sctmom

He did 4-H last year and went to their summer camp the week after Boy Scout summer camp. Liked it better because they slept in bunkhouses, not tents with large spiders. But 4-H is too much like schoolwork for him, so he said he's not interested this year. I think you have to have a reason to be a Lone Scout, not just "oh, I don't like the troops". He needs the interaction with others away from me more than he needs do get things marked off in a book. One reason I have gone back to Cubs is for it to be "My thing" and not his. Also, to keep me away from Boy Scouts. I have told him that I will drop him off at Boy Scouts and come back to pick him up. I'm not sure if he can understand any difference. At one time, he wanted me to do that. Not that we ever speak to each other at Troop meetings. As soon as he joined the troop, I started planning other committments for campout weekends -- for my sake and his. I think of lot of it has to do with his lack of maturity. Part of his problem is also that he is NOT in charge at the troop and thinks he should be, he's now at the low end of the food chain again after being the top of the food chain in Cubs. Looked at Campfire USA but he is not interested. Also, some of it is he is just not interested in being anything like scouting right now. Yet, he has been trying to form his own "yu-gi-oh" (like Pokemon) club --- shaking my head. As his father pointed out, in the next year or so he will need to make some decisions and focus on one or 2 things. So, right now the focus is schoolwork (of course), band, and basketball/baseball. By the way, all of those do have him interacting with some great male role models and with other kids. I don't know a thing about band and I don't do the sports, just watch. So, I can't be too involved with those and he can't expect me to. We have a pretty good community league around here, not too competitive or overzealous. The coaches make it VERY clear that homework better be done before practice or games. I have seen so many boys in our area drop out at the end of Cubs without really trying Boy Scouts. My son did give it 6 months. Also, I know he gained so much from those 6 months. He knows that door is always open to go back. He still is friends with a few of the scouts from one of the other troops and they are transitioning adult leaders right now, hopefully for the better. The problems aren't BSA, the program is only as good as the volunteers. The same with any volunteer program. And even the volunteers are limited if the parents are pressing them to get their sons to Eagle and not be to strict on requirements. So many of the parents I have seen are only there for their son and getting the word EAGLE on his college app and resume. That's the worst part of all. I know many of the people on this board have went through that.

