is defacto Pack Committee chair. He earned his Eagle as a youth but is not willing to sign the BSA adult application due to the religious test in it. He doesn't object to the occasional prayers occasionally used as a part of the Cub Scout program, and has been a key person in rebuilding the Pack. I regret that he cannot become a registered Scout leader. But if Scouting were to permit that, it would inevitably be led to exclude prayers and religious elements from Scouting, in order not to offend atheists in the program. The religious elements provide a useful guide for many in raising children, and I don't want to see them discarded for these reasons. In my view, this is an example not of unreasoning bigotry, but carefull consideration of competing values. To describe this kind of decision making as amounting to unreasoning bigotry is simply overwrought and absurd. Seattle Pioneer

Wow, Eamonn, that story of the Death Of A Scouting Program is a real downer, and too common. While the Scoutmaster seemed to have everything arranged to his taste, it seems that the Troop Commmittee Chair failed to provide the leadership necessary to bring the Troop into a new generation of leadership. This is 'way too common. Last fall, the DE asked me to work with just such a unit. The Cub Master had done "everything" which meant that few other people had done much of anything. We managed to continue an excellent program and recruit some fine new leaders. This weekend at the Cub Pack Overnight, we have an hour of Scout training layed on for parents, followed by some intensive efforts to recruit new adult leaders to carry out the Pack program. If it works the way I imagine it will, we will have rebuilt the Pack program on a solid and broadly based foundation of leaders. This leads me to suppose that units MUST expect most parents to take leadership responsibilities in their unit. They must do something and be ready to do what they are asked to do by unit leaders. If that isn't the way things work, you are setting yourself up for failure as the leadership group becomes smaller and smaller and finally collapses. It may be that unit leaders will decide to give a few families a pass on leadership obligations when there is a reason to do so. But that shouldn't extend to more than a handful. Now here's a question: if you agree with that expectation, what means would you use to enforce it? Would you be willing to tell a family that begs off from contributing that they will either help or be dropped from the unit? Seattle Pioneer

Hello, Scout Nut! Thanks for your comment. I've reviewed the Guide To Safe Scouting Camping Section with respect to Cub Pack Overnights. I see nothing there that places blanket restrictions on Cub Scout cooking. The BALOO training I took last month used foil dinners as an example of a good program activity for Cub Scouts. I'm not familiar with the reference you cite which places blanket restrictions on cooking by Cub Scouts. Unless I am missing something G2SS permits Cub Scout outdoor cooking. Of course, supervision is critical and good judgement on what is done is necessary. Supervising Cub Scout pancake cooking closely seems like a good and safe program unless I am missing something in G2SS. WDLeader --- thank you for giving me the benefit of your experiences. I agree that cooking meat for breakfast is time consuming, so my plan is to use link sausages, dump them all in a Dutch Oven first thing, and expect they will be cooked after an hour or so. By reducing the charcoal, the sausages should remain warm and ready to be served until the end of breakfast. So the primary thing to be cooked will be pancakes. I'm expecting to get up to do that at 5:30, getting the Boy Scouts and Scouters up at 6 Ayem, with the aim of having breakfast ready to serve at 7:00 Ayem, and probably serving until 8 or so. Comments on this schedule are solicited. I am an experienced Dutch Oven cook. Seattle Pioneer

