sctmom

It was my understanding that Girl Scout leaders must take overnight camping training before taking girls camping. They also must have a First Aid trained person with them at such outings. The incidents you described may have been trained leaders just not real smart leaders. How many times in BSA have we seen trained leaders who blatantly ignore the rules?

I've been told by Girl Scout leaders they had to go through a weekend of training to take the girls to ANY type of camping. Also, they have to have a First Aid/CPR trainged person along.

Scoutparent writes: "Evolution is a hoax perpetrated on much of the world. It's interesting to me that if you look at gallup poll results; most Americans do not buy into this hoax" Hmmmmm... According to the Gallup poll on the link Littlebillie gave, it says "about 45 percent of American adults take the Bibles story of creation literally. " When did 45 percent become "most"? I thought "most" meant majority, as in over half.

When you say "Tiger parents taking off" do you mean they leave their child at the meeting? Someone stands at the door and when the parents arrive and try to just "drop and run" you say "I'm sorry your child cannot stay unless you stay". No matter what their excuse is, stand firm. The answere is NO. The Cubmaster's duties are explained in the Cub Scout Leader handbook. You need to sit down with the parents, either as a group or one by one and explain the situation. Without involvement, there is no Cub Scouts. Cub Scouting is about families. They can have some great times with their son, but they MUST be there.

Scientific theory is based on facts. How many things do you believe that are "beyond a doubt"? Very few things are "beyond doubt". The Genesis story doesn't have any fact proved 'beyond doubt'. It is something you have choosen NOT to doubt. That's your choice. "As for evolution not having any holes, there are many men (and women) who are very knowledgeable in the sciences that disagree." As for a literal translation of the Genesis creation story not having any holes, any men and women who are very knowledgeable in religion disagree. I'm talking about men and women who are well-respected by many religions, not just some wacko on the street corner who made up their own "religion".

LISTEN! Where I live the schools DO celebrate Christmas. They decorate for Christmas -- trees, angels, wreaths, etc. They have Christmas spelling words. My son's social studies book talks about the believes of Christians. This is a book used throughout the nation. (don't have the name and publisher handy). Is that not equal time to Evolution??????????? Why do you believe it is NOT taught in schools? Maybe some schools, but it is taught in many. The school has the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. If the school systems are so anti-Christian wouldn't they say "no" to that group?

Scoutparent writes: "Of course evolution is not science but a form of religion or anti religion. Don't kid yourself. " You're joking right? Evolution is a form of religion or anti religion???? ::::shaking my head in disbelief::::: Evolution is science theory. YOU are the one making it out to be a bigger thing than it is.

Rooster writes "So what exactly does this mean in regards to the founding fathers who established the U.S. government some 100 to 150 years later. Did you know of a specific Declaration of Independence signer who wanted to put similar laws in the Constitution? My point is Your history may be correct (there were some laws that discriminated against people of various faiths), but your conclusion is wrong (the signers at least collectively did not want this kind of discrimination perpetuated in the new government). In short, I think your comment is an unfair and damning generalization that defames the character of some our greatest and most moral leaders. " Rooster, I said "forefathers" which includes many people other than just those that signed the Declaration of Independence and those that signed the Constitution.

For Rooster: From the "Laws and Ordinances for New Netherland 1638 - 1674" The Director General and council have been credibly informed that not only conventicles and meetnis have been held here and there in this province but also that unqualified persons presume in such meetings to act as teachers, in interpreting and expounding God's Holy Word, without ecclesiatical or secular authority. This is contrary to the general rules, political and ecclesiastical, of our fatherland; and, besides, such gatherings lead to trouble, heresies, and schisms. The director general and council, however, do not hereby intend to force the consciences of any, to the the prejudice of formely given patents, or to forbid the preaching of God's Holy Word, the use of family prayers, and divine services in the the family; but only all public and private conventicles and gatherings, be they in public or private houses, except the already mentioned usual and authorized religious services of the Reformed.