Okay, this is LONG post. I just want to clear up a few things with others on this board and even in my own mind. I have gone back to the list of troops in my area and to see if there is one that would be better for my son, if and when he decides to go back to scouting. Troop #1 I know some of these adults from Cubs. At a cub scout campout while my son and his friend set up their own tent and cooked full meals, their boys put a hotdog on a stick over the fire and called it cooking supper. Troop #2 When I talked to the Scoutmaster last year he said the do about 4 outings per year because there is only him and one ASM to go anywhere. I dont want to HAVE to go on every trip with the boys. Troop #3 Eagle mill, show up for activities and you get the merit badge, which to me is worse than being too hard on them about requirements. Troop #4 Boys set up tents and cook for the adults, while adults sit around in chairs and complain. The boys even make the coffee for the SM. Anyone heard of an adult patrol? There are a couple of others within driving distance I dont know a lot about. I did hear that at the recent camporee the First Year Webelos did as well as most troops in the competitions and most of the troops could not tie the knots in the competition. As a single mom of a boy, I try very hard to be aware of hovering and to be aware of the difference in boys and girls. In the spring we went on the first troop campout, along with some other new parents. One of the boys had a slight injury to his arm. While getting ready to go to sleep he wanted his mom to come help him change clothes. I told him to do the best he could, I would not go find her. I tried to tell him that the having mom help you change clothes is just not kewl and I thought he could manage (or sleep in his clothes like my son did). Yes, I bit my tongue a lot that weekend and had to turn my back sometimes. I realized that the next campout I needed to bring a book and some good walking shoes so I could find lots of other things to do AWAY from the boys. Also on that campout one of the new scouts was homesick. He came looking for me. I sat and talked with him for about 30 minutes until he felt like going to his tent. This was after I kicked my son out of my tent area because he was trying to sleep in my tent. Why did this kid come to me (didnt know me before that weekend) and not the men he had camped with the previous month? If a boy was caught LOOKING at the adult area, he was yelled at and had to do 10 pushups. Im not exagerrating. If the adults treat you that way, are you going to them when you have a serious problem to talk about? Ill be the first to tell you my son is immature and he likes to be the center of attention. Even when some of the men thought I would go to summer camp, I refused to consider it. The only way I would have gone if that was going to be the only way the boys got to summer camp. He did well at summer camp until I showed up, then he got tired and realized he was homesick. Thats why I think family night is a bad idea during the middle of the week at summer camp. I will never go to family night ever again on any night of the week. I got some not so nice looks from the other adults when I was at summer camp because I didnt yell at boys who walked up to the adult area to ask a question or just tell a story. No, I didnt let them interrupt adults, but there is a better way of handling it than barking at them. I also let a few stand there and look at my fancy camera, trying out the auto focus and telephoto lenses. Hey, maybe they would get interested in photography, so I casually mentioned the photography merit badge to plant that seed. Would any of the other adults have explained a camera to them? No, the response was what are you doing over here? Go away. All adults on Boy Scout camping need to know their place, which would include not breaking up that non-money poker game we saw from a distance, not walking unannounced into the boys area, not telling the boys how to eat (hey it was only on the ground for 10 seconds), not giving them ketchup when they lost their food in the troop trailer (go figure?), and letting the guys have their own time and conversations. I would do the same for girls and other adults. I dont think the adults working with the new scout patrol should be parents of any of those scouts. Sure some can handle it, but many of the adults cant and many of the boys cant. I tried to find things to do to help the troop that kept me far away from my son. I even considered not letting him in my van when I drove on trips. As my son matures he may want to go back to Scouting. He and I have talked about how you will never find the perfect troop and how you have to weigh the pros and cons of anything. He really has tried going back but by the time we get to the meeting, he wont get out of the car. Its just that bad to him right now. Im not blaming the adults at that troop. The spent a lot of time talking to him a few months ago about why he wanted to quit. Their campouts are so stressful (unorganized, yelling, no plan, hurried, no lights out time, etc.) he doesnt want to ever camp again. I cant even get him to go with me alone or to a Cub Scout family campout (where he would be the Older Boy). If he is needing a lot of one on one attention from anyone at the troop, then he doesnt belong there. I dont want to take away from the other boys. I guess Im saying all of this because I want you to know I am NOT trashing BSA and Im NOT bashing men ( I Like men and I want my son to grow up to be one). Also, Im not the softy, over-reacting stereotypical mother. Im the first to say get over it, life is not fair. brush yourself off and move on. I just dont want my son to think that being a man means yelling at people to get them to do something and thumping your chest saying we dont want no women around here. Wanting to be apart is fine, but to have some blanket policy about all women is absurd. Then to hide behind the boys want it is even more absurd. The same with I was told the boys dont mind doing pushups as punishment. Okay, maybe they dont tell you they mind but did you ask that kid you havent seen since the last campout? More importantly is it really an effective means of discipline, is it really necessary? Give those overprotective moms the job of Adult Patrol Cook, moms often love to feed people, that will keep her busy and happy AND you get well fed. Encourage her to find a quiet place away from the boys for her sake to read or relax.

I like the toilet water cleaning method! LOL It's hard to stop kids from having a pen in their pocket. I see a great reason for not carrying the bookbags -- ever walked through a crowd of kids with bookbags on their shoulders? The bookbags themselves are weapons! At least our kids get to carry bookbags and they don't have to be see through. It seems that the school doesn't want to deal with the real problems, just make blanket rules. Same as the other discussions about pocket knives and oversized keychains. One time some kids in our small town got caught spray painting signs. Their punishment was to clean the signs at 6:00 on Saturday evening AFTER the cops got word around town as to where and when this would take place. Then everyone rode by and waved.

I just wonder how many of the "boy's ideas" are really the boys or is it what they think the adults want or what they have heard the adults say. As a teenager I know that I went along with what my parents wanted or what I thought they wanted (at least in front of them I did..hehe). If the boys don't like Scoutmaster Joe on the campout, can they keep him from going. I am more suited for Cubs, even though I am probably more willing to walk away and have the boys do for themselves than many other adults. You don't know how many men I have seen take a tent out of a boys hands because "he wasn't doing it right". It's a modern day tent, there isn't much you can do wrong. It's up or it's not. As for women in Boy Scouting, I hear many people say "oh, start by being a merit badge counselor". To me that is the last place a woman needs to be in Boy Scouting. The boys need to see MEN that have those careers or hobbies. My son KNOWS that moms have hobbies, he doesn't know that about men. As much as I like to cook, I would not teach the Cooking merit badge because boys need to see men cooking. They need to see men collect stamps, have jobs as cooks, do photography as a hobby, etc.