Oooohhhh. LOTS of good commments on this thread. Eagle Dad's observation that pressure for advancement was different 25 years ago is supported by my own recollections. I was SM of a troop twenty odd years ago, and I don't recall that the idea of First Class in One Year was discussed as a desireable Troop goal or objective. Now it seems to be a very widespread expectation. Frankly, I tended to be unhappy back in The Day with how fast the Scouts were advancing. But when they did advance, they had learned the skills and practiced them thoroughly as a general rule. In particular, I remember one Scout who wwas stuck at the Ternderfoot rank because he was afraid of swimming. He had a physical handicap, but his parents assured me that it didn't prevent the boy from learning to swim ---the primary barrier was the boy's own fears about swimming. I remember he was reluctant to even walk out on the dock at summer camp. The Troop liked to go swimming at a pool, and did so every couple of months. So this Scout got encouragement to swim, and saw the fun other Scouts were having. This went on for several years. The last outing I was on with the Troop before I left, I was really pleased to see this boy swimming along with everyone else. He had decided to overcome his fears and take swimmming lessons, and recognizing that advancement to Second Class was more satisfying than any Eagle advancement. These days, I buy into the general aim of supporting advancement to First Class in a year. As I understand it, boys who do so are more likely to remain in Scouting. I'm pleased to say that the opportunities to do so are abundantly available in the Troop program, but few boys are accepting the responsibility to advance or willing to teach and sign off requirements for junior Scouts. What I've done is to go through Scout Handbooks after outings and sign off requirements that I've seen the boys complete. That tends to leave a checkboard pattern of unmet requirements that are a barrier to advancement, with most requirements met but one or two not completed. I like Nlscouter's suggestion to use a Board of Review as a way of identifying requirements that boys need to complete and to counsel and encourage them on completing those requirements. It would be a way of re emphasizing to the Scouts that advancement is supposed to be their responsibility. Very good idea. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting observation. I was somewhat suprised to discover that the Troop I work with earned the Quality Unit Award, but didn't inquire into the reasons more closely. But what you describe stinks. It's not only dishonest, but fails to use this program as a way to encourage good Scouting practices and to separate quality units from those that are or perhaps will be struggling units begfore long. I'd begin by discussing this issue with your District Commissioner and District Committee Chair, and this is the right time to do it. The idea would be to revamp expectations regarding the Quality Unit Award when rechartering training is provided, with an emphasis on deciding whether units have fairly met the requirements. Talking to the DC and DCC ought to be easy enough to do ---they ought to be pretty accessable. An alternative would be to attend your monthly meeting of District leaders and raise the issue there. At least in our District, District leaders meet once/month, beginning as a group and then breaking up into specialized groups. You'd be welcome to raise such issues there, I'd suppose. Personally, I wouldn't attack the DE. I'd simply point out that there is a failure to emphasize the need to fairly meet the QU requirements, and suggest that this be emphasized when rechartering is discussed. I'd emphasize that QU points units in the direction of good Scouting practices, but not if its claimed or awarded regardless of the program content. I'd also emphasize that QU ought to be a useful guide to identifying which units have a healthy program and which need help. In other words, there are good, practical reasons for the District to emphasize that units honestly evaluate whether they have met QU standards. Seattle Pioneer

Yes, Bob White, purposely ignoring rules can be a function of good leadership and an obligation of good leadership too, for the same reasons I gave. Good leadership is knowing when following rules is wise, and when ignoring them is wise. I don't know how you can misconstrue things that are so plainly written, but you do it over and over again. Seattle Pioneer

The District Commissioner tossed out an interesting idea on how to help struggling units hen a shortage of Unit Commissioners is a fact of life. He suggested appointing an ad hoc team of four experienced Unit Commissioners to work with a struggling Pack or Troop for a few months, trying to help resolve serious problems and get the unit functioning effectively again within 3-4 months. The issue of whether this would be seen as interfereing by units was discussed. Firstly, these are units that don't have Unit Commissioners now ---so having a team involved is partly a way of getting more from the scarce UC resources available, rather than trying to overwhelm or take over a unit. Secondly, units would be offered this kind of help, rather than simply having it assigned. So they would be agreeing to this approach. Apparently the Troop has some adult leadership that hasn't been working well. Several outings have been cancelled at the last minute, and now Scouts lack confidence that activities will actually take place. This was one example of problems in the Troop. It sounded like an interesting idea. One team of four was appointed, which will be working with a struggling Troop. I'll be looking forward to see how this initial experiment works out. More next month, I expect. Seattle Pioneer

The Guide to Safe Scouting makes a distinction between Cub Scout Family Camping and Pack Overnights. The distinction seems to be that Cub Scout Family Camping has families in charge of their equipment, meals and program, with the Cub pack involved only as a secondary resource, if at all. Indeed, it looks as though Cub Scout Family Camping could be a single family camping at a BSA camp by themselves, without any other families being present. Cub Pack overnights seem to make the Cub Pack responsible for program, activities and meals, although the Pack can choose to delegate those functions or responsibilities to families if they choose to do so. There are probably other places where these distinctions are discussed in more detail. I invite anyone who can provide more detailed references, or comments on my own limited understanding of the differences involved. Seattle Pioneer