Maybe it's because my son just hasn't gotten that far in school yet, but I haven't seen what the teach about evolution. What I have seen is that every year there is a Christmas wreath on the outside of the school building, a tree in the foyer and the kids make Christmas tree ornaments. Also, my son's Social Studies book this year has a chapter about the beginning of Christianity. It also talks about some other religions that began about the same time. It does not say one is right or wrong, just here are the basic facts of what that group believes. Then some discussion questions about finding out more about the beliefs. Isn't that the equal to the evolution theories?

"Government sponsored education is unconditionally, fundamentally unconstitutional. But again, I want to reiterate, the government has no constitutional authority to educate anyone. " The Federal Government DOES NOT educate people, the state governments do. The state has the right (and I believe obligation) to provide education for its citizens. Article X of the Bill of Rights The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. The founding fathers DID believe in public education. Go to your library and look for a set of books called "The Annals of America" published by Britannica. It has many original documents and letters from the beginning of this country until now.

What do you do about boys from one den going to 2 different troops? Two ceremonies or both troops? At my son's crossover, some of the boys had not decided yet what troop to join. So they crossed over, the SM that was there shook their hand, removed their blue shoulder loops, etc. The boys that joined his troop later got a troop t-shirt, something he would have normally handed to them at the crossover.

In the Bible Zealots are a particular group of people who were so caught up in the rituals of religion they forgot the real meaning behind their religion. Merriam Webster says: zealot(capitalized) : a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century A.D. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine Today zealot can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending how what is being talked about. I have to agree with littlebillie "Finally, finding MORE quotes - does that really matter? " Also, we can each read the same sentence and get a different meaning from it. Read some of the laws that were written by our forefathers that no longer are in existence and you will be mighty glad they got changed. Many of the colonies had laws about who could teach religion in their home. This would keep you from running our own Bible study group in our home. Many of the forefathers were only wanting freedom for their type of Christianity, everyone else go away. The Christian forefathers had no tolerance for others. I know personally of many "Christians" that have no tolerance for others outside of their church. I really mean NO tolerance! That is why I did not attend church for many years. Luckily I've now found a group who are tolerant.

I look at it more as a graduation. You don't have to go to college to get to participate in the high school graduation. If the boys have meet the requirements to leave Cubs and go to Boy Scouting (age or AOL), then they are part of the cross over. Our pack gave all the boys a Boy Scout handbook at crossover/graduation. They may not go to Boy Scouts this week but maybe, just maybe, they will look at that book and change their mind. Also, not all boys may be crossing over to the same troop. Would you make them have different ceremonies?

It depends on your volunteer role as to what you are getting yourself into when you sign up. If someone is not at a meeting, they need to make sure another person represents their interests. Most of the time you will not have 100% of the committee there, if it is like most groups I've seen. I also agree that very little must be voted on. If I can't attend a meeting that I know an important issue will be discussed, I talk to another leader before the meeting and after the meeting.

Talk to the parents and the boys. Have poster board and marker, have the boys come up with den rules. Lead them to the right ones. Maybe institute a 3 strikes youre out type of deal. The 3rd time you are called down, you leave the meeting. Tell the parents you must have their help. One of the hardest thing to learn is that as the leader you are the leader of the boys AND the parents. About the leader who spends a lot of time yelling at her own kid, I found it helped if one of the men in the pack just walked past my son and said come with me. They would get him busy with something, sometimes talk to him about treating me right, sometimes just made him sit and settle down. Realize I did thank them when they did this and pointed out to the other parents to feel free to get on to my child. Some parents arent like that. Realize the boys will be active, but they must still respect the leaders and others. If not, they will be asked to leave. Same for parents and siblings. Location, location, location. Is your meeting room too big or too small? Are there distractions in the meeting place? No parents, boys or leaders should leave the meeting upset. Both of you have described situations that should NEVER exist. Kwc, Fourteen boys is too many for one den, especially Webelos. That den must be split immediately. If the boys have been sent into separate rooms, they STAY THERE. Even it means you stand in the doorway and physically block them. Kwc, I think your comparison to sports is a good one. Unfortunately the parents you are dealing with may also be the ones who yell at coaches during games for pulling their son out of the game. This past spring I saw the son of one of the coachs argue with the umpire. I mean look him in the eye and argue! I was shocked this boy was not pulled out of the game. Dad just looked the other way. I told my son if I EVER saw him act that way, I would personally go on the field and pull him out of the game. He was not happy with some things the coach had him do and was not happy with some of the calls against him, but you respect the ones in charge. Personally, I would never use a candle because of 2 reasons: 1) chance of fire on purpose or accidently 2) the boys that would spend the whole meeting looking and playing with the candle (that would be MY son) Use the quiet sign. Just stand there saying nothing and staring at the ceiling until they finally realize you are there. May take awhile. When talking to the boys, get down on their level. If they are on the floor, get on the floor. Don't do like one den leader I knew -- he had the boys lined up in chairs with their books and he sat behind a table. It looked and felt like school.