This is not really related to scouting, but then again maybe because this is how the boys are being treated at school. My middle school child was sick earlier this week, stomach virus that is going around. When he returned to school on Wednesday I reminded him to go to the restroom as often as possible to avoid any "accidents". He then informed me that they are not allowed to go to the bathrooms between classes. The bathrooms have been locked! I called the school to clarify. This is a public middle school of 800 students in a middle class neighborhood, we don't have gangs of kids roaming the street. Some of the kids have been writing on the bathroom walls, so to "solve" the problem the principal has locked the bathrooms. The teachers have keys and take the students once or twice a day as a class. If a child needs to go at any other time, they can use THE restroom at the front of the school. This is also the school where kids aren't allowed to go to their locker during the day. The principal finally gave in and they get to go there once during the middle of the day. Otherwise, they "waste valuable class time going to the lockers between classes". They MUST leave their backpacks in their lockers. There aren't enough lockers, so some kids are sharing and can't fit 2 backpacks into these little lockers. There are no plans to get more lockers. Is it just me or does this sound nuts? The parents haven't been notified of any of this. We only hear through I children. Lots of information on the school website about football games but not about these "policies". When I talked to the secretary about the bathrooms being locked I asked if this was permanent. I was told "I don't know, it's what the principal decided." Does this teach the children anything? Shouldn't something else be done before locking the bathrooms? Is this our society's way of solving problems? Before you suggest it, I would homeschool but must work being a single parent. Have even tried to figure out a way to do both, but can't seem to do that.

What about the boys who have no problem with mom along? They are being told something is wrong with them for wanting mom around or more accurately, not being upset about mom being there. I've been on overnighters with my son. For the most part, the only time I heard from him was when he wanted money. It's okay for a man to join Boy Scouting to spend time with his son (see other threads about balance), but it is NOT okay for a mom to join for the same reason. What if the boys want to have troop meetings only once a month? Is that okay? What if the boys decide to never camp? Is that okay? Mainly it is very clear that Boy Scouting is not for every boy. There are other organizations out there that do reach out to all kids. I'm not even going to pretend I can change Boy Scouting at any level, regardless of if it is being done right or wrong.

"Again, if you're describing a fight against a man (SM, CC, etc.), whose creating policy to suit his own desires, I agree completely. If you're describing a fight that would deny the CO or the boys' their right to create such a policy, I say take your feminism elsewhere. " Because of this attitude and some other reasons, I AM taking my feminism elsewhere, along with my time, money and skills. It is obvious that I can't be compassionate or be myself around Boy Scouts without being wrong, and I live in an area that is full of people who don't want to follow any rules or methods of Boy Scouting, so I'm through banging my head against that wall. Find me with the cubs and other groups. Also, apparently my son is not for Boy Scouts since he doesn't want to camp every month and I don't have him focused on being Eagle at 13 years old.

I looked for a definite answer the other day and could not find one in the Wolf Book or the Leader's handbook. A scout could keep doing the same 10 activities over and over, but if that is happening I think it is time for the den leader and the parents to have a talk about the purpose of the electives.

Bob White, I was not trying to say that BSA is just out to make money off of uniforms. BSA wants the boys to wear the brown uniforms in Webelos for other reasons. The new Webelos badge does NOT go on the Blue Uniform. At some point the old Webelos badge will go away, right? I know it is still an option. You read something into my post that wasn't there.

The key to remember about doing belt loops more than once is that each boy should do HIS best. My son knew a lot more about baseball as a 5th grader than he did as a 1st grader. He could meet the requirements as a first grader. As a 5th grader I expected more out of him than just how many outs in an inning. Most of the boys I know did outgrow their blue shirts by end of 4th grade. There was one kid whose parents insisted on him wearing his blue shirt until crossover. There he stood in this tight blue shirt while all the other boys had on their brown shirt. They had plans for him to go on to Boy Scouting, they could have at least bought it the week before crossover. I also saw this same kid at middle school the other day with a t-shirt with large letters that said "Elementary school". I don't buy stuff for my son just because it's the latest fashion but even my son is leary about wearing his elementary school t-shirts to middle school. Personally, I think getting 2 years out of a shirt is a great deal.