I appreciate the comments offered in reply to my post. My background is primarily in the Boy Scouts, where a lot of emphasis is placed on having boys responsible for cooking, and emphasizing cooking by patrols as a general rule. Neither I nor the rest of the Pack leadership has led a Pack Overnight before. So I come to this with that bias, plus the recommendations made in BALOO training. As I read the Cub Scout Program, there is a distinction made between Pack Overnights and Family Camping. This campout is a Pack Overnight, which as I understand it means that the Pack has the primary responsibility to provide the leadership and program, not families. In a Family Camping situation, families would have the primary responsibility for providing leadership and devising their own programs for the most part. In that spirit, we are doing foil dinners for the Cub Scouts and any of their siblings ---foil pizzas to be exact. The aim here is to encourage Scouts to develope some cooking experience and skills, and to have the Boy Scouts providing as much of the training and support as possible, with adult Scouters always present to make sure safety and cleanliness rules are observed, and to help out if needed. From the comments offered, our breakfast plans seem a little less learning oriented. Part of that is that we will be cooking for adults as well as Cub Scouts, which places more emphasis on production. Also, people are likelier to be HUNGRY in the morning! Adults and Cub Scouts may be impatient with too much Playing Around With Pancakes. That's one reason that setting up a stove and letting Cub Scouts make their own pancakes for "seconds" seemed like something to consider. Having been fed once, Cub Scouts who want to fix more pancakes for themselves or their parents would have a place to experiment and learn the art of pouring out pancakes. WDleader makes a good point that this stove position could be set at a height that would be suitable for Cub Scouts, and of course suitably supervised. Oak Tree reported that his Pack does most cooking at the den level, apparently with families taking a lot of the responsibility. We considered these approaches, but rejected them. Frankly, I just don't know who has the skills and equipment to do this kind of thing, and relying upon families might not work very well. Also, with the Pack in charge, we can run the program to give the Scouts the opportunity to do and learn as much as possible (one of my main aims). Family camping is usually about parents doing for children, in my experience. Perhaps Oak Tree can describe how dens and families are used in cooking meals in more detail, and the advantages and disadvantages of that approach. Scout Nut suggests that families from different dens should inteionally be mixed together. I react rather negatively to that. My theory is that Cub Scouts and their parents are used to working together as a Den, and that this history should be encouraged and strengthened when possible. I'd prefer to have Cub Scouts and their parents eat together as Dens, and do other program activities together as Dens whenever possible. My theory is that that will reinforce habits of cooperation and self discipline learned in the Den program. We are going to be encouraging Cub Scouts and their parents to camp more or less together, for the same reasons. Any comments on whether we should place more emphasis on having Cub Scouts flipping pancakes even if that migh slow breakfast somewhat? We might try to work Cub Scouts into the production process once we get things working properly. Part of my uncertainty is that I'm not used to having the responsibility of fixing breakfast for fifty people or more. I want to feed people properly AND have it a good Cub Scout experience as well. I don't have sufficient experience to be confident of how to do all those things with confidence. I again solicit more comments and ideas on our meal plans, and I thank those who have offered comments so far. Seattle Pioneer

As usual, I again find myself disagreeing with those who suppose Scouting is mostly about following rules. Scouting involves learning the skills and techniques of leadership, which can and often does involve following rules. But where do the rules come from? They are created by human beings as general guides to action and behavior. They are not necessarily complete guides to action by themselves. Leadership involves wisdom and good judgement in devising and applying rules. A person who contents themselves with rigidly applying rules they have learned is not a good leader. Personally, I consider the Scouting program as written to be far better than any I could come up with on my own, so I have a large bias in favor of following the Scouting program as it is written. But when there is good reason to do so, I'll deviate from the Scouting program as written and recommmended. I think that is why great emphasis is placed upon selecting a suitrable person as Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is ideally a person who has skills and knowledge, but also wisdom in deciding how to deal with people and apply rules. Blind or rigid application of rules is not good Scouting practice, in my book. Seattle Pioneer

All very good points, Dan --- although it's unsettling to consider just how broad the Membership Committee responsibilities are. When the DE pitched me on the idea of being Membership Committee Chair last fall, I begged off after getting a BSA booklet on the District Membership function! However, the Council has a program to recruit and train Cub Pack Membership Committees to perform recruiting this fall. The DE then sort of slid me in to working on that program, and then said "heck," if you are doing the job, you deserve the title!" of Membership Committee Chair. There seems to be a leap or two of logic in that line of reasoning, but as I said the DE is a master of getting people to do things that need to be done! Anyway, you are right. As I imagine the job, I will be aiming to get my volunteers to the training offered by the Council in doing setting up these Cub Pack Membership Committees. I will then be working with those volunteers to get as many Packs as possible to get volunteers to the training and then support them as they do the recruiting function this fall. After that, I will be aiming to keep my volunteers as a District level membership committee, and to keep those doing recruiting at the Pack level involved in planning recruiting in the spring, and hopefully bringing some of those people into working on the District membership commmittee as well. I've floundered around trying to figure out good recruiting methods, and I figure I'm learning, slowly. If I can help other interested people become succesful more easily and rapidly, I'll be happy. But since it's a relatively specialized function, learning needs to be ongoing, rather than episodic in the fall and spring. Developing and conserving those skills at the District and unit level ---that's my aim. So at this point I'm not worrying about all the tasks listed in the guidebooks for a District Membership Chair. I'm concentrating on what's before me, which I ought to be able to do. Anyway, we'll see. Thanks again for your encouragement. Seattle Pioneer