Ed, I grew up going to a private school that my parents helped found. My parents were always involved. Now, as a kid, I was embarrased to see my father show up at school but that only happened a few times. I told my sister I should tell these school people if they don't behave I'll get my family after them, hehehe. My son is also learning to stand up and ask questions. He is in an "elective" class called study skills. He already knows everything they are doing in this class. He is doing the work even though it is a repeat for him. After 6 weeks, he went on his own to the teacher and explained that he knows this stuff, is doing yet again in another class and would like to change to Technology. The teacher said "no, we can't do that until January". I was so proud of my son for taking the initiave. Yet, his friend screwed around in the class, so they took him out and moved him to P.E. Even my 11 year old realizes this is backwards! Screw up, go to fun class, do well, stay in boring class. My favorite story about my parents talking to school administrators is about my mother. She was running the lunch room that year at the school. We had a coach that talked mean to students and called them "piss ants" among other things. One day he had my sister's P.E. class cleaning up the football field. My sister said there were ants in the clump of grass she picked up and she threw it down. He called her a "pissant". The next day my mother cornered this guy. My mother is about 5'6" and this man was about the same size. My mother told him quietly and calmly "I don't want to EVER hear you call ANY student a pissant again. I sleep with one of the board members and will have YOUR JOB!" He backed away like a whipped puppy. He wasn't smart enough to know she meant she sleeps with her husband! We were the only people within 50 miles with that last name!

I do happen to know the school board member from our part of the county. Don't know him well, but enough that he has stopped and spoke and recognizes me. I also know a middle school assistant principal from a neighboring county. Wow, the contacts you make in Scouting and at church! I am trying to decipher the school district website to figure out what the chain of command is. Man, I should have made those Webelos learn that last year for the Scholar badge! The PTO is for fundraising and teacher appreciation. The overall attitude is what is really steaming me. The attitude of "we don't have to tell you what we do" and the attitude that an 11 year old can't go down the hall alone. I think all of us in scouting know that if you get a child age-approriate responsibility, they will rise to the occasion. If you treat them like imbeciles, they will also rise to the occasion. The kindergardeners walk to the bathroom alone! Yet, the 6th graders can't? When my son was in 1st grade the teachers did have to take the liquid soap out of the boy's bathroom because the boys found out if you put it on the floor you can slide very well! They didn't ban the bathroom, they just carried the soap to the boys or made them wash their hands in the classroom. Not a big to do, just handle it. I feel that as a taxpayer and a parent, the school staff work for ME. They should keep me informed and want my opinion. This woman made it clear that SHE was in CHARGE and I needed to get with the program. grrrr Picket signs --- Got restrooms? Has your child got to go today? I also like the "just say go".

There are not being denied access to the bathroom, just have to go to the front office and use the one bathroom up there. It's could be a long walk if you gotta go NOW! And I know a lot of kids who wait until the last minute or just don't get "early warning signals".