Yaworski is right about the uniform. BSA "wants" you to buy a new uniform at the beginning of Webelos. Personally I'm still telling parents to wait until it fits. Some packs in the past few years were including Tigers and some weren't. Our pack was including Tigers. The new books aren't a big change for the pack itself. The Cubmaster always gives the Tigers a plastic "tiger claw" (bear claw from the scout store) if they come to the pack meeting. This was started years ago and is still being done. It gives the Tigers a chance to be up in front of the pack and an incentive to attend the pack meeting. We put them on a piece of plastic to be worn as a necklace or from the belt. I'm not very familiar with the new Tiger book. I do know it is more structured than the previous Tiger program, which I think is a good thing. Marbles would be a good belt loop for Tigers to do indoors. Use tape to make the circle on the floor. Look through Baloo's Bugle at www.cubmaster.org for ideas for den meetings, crafts, games, and food. Baloo's Bugle is a monthly online newsletter. You might get some ideas from past issues of things for the Tigers to do. What "ideas book" are you referring to as a bunch of crock? Program helps? If that is the one, it is a beginning not a be-all for meetings. Take some of the ideas from it that are listed for Wolves, if your boys can do them. Do some unconventional things -- play board games, play video games, watch a video -- then talk about playing fair or something to tie it into scouts. Something, anything, to keep the families involved. You are right if the leader does "nothing" people will drop out. Shared leadership is a great theory but the parents are still looking at YOU to be THE leader. Sounds like you are on the right track. I like the "fun with books" idea.

Rculver, you are very right. If you look at Program Helps, it has plans for 4 den meetings a month AND a pack meeting. Tigers it has 2 den meetings, 1 field trip and 1 pack meeting. I think it depends on the families in your area. I know where I live if we had a pack meeting and a den meeting in the same week, we would only get people at one of those.

Acco40, The Webelos are transitioning to the brown uniform at the end of 3rd grade now. So, the blue one doesn't have to fit as long. Tigerleader, Remember the boys have a long time to do belt loops & pins. Focus on fun. Do some of the fun things in Program Helps and the Cub Scout Leader How-To book. Play a lot of games when they get together. If you do too much, some people get burnt out.

Up until about a year ago, Tigers were not officially part of the Cub Scout Pack. Tigers was a stand alone program. Rumor has it that eventually the Tigers will wear the blue shirt. Better make sure everyone buys it big enough to last 3 years!

Baloo is for "pack overnighters". Baloo training does not teach outdoor skills, it teaches how to PLAN a FAMILY campout ---- approved places to camp, suggestions for cooking, types of tents to use, planning of a games & activites for the families, etc. First year Webelos can go camping as a den. From everything I have read BSA does encourage Webelos to camp with troops. It is a chance for the boys and the adults to get to know a troop and understand the Boy Scout program. The two things to remember is that Webelos need an adult along with them and the troop should be focusing on the Webelos. One troop and one den camping together is a great idea. That is what is supposed to happen. Webelos should NOT attend camporees for troops. Many areas have Webelos Woods or Webelos-o-ree, many troops & Webelos dens where the Boy Scouts teach the Webelos scout skills and maybe have some competition. I know my Webelos loved that in the spring of the 4th grade, the parents also loved it (we learned how to read a compass!).

Our pack has a history of den meetings twice a month, each one hour long and the pack meeting once a month. Some dens have meet every week, except the week of the pack meeting and they really liked doing that (the parents and the boys liked it). I have try to have the boys meet every week. Since we meet on a Monday, we have some weeks that are hard to do like Labor day. Also, our school is on a new schedule where the kids have a week off every few months. A lot of the kids (mine included) go out of town that week -- family vacation, visit relatives, etc. So we don't meet on that month. Three den meetings a month is NOT too much. Cub Scouts has been meeting weekly for many, many decades. It has worked. Go for it. Hate to be picky, BUT let's all get our terminology straight. Cub Scouts belong to "dens" (one age group) that meet together once a month as "packs". Boy Scouts belong to "patrols" that come together as a "troop". Girl Scouts belong to "troops" from the day they join. They may or may not have "patrols".