The Pack I work with as UC is having it's annual spring campout Saturday-Sunday. The Cubs will be making foil pizzas with the assistance of the Boy Scouts for dinner. Breakfast is going to be for the whole camp, adults included. 21 Cub Scouts are registered, six Boy Scouts ---I haven't been given a count on adults yet, but figure fifty or so for breakfast? (not everyone is staying overnight). In line with BALOOO training, the plan is to keep things simple, with hotcakes, sausage, hot chocolate milk and orange juice being on the menue. With a large group, I'm planning to bake all the link sausage in a Dutch Oven which would be simpler than frying them up. My original plan was to have the Boy Scouts and newly crossed over Webelos Scouts do the cooking for breakfast. Breakfast for fifty should be a good experience for them. On the other hand, I'm wondering if I should make an effort to let the Cub Scouts do some pancake flipping on their own. We are going to have several stoves and griddles for pancakes, and there is no reason one of those couldn't be reserved for Cub Scouts who'd like to bake their own. A second possibility would be to let those who want seconds cook the additional pancakes they want. Of course, such cooking will be supervised by either responsible Boy Scouts or adults. Ideally, each Den would cook their own breakfast, but that seemed too complicated. Advice from those who are veterans of Cub Pack overnight camping trips is solicited. One type of camp breakfast for large groups involves baking hashed brown potatoes, eggs, meat and everything for breakfast together in a Dutch Oven. That simplifies cooking and would make this less labor intensive, but pancakes sounded more fun this time. Has anyone used this kind of meal for a Cub Pack breakfast or have other menue recommendations? Seattle Pioneer

Thank you for the encouraging words, dkurtenbach. Unfortunately, I don't think it's reasonable to throw the burden of recruiting staffers back to the DE. He thre it to me to get rid of some responsibility! I have no experience doing this kind of leadership job, and I've tended to be the do-it-all-yourself kind of leader because I wasn't comfortable putting the arm on people to get them to do things I wanted them to do. But I have to recognize that doing it all yourself is a poor way to do things, for obvious reasons. Among the things Scouting needs the most are people who can get other people to do things --- get boys to joijn Scouting. Get adults to help with program and activities. These things are the key to renewing Scouting all the time. As I noted, my DE did give m,e the names of a couple of people to pitch to help me. He also suggested that I find some people in the Pack for which I'm Unit Commissioner to help me out. I'm doing exactly that. If I succeed, there will be some new people exposed to District level activities and programs, and people with new Scouting leadership experience. Surely that's better than depending on the DE to flog a couple of "regulars" to do yet another chore. Besides, if a Membership Chair who is responsible for recruiting new people can't recruit some people to help him, he's probably not suited for the job, don't you think? I saw a training program in a catalog for national Scout training once --- it was titled "Working Through Volunteers" or something like that. As I recall, it as about just this kind of thing, delegating reasonably complicated responsibilities to new people who would be expected to make some significant part of the resources they would need to do the job. If my foggy memory is correct, this is one of the methods Scouting teaches people in order to get things done. That's pretty much true on the unit level, too. Leaders there are encouraged to identify the best person for a job that needs to be done and then find methods to get that person to do the job. Same thing, pretty much. That's the theory I'm working with right now, anyway. With this theory, I don't have to feel sorry for myself! Seattle Pioneer

Hello, DK! Very interesting post on the weaknesses of appointing one person to do a complicated task with the expectation that he will be able to recruit the additional help he needs to do the job properly. Interesting, because I've just been made the "Key person" in charge of a task like that. It's a position I turned down six months ago, but recently found I'd been appointed to when my name appeared as Membership Committee Chair in the program at the District Recognition Dinner! Actually, that was a great introduction in how to recruit the help you need! Judging from some of the comments at the District Recognition Dinner, the DE is an ARTIST in recruiting himself the help he needs to get things done. My reaction has been to recognize that I have two choices: do everything myself or use pretty much the same methods to get other people to help me. I'm going to try to choose option #2. The DE did give me the names of a couple of people who may be willing to help me, and I'll contact them. I also have three names from the Cub Pack I work with of parents who need to be helping us out. So if I can do the job of being a District level leader, I will be able to recruit people from the grass roots of Scouting and put them to work doing District level kinds of work. This could be good for them and good for the District, too. That's not to say it's comfortable to put people in that position. I'm not comfortable, and it's a large part of the reason why I turned the DE down when he asked me to do it. But I'll do my best and give it a try. If I fail, I'll probably be off the hook in the future. Unfortunately, if I succeed...... Seattle Pioneer

Yes, I think talking over such issues with other Scouters is an important part of decision making. It will gain additional information on a person's behavior, and add additional ideas on the best way to proceed. This results in better decision making. Seattle Pioneer

Excellent post, RK France! Good luck on your new job. Your advice to "start by asking" is the classic suggestion of the BSA on how to recruit new leadership ---and new Scouts. Since you have developed a good team of leaders in a relatively new unit, I'd say you have been practicing what you have suggested. You are to be congratulated in particular for not just developing the leadership needed for your own unit, but also a reserve (you) that can be drawn upon to help run the District. That's one of the byproducts of having well run units ---they can develope that surplus of leaders, while weak units need to have their leadership propped up by the District in various ways. One problem with "asking," though, is that leadership needed by units can be gobbled up by the District, leaving units short handed, and possibly short handed enough to nose dive. Another possible difficulty is that if unit leaders see their best people being recruited away, they will avoid sending people for training and roundtable. This kind of thing happened to me when I rejoined Scouting a year ago. I was encouraged to attend training and roundtables, which I did. But that brought me to the attention of District leaders, who were skilled in recruiting me to do other things, and I wound up leaving the unit I originally volunteered with. Perhaps there's such a thing at being too good at asking! Seattle Pioneer

Well, Mr. Bob White--- I have rarely seen a person get so many answers to his question and still claim that no one has bothered to reply. While you describe yourself as a long time, experienced Scouter, I frankly hope you don't treat boys and Scouters you deal with in the same condescending and pedantic manner that you display on these boards very commonly. While there is an argument for using such Socratic methods in a classroom environment in a search for the truth, those methods can be a way to express hostile and angry feelings that are far from the friendly and courteous methods recommended by Scouting. From your first post on this thread to the last one, you have displayed that kind of angry and condescending attitude, and now manage to have me down in the mud too. It's a good illustration of why that kind of approach is a poor one to use in Scouting. Seattle Pioneer

Hello, CNY Scouter, Wow, you had me cheering when you said you'd taken the initiative to get training in how to conduct a Roundtable, and then been asked to make a presentation! But you can't give up just because someone dropped the ball. Talk to the District Commissioner again and find out when you get make your presentation. And I'd start looking for names of the "young blood" you'd like to see filling more district positions, and feeding those names to your District Committee Chair. And follow up on those suggested appointments at District meetings, if need be. Again, I have to say I'm lucky, lucky, lucky. The dicstrict officer in my district are anxious to recruit ne people, and Unit Commissioners are polled each month for name to suggest. I'm afraid I haven't had any to contribute, and few others have either. But the District officers and DE are beating the bushes. Last year, they recruited me! Seattle Pioneer

Lots of good ideas in this thread. I'll add one more that was recommended during Cub Scout Training: the Conduct Candle. At the beginning of the meeting, a candle is lit, and remains lit as long as the Scout are behaving reasonably. If they aren't the candle is blown out for a period of time. When the candle burns down altogether, the Scouts get a nice treat. Seattle Pioneer

Interesting post Venividi. As I understand it, it's really the Scoumaster's job to determine whether a Scout has properly met leadership and Scout spirit requirements. And I don't think Scouting is doing its job if boys are allowed to skate and fail to meet reasonable standards for such requirements. One thing I've seen suggested is that Scoutmaster Conferences be used to set standards for how such requirements are to be met. For example, Scouts should understand that being present to perform cleanup jobs is essential if they are to advance in rank. And I don't think you need to wait for rank advancement time to have such a Scoutmaster conference. When the Scoutmaster becomes aware that a Scout is having such problems, he should investigate the nature of those problems and then make time for a Scoutmaster conference to discuss those problems with the Scout. If that discussion leads to the conclusion that the problem is real, then you can decide on setting goals that the Scout needs to concentrate on achieveing, and perhaps additional conferences can be scheduled after a couple of weeks or a month have gone by to review how that behavior has improved. Seattle Pioneer

Unfortunately, I think Beaver makes some good points. It's regrettably easy for bad Scouts to drive good Scouts out of a troop and out of Scouting. Frankly, I've probably been too chicken in dealing with these kinds of problems, often repeatedly correcting Scouts rather than making it clear that repeated bad behavior will not be tolerated. In my experience, this is a fairly common problem. I await with interest further comments on how to deal with this kind of situation. Seattle Pioneer