I finally talked to the principal of this school. The reason the bathrooms are locked is that some students take too much time wandering to and from the bathroom and miss "important class time". Also, I was told repeatedly "all middle schools around here do this, why is it a surprise?" and "ANYONE with experience with middle school knows about this". "Well I haven't heard from anyone else". Then she tried to tell me about keeping the kids safe -- I let her know that I'm a BSA leader and we all talk about how the schools don't come close to keeping kids safe! So, we are telling the students "we don't trust you to walk across the hall to the bathroom and back in a timely manner"? Why not punish those who spend 30 minutes in there every day? I asked my son if this had caused problems for anyone and he said yes, some students have been very close to not getting there on time. Then you have to hope that no one is in that ONE bathroom everyone uses. The other great thing I was told "Even once we start a newsletter, we wouldn't put something this minor it. We can't let you know of EVERY little rule change we do." :::::steam coming out of my ears::::::::: Where next? PTO? School Board? Picketing outside the school? Letters to the paper?

What the Cub Scouts learn is different than what the Boy Scouts learn about LNT. This new award for the Cubs is for "frontcountry" not "back country". It doesn't talk about camping or campfires. A few thoughts I have are: Clean up trash in a park. Get trash containers installed in a park. Create posters or flyers to educate others.

Laura, I have the same question! I thought of contacting the local/state LNT organization and asking them. Hopefully someone will know.

Actually it is WE'll BE LOyal Scouts

All of the above has been very well said. Yes, the uniform is important. Was at a pack meeting last night, all those Wolves in their basically new uniforms looked so sharp. They still had lots of fun, even wiggling around on the floor -- just watch out for those falling neckerchief slides. I saw one leader very quietly explain to a young boy how to wear his temporary patches that had hang loops, as she moved the one from the left pocket to the right. Since one had just been received at that meeting, she told him to pick his favorite and only wear it next time. Wasn't a boy in her den, just a Cub Scout needing a little guidance. The Scout uniform shirt is the one shirt my son really understands must be tucked in and worn properly. Even young boys can take great pride in their uniform.

Have you heard about this one? It can be earned by Cub Scouts (tigers, wolves, bears and webelos) and by Cub Scout leaders. My local council has flyers, your's may as well. You can also download the flyer at http://www.cubpack175.org/LeaveNoTrace.htm Here are the basics: Cub Scout Leave No Trace Front Country Guidelines 1. Plan ahead proper clothing, sunscreen, drinking water, use the buddy system. 2. Stick to the trails 3. Manage your pet keep your pet on a leash and clean up after it. 4. Leave what you find do not pick flowers or plants. Use established restrooms. 5. Respect other visitors 6. Trash your trash pack it in, pack it out For Cubs to earn the award: 1. Discuss with your leader or parent/guardian the importance of the Leave No Trace frontcountry guidelines. 2. On three separate outings practice the frontcountry guidelines of Leave No Trace. 3. Tigers complete Acheivement 5, Wolves complete Requirement 7, Bears complete Requirement 12, and Webelos earn the Outdoorsman activity badge. 4. Participate in a Leave No Trace-related service project. 5. Promise to practice the Leave No Trace frontcountry guidelines by signing the Cub Scout Leave No Trace Pledge. 6. Draw a poster to illustrate the Leave No Trace frontcountry guidelines and display it at a pack meeting. For Cub Scout Leaders to earn the award: 1. Discuss with your dens Cub Scouts or your pack leaders the importance of the Leave No Trace frontcountry guidelines. 2. On three separate outings demonstrate and practice the frontcountry guidelines for Leave No Trace. 3. Participate in presenting a den, pack, district or council awareness session on Leave No Trace frontcountry guidelines. 4. Participate in a Leave No Trace-related service project. 5. Commit yourself to the Leave No Trace frontcountry guidelines by signing the Cub Scout Leave No Trace Pledge. 6. Assist at least three boys in earning Cub Scoutings Leave No Trace Awareness Award. The Cub Scout Leave No Trace Pledge Card is printed on the brochure. It says I promise to practice the Leave No Trace frontcountry guidelines wherever I go: 1) Plan ahead 2) Stick to trails 3) Manage your pet 4) Leave what you find 5) Respect other visitors 6) Trash your trash.