Do you have a Committee Chair you could talk to? How about a Unit Commissioner? If you don't have a Unit Commissioner, contact your Assistant District Commissioner for Cub Scouting. That person should be able to help you. The BSA Family Program is great. I wish more people would look into it. You may also try getting the parents from your den to attend committee meetings. Talk up the Cub Scout leader book, training, pow wow and such in front of the Cubmaster. Maybe "suggest for her sake" that someone else is appointed as Treasurer -- to "take the pressure off the CM". Make it sound like it is all to make her life easier. How much longer do you think she will be there? Will she leaves when her son does?

I'm not the advancement chair but do feel for her as she receives things like CubRgr described -- phone calls, emails, scribbled notes, stopped in a meeting, etc. I also find myself wondering if a boy has earned belt loops or other items related to the rank advancements we have done. It is time consuming to look it up. Most of the parents seem to think that the den leader is going to handle all of it. I've talked to parents this year that don't know what their son earned last year (I was a graduating Webelos Leader last year, a Bear Den leader this year). They don't know what the boys should have earned, if they earned it, what are arrow points, etc. Wonder why our pack is shrinking?????

CL, Thanks. That's what I figured. The online thing looks great IF all your leaders agree to use it. The key to any system (automated or not) is that people have to use it. We have leaders that don't check their email, so I can't expect them to update software. For my dens I've been using the Excel tracking spreadsheets found at the Cub Scout Virtual Leader's website. I printout the "detail" sheet that lists all the scouts and carry that to meetings. Then I can just check off the requirements that have been met. Much easier than writing them all down.

These mothers would complain no matter what. If they weren't familiar with Girl Scouts they would just find some other way to say "you are being mean to my baby". Once I heard a parent ask the Kindergarden teachers "how do you put up with these kids all day without screaming?" The teachers all started laughing and said "but we do scream sometimes!". Even the professionals lose their patience some time.

Girl Scouts *should* start relying on youth leadership around 4th or 5th grade. They are supposed to start from Kindergarten in letting the girls make choices. By 4th grade the girls are choosing what they want to do in meetings and where they want to take field trips. They also should be starting at that age to make plans for the trips and meetings. By they time they are in 6th grade (same age as Boy Scouts), they should be doing a lot of the planning and arranging of meetings and activities. In reality, that may not happen. Girl Scouts troops have the same problems that Boy Scout troops have of having adults that want too much control.

I don't carry a knife at work or home. I do make sure I have a small knife or multi-tool around when camping or scouting. I carried a very small "pen" knife as a high schooler, even though I'm female. I worked in a hardware store and a knife was very handy. Grew up in a small town and have to agree with Yaworski. Every year teenagers were killed in cars. Most everyone had knives and guns. Boys went hunting before school, had shotguns and rifles in plain view in their trucks. Every now and then some idiot would threaten to cut someone, but these same kids would nowadays just break the rules and still carry a knife. You can regulate stupidity. School administators over react. I talked to some Scouts from a more rural area of Georgia a few months ago. They said if they realize they have their knife at school, they just go hand it in at the office and pick it up at the end of the day. Some of these boys work on farms and hunt, so a knife is part of life for them. So are guns. They know how dangerous they can be and they know how to respect them. They also know to respect other people. A year or so ago in Atlanta a very young girl was suspended for having a "weapon". It was a large Tweety Bird on a keychain. Her parents found another school for her mainly because of the stupidity of the administrators at that school.

To volunteer, contact your local Girl Scout council. I think the national website will point you to the council for your area.

I heard about the increase months ago. Actually I think I heard about it on another scouting disucssion board.

They aren't just paying for the popcorn, they are helping scouts. Sure you can buy cheaper popcorn but does it help put a smile on a kid's face? People seemed more receptive when my son said "we are raising money to help go camping". Just name anything that the pack does. Camping is something every identifies with scouts, so it worked. Our pack gets 30 to 40% of the profit, we don't do individual accounts at the pack level. The pack needs money to buy all those awards and stuff. Takes more than you realize at